From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Aug 31 21:03:49 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, August 31 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1010 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: power valves fsj: Re: Opportunity! fsj: ILOVEYOU fsj: re: TX Humor fsj: Re: re: TX Humor fsj: Re: Re: re: TX Humor fsj: Re: re: TX Humor fsj: Re: Re: re: TX Humor fsj: AllExperts Question about PCVs Re: [fsj: Power valve vs. accel. pump] Re: [fsj: Power valve vs. accel. pump] fsj: Anyone have Tom Beddy's (sp??) email addr??? Re: [fsj: Power valve vs. accel. pump] FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 04:50:30 -0600 From: bradley.a.berry-at-lmco.com Subject: fsj: power valves Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 11:04:30 -0500 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: Power valve vs. accel. pump Landon, The power valve and accelerator pump are totally different items. From my experience rebuilding (Read: "making dysfunctional") Holley carbs, the accelerator pump is on the bottom of the fuel bowl, and fuel drains into it by gravity. When you hit the gas, you mechanically pull the throttle blades open, and your engine experiences a temporary lean condition, until the venturi effect of the air flowing through the carb pulls the extra gas through the carbs jets. The accelerator pump is mechanically connected to the throttle plates by a cam, and counters the lean condition by squirting raw fuel into the venturis to keep your mixture ratio about 14:1. The accelerator pump is on the bottom front of our motorcrafts too, but I haven't inspected mine. I would assume that, like a Holley, if the diaphragm in the accel pump dies, you would possibly get external leakage, but as this pump has to force fuel up and into the venturis, it probably wouldn't "dump" fuel into your engine. On a Holley, the accelerator nozzles are above the venturi, so there is no suction on them, I assume this is the case for the motorcraft as well. (Otherwise it would be another jet!) The power valve, or economizer valve, is an internal component which supplements the fuel flow through the jets. Your jets are set for something around normal driving where you have relatively high vacuum. At this time, your valve is sucked closed. When you romp on the gas, the accel pump smoothes out your lean condition, but now you're flowing a lot more air, and your jets won't let enough fuel in to keep up, so the power valve pops open and allows additional fuel to flow into the carb. I haven't inspected the internal passages lately so I'm not sure how the fuel through this valve is metered, but the bottom line is, if this diaphragm is blown out, you'll be dumping extra fuel down your carb continuously. Hmmm... I wonder if this might be why my mileage went to the dumpster too... Brad 88 GW '89 GW, mostly stock. Symptoms: bad gas mileage, brown smoke when I push on the accelerator more than a little. In the Motorcraft 2150 carb, if you go to NAPA and ask for a Power valve, they will give you what the Haynes manual calls an 'Economizer Valve', even if what you thought you wanted in the first place was an accelerator pump. Confused ? Me, too. I'm just gonna have to get the factory shop manual. What's the part that is likely to go bad and dump fuel into the engine? Is it the 'economizer valve', or the accelerator pump ? Both ? There is a vacuum line below the accelerator pump that looks like it should lead to the evap canister. There is a hole, just to the lower left of the accelerator pump on the front of the carb, that looks like it should have a vacuum fitting, possibly for the distributor ? Distributor vacuum is currently fed from the front passenger side of the carb. Last question: The spring inside the accelerator pump - for my outside-in configuration of lever, housing, diaphragm assy, spring, little orange diaphragm, the Haynes manual shows the spring tapered with small end toward the inside, so that it acts directly on the little orange diaphragm. For the other accelerator pump configurations, it shows the spring tapered with small end to the outside. Is this a misprint ? Thanks for any help/intelligence besides go get Holley ProJection. - - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:49:57 -0500 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: Re: Opportunity! Hey, we got it out last night. FYI the hinge cover plates are held in by 4 screws, so no need to pry them open with a screwdriver(did I do that ?). Also got a carb, an oil cap, and a Wells electronic module. The wag was pretty complete, surprised nobody put wheels on it, and a battery, and drove it home. The carb looks ancient compared to the I've got on the '89. The tailgate is in pretty good shape, though I don't know about the window and mechanism (weatherstripping was mostly gone) - - Landon Megan Kershner wrote: > The warning sticker in my '84 says to remove the hinge cover plates and > then close the tailgate 'till its almost closed. Then remove the bolts. > The torsion springs will spring if you do it with the tailgate down and > you could get seriously injured. > > pk > > -----Original Message----- > From: Landon Tesar [SMTP:r16884-at-email.sps.mot.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 7:42 AM > To: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: Opportunity! > > Hi, > > My friend's brother is selling the junkyard. It's got two mid-80s GWs > in varying disrepair. I need to scavenge promptly. What do you > suggest. My wag is in pretty good shape other than some rust in rear > driver's side door, and couple spots under the weatherstripping on the > rear quarter panel. The back window needs a helping hand to get up and > down, and this seems to be a trouble spot, so I thought I'd get the > whole tailgate, and a carb. > Any tips on removing the tailgate ? Where does the wiring harness > disconnect ? > Any other - you oughtta get this, it's ridiculously priced at the dealer > or NLS ? > > - Landon > 89 GW ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:00:14 -0500 From: Roy Kesmodel Subject: fsj: ILOVEYOU Has anyone contacted Alan directly to let him know that HE has become infected? Perhaps he has been camping in the woods with no access to TV, radio, newspaper, email, or other human contact and thus hasn't heard of the "ILOVEYOU" virus :->. Seriously tho, Alan, this is a nasty and persistent little bugger. Search the net for all the info you can on how to disinfect your computer. The McAfee http://www.mcafeeb2b.com/asp_set/anti_virus/alerts/intro.asp and Symantec http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/vinfodb.html sites are particularly good. Depending on the version you have, you have at least lost all .jpg (picture) files on your hard drive. DO NOT OPEN ANY OF THEM to see if they are OK. They are now copies of the virus and will reinfect your machine. Good luck. * Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:45:12 -0400 * From: "Alan" * Subject: fsj: ILOVEYOU * * kindly check the attached LOVELETTER coming from me. * ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:45:32 -0500 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: re: TX Humor was 104 yesterday. The wag has good ventilation, though(fsj content). Didn't really bother me that much. Can you get numb from heat ? If you've never seen it, pick up a copy of the movie 'True Stories' It captures North TX pretty well, though it's 14 yrs old. - - Landon 'Twas summer now and Satan lay By a prickly pear to rest. The sweat rolled off his swarthy brow So he took off his coat and vest. "By Golly," he finally panted, "I did my job too well, I'm going back to where I came from, Texas is hotter than Hell! =================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:57:53 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: Re: re: TX Humor I haven't lived in Texas [Well, if you count in utero, I have. Thank God the USAF transferred Dad back to Great Falls BEFORE I was born, or (shudder) I'd be a Texan!] but I did live in Carlsbad, NM and spent time in Guadeloupe NP, so I can Know what you mean. Loved those 120deg days where you had to where welders gauntlets to open the car door, reach in, start it and run the A/C for 20 minutes before you could get in without 3rd. degree burns. Lived in Rapid City, SD, same deal. Here it didn't even get into the 70's yesterday, and we actually had some rain, without wind or lightning, which was a blessing to all on the fire lines. Hot,mild, or cold, FSJ's are at home everywhere. ************************************************************************* Kim Smith 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Landon Tesar" To: Sent: 31 August, 2000 09:45 Subject: fsj: re: TX Humor > was 104 yesterday. The wag has good ventilation, though(fsj content). > Didn't really bother me that much. Can you get numb from heat ? > If you've never seen it, pick up a copy of the movie 'True Stories' It > captures North TX pretty well, though it's 14 yrs old. > > - Landon > > 'Twas summer now and Satan lay > By a prickly pear to rest. > The sweat rolled off his swarthy brow > So he took off his coat and vest. > > "By Golly," he finally panted, > "I did my job too well, > I'm going back to where I came from, > Texas is hotter than Hell! > =================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:01:33 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: re: TX Humor Almost forgot, a little Aggy humor. Q: Do you know what happened when the Aggy saw his 50 cent piece? A: He sold his FSJ to afford her. ************************************************************************* Kim Smith 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Smith" To: "Landon Tesar" ; Sent: 31 August, 2000 09:57 Subject: fsj: Re: re: TX Humor > I haven't lived in Texas [Well, if you count in utero, I have. Thank God the USAF > transferred Dad back to Great Falls BEFORE I was born, or (shudder) I'd be a Texan!] > but I did live in Carlsbad, NM and spent time in Guadeloupe NP, so I can Know what > you mean. Loved those 120deg days where you had to where welders gauntlets to open > the car door, reach in, start it and run the A/C for 20 minutes before you could get > in without 3rd. degree burns. Lived in Rapid City, SD, same deal. Here it didn't > even get into the 70's yesterday, and we actually had some rain, without wind or > lightning, which was a blessing to all on the fire lines. > Hot,mild, or cold, FSJ's are at home everywhere. > > ************************************************************************* > Kim Smith > 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Landon Tesar" > To: > Sent: 31 August, 2000 09:45 > Subject: fsj: re: TX Humor > > > > was 104 yesterday. The wag has good ventilation, though(fsj content). > > Didn't really bother me that much. Can you get numb from heat ? > > If you've never seen it, pick up a copy of the movie 'True Stories' It > > captures North TX pretty well, though it's 14 yrs old. > > > > - Landon > > > > 'Twas summer now and Satan lay > > By a prickly pear to rest. > > The sweat rolled off his swarthy brow > > So he took off his coat and vest. > > > > "By Golly," he finally panted, > > "I did my job too well, > > I'm going back to where I came from, > > Texas is hotter than Hell! > > =================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:02:44 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: Re: re: TX Humor Almost forgot, a little Aggy humor. Q: Do you know what happened when the Aggy saw his 50 cent piece? A: He sold his FSJ to afford her. ************************************************************************* Kim Smith 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219 ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kim Smith" > To: "Landon Tesar" ; > Sent: 31 August, 2000 09:57 > Subject: fsj: Re: re: TX Humor > > > > I haven't lived in Texas [Well, if you count in utero, I have. Thank God the USAF > > transferred Dad back to Great Falls BEFORE I was born, or (shudder) I'd be a > Texan!] > > but I did live in Carlsbad, NM and spent time in Guadeloupe NP, so I can Know what > > you mean. Loved those 120deg days where you had to where welders gauntlets to open > > the car door, reach in, start it and run the A/C for 20 minutes before you could > get > > in without 3rd. degree burns. Lived in Rapid City, SD, same deal. Here it didn't > > even get into the 70's yesterday, and we actually had some rain, without wind or > > lightning, which was a blessing to all on the fire lines. > > Hot,mild, or cold, FSJ's are at home everywhere. > > > > ************************************************************************* > > Kim Smith > > 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219 > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Landon Tesar" > > To: > > Sent: 31 August, 2000 09:45 > > Subject: fsj: re: TX Humor > > > > > > > was 104 yesterday. The wag has good ventilation, though(fsj content). > > > Didn't really bother me that much. Can you get numb from heat ? > > > If you've never seen it, pick up a copy of the movie 'True Stories' It > > > captures North TX pretty well, though it's 14 yrs old. > > > > > > - Landon > > > > > > 'Twas summer now and Satan lay > > > By a prickly pear to rest. > > > The sweat rolled off his swarthy brow > > > So he took off his coat and vest. > > > > > > "By Golly," he finally panted, > > > "I did my job too well, > > > I'm going back to where I came from, > > > Texas is hotter than Hell! > > > =================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:08:16 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: re: TX Humor No, I don't have a nervous Send finger. The darn ISP told me the first one didn't send, so I re-sent, and the second one bounced also, so I sent the third one. kim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:55:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: AllExperts Question about PCVs A: I was asked: I have an '87 Grand Wagoneer I am re-doing. I have replaced the original motor with a mid-seventy's AMC 360 with an edlebrock intake and a holley carb. All the emission control has been removed from this vehicle. The pcv is mounted at the rear of the intake. A line from the pcv valve is routed into a secondary on the holley carb. Another line runs from the air breather to the cap on my oil filler tube. What I don't understand is the thinking behind this set up. Please explain if you can the purpose of running a vacume line from the pcv to a vacume secondary on the carb. Given my present set up, what would be the best way to install my pcv? Thanks. A: The PCV needs to be hooked to direct manifold vacuum. It sucks out the moisture, vapours and hydrocarbon byproducts (from combustion slipping past the rings) from your crankcase that would otherwise settle in there, and turn to HCL acid and other metal damaging compounds. The other hose going to the filter is too allow fresh air in, AND to allow excess pressure out. If you seal the motor off, enough compression slips past the rings and builds up to blow the oil pan gasket, rear seal, valve cover gasket or intake seals out. Pretty expensive repairs, just to have no ugly hose on your motor! ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: 31 Aug 00 11:45:05 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Power valve vs. accel. pump] FYI- The accelerator pump squirts fuel thru a couple of tubes one per barrel into the intake. It's like a squirt gun. If it goes bad, it doesn't squirt anymore. The power valve (economy valve) is a device that allows add'l fuel into the main fuel path and to the venturis bypassing the main jets. It is actuated by a lack of vacuum. Apply vacuum, it is closed. Remove vacuum, it opens allowing a richer mixture. It must be hooked to manifold vacuum which is high at cruise/idle (pwr valve off, lean mixture) and goes zero at acceleration (pwr valve on, richer mixture). If you have a vacuum leak to the pwr valve, you get rich mix all the time. I found this out failing emissions the second time trying to 'cheat'. :( I defer to the experts on your specific symptoms... I do think that a bad pwr valve would reduce mileage and make for lots of black smoke. But brown smoke? Hm. *shrug* Michael "Landon Tesar" wrote: > '89 GW, mostly stock. Symptoms: bad gas mileage, brown smoke when I > push on the accelerator more than a little. > > In the Motorcraft 2150 carb, if you go to NAPA and ask for a Power > valve, they will give you what the Haynes manual calls an 'Economizer > Valve', even if what you thought you wanted in the first place was an > accelerator pump. > Confused ? Me, too. I'm just gonna have to get the factory shop > manual. > What's the part that is likely to go bad and dump fuel into the engine? > Is it the 'economizer valve', or the accelerator pump ? Both ? > There is a vacuum line below the accelerator pump that looks like it > should lead to the evap canister. There is a hole, just to the lower > left of the accelerator pump on the front of the carb, that looks like > it should have a vacuum fitting, possibly for the distributor ? > Distributor vacuum is currently fed from the front passenger side of the > carb. > Last question: The spring inside the accelerator pump - for my > outside-in configuration of lever, housing, diaphragm assy, spring, > little orange diaphragm, the Haynes manual shows the spring tapered with > small end toward the inside, so that it acts directly on the little > orange diaphragm. For the other accelerator pump configurations, it > shows the spring tapered with small end to the outside. Is this a > misprint ? > Thanks for any help/intelligence besides go get Holley ProJection. > > - Landon - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:40:55 -0500 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: Re: [fsj: Power valve vs. accel. pump] Michael, I think you've got it. I'll apply vacuum to the fitting below and in front of the carb, which is currently capped off. I believe it needs to go to the evap cannister. This could be it! Thanks. I'm psyched. - - Landon Michael Shimniok wrote: > FYI- > > The accelerator pump squirts fuel thru a couple of tubes one > per barrel into the intake. It's like a squirt gun. If it > goes bad, it doesn't squirt anymore. > > The power valve (economy valve) is a device that allows add'l > fuel into the main fuel path and to the venturis bypassing the > main jets. It is actuated by a lack of vacuum. Apply vacuum, > it is closed. Remove vacuum, it opens allowing a richer > mixture. It must be hooked to manifold vacuum which is high > at cruise/idle (pwr valve off, lean mixture) and goes zero at > acceleration (pwr valve on, richer mixture). > > If you have a vacuum leak to the pwr valve, you get rich mix > all the time. I found this out failing emissions the second > time trying to 'cheat'. :( > > I defer to the experts on your specific symptoms... I do think > that a bad pwr valve would reduce mileage and make for lots of > black smoke. But brown smoke? Hm. *shrug* > > Michael > > "Landon Tesar" wrote: > > '89 GW, mostly stock. Symptoms: bad gas mileage, brown smoke when I > > push on the accelerator more than a little. > > > > In the Motorcraft 2150 carb, if you go to NAPA and ask for a Power > > valve, they will give you what the Haynes manual calls an 'Economizer > > Valve', even if what you thought you wanted in the first place was an > > accelerator pump. > > Confused ? Me, too. I'm just gonna have to get the factory shop > > manual. > > What's the part that is likely to go bad and dump fuel into the engine? > > Is it the 'economizer valve', or the accelerator pump ? Both ? > > There is a vacuum line below the accelerator pump that looks like it > > should lead to the evap canister. There is a hole, just to the lower > > left of the accelerator pump on the front of the carb, that looks like > > it should have a vacuum fitting, possibly for the distributor ? > > Distributor vacuum is currently fed from the front passenger side of the > > carb. > > Last question: The spring inside the accelerator pump - for my > > outside-in configuration of lever, housing, diaphragm assy, spring, > > little orange diaphragm, the Haynes manual shows the spring tapered with > > small end toward the inside, so that it acts directly on the little > > orange diaphragm. For the other accelerator pump configurations, it > > shows the spring tapered with small end to the outside. Is this a > > misprint ? > > Thanks for any help/intelligence besides go get Holley ProJection. > > > > - Landon > > --- > Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net > "For every complex problem, there is a solution that > is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 13:12:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: fsj: Anyone have Tom Beddy's (sp??) email addr??? I need to contact him about the 304 he sold Whit, but don't have any record of his email addr. He is supposed to be on this list. Greg Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 16:35:02 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: Re: [fsj: Power valve vs. accel. pump] Landon, the thing is, that the vacuum to the power valve is INTERNAL, not external. While incorrect vacuum hose routing or a vacuum leak will degrade performance, by reducing the available vacuum, usually if it is a power valve problem, it is caused by a) a bad power valve [often caused by a backfire through the carb in Holley and Holley designed carbs], or b) there is crud obstructing an internal passage in the carb body, or c) there is a vacuum leak in the carb itself, causing the valve to open too soon. Is the fitting you refer to on the carb or is it a vacuum switch on the manifold? Regardless, you don't apply manifold vac TO the carb, as the manifold is sucking THROUGH the carb. The taps on the carb merely are places to obtain vacuum FROM the carb, for things like the PCV,EGR, distributor, etc... They are either non-ported, i.e., they provide full vacuum all the time, or they are ported, i.e., they provide vacuum from somewhere in the carb that varies depending on things like throttle position. As the Pres said to Monica "Blow is just a figure of speech." LOL ************************************************************************* Kim Smith 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Landon Tesar" To: "Michael Shimniok" Cc: Sent: 31 August, 2000 13:40 Subject: Re: [fsj: Power valve vs. accel. pump] > Michael, I think you've got it. I'll apply vacuum to the fitting below and in > front of the carb, which is currently capped off. I believe it needs to go to > the evap cannister. This could be it! Thanks. I'm psyched. > > - Landon > > Michael Shimniok wrote: > > > FYI- > > > > The accelerator pump squirts fuel thru a couple of tubes one > > per barrel into the intake. It's like a squirt gun. If it > > goes bad, it doesn't squirt anymore. > > > > The power valve (economy valve) is a device that allows add'l > > fuel into the main fuel path and to the venturis bypassing the > > main jets. It is actuated by a lack of vacuum. Apply vacuum, > > it is closed. Remove vacuum, it opens allowing a richer > > mixture. It must be hooked to manifold vacuum which is high > > at cruise/idle (pwr valve off, lean mixture) and goes zero at > > acceleration (pwr valve on, richer mixture). > > > > If you have a vacuum leak to the pwr valve, you get rich mix > > all the time. I found this out failing emissions the second > > time trying to 'cheat'. :( > > > > I defer to the experts on your specific symptoms... I do think > > that a bad pwr valve would reduce mileage and make for lots of > > black smoke. But brown smoke? Hm. *shrug* > > > > Michael > > > > "Landon Tesar" wrote: > > > '89 GW, mostly stock. Symptoms: bad gas mileage, brown smoke when I > > > push on the accelerator more than a little. > > > > > > In the Motorcraft 2150 carb, if you go to NAPA and ask for a Power > > > valve, they will give you what the Haynes manual calls an 'Economizer > > > Valve', even if what you thought you wanted in the first place was an > > > accelerator pump. > > > Confused ? Me, too. I'm just gonna have to get the factory shop > > > manual. > > > What's the part that is likely to go bad and dump fuel into the engine? > > > Is it the 'economizer valve', or the accelerator pump ? Both ? > > > There is a vacuum line below the accelerator pump that looks like it > > > should lead to the evap canister. There is a hole, just to the lower > > > left of the accelerator pump on the front of the carb, that looks like > > > it should have a vacuum fitting, possibly for the distributor ? > > > Distributor vacuum is currently fed from the front passenger side of the > > > carb. > > > Last question: The spring inside the accelerator pump - for my > > > outside-in configuration of lever, housing, diaphragm assy, spring, > > > little orange diaphragm, the Haynes manual shows the spring tapered with > > > small end toward the inside, so that it acts directly on the little > > > orange diaphragm. For the other accelerator pump configurations, it > > > shows the spring tapered with small end to the outside. Is this a > > > misprint ? > > > Thanks for any help/intelligence besides go get Holley ProJection. > > > > > > - Landon > > > > --- > > Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net > > "For every complex problem, there is a solution that > > is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1010 **************************