From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Sep 3 19:25:00 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, September 3 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1013 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: OUCH! fsj: RE: carb disgust fsj: tilt wheel hades... fsj: 77 Wag update fsj: Engine locking starter? Re: fsj: Engine locking starter? Re: fsj: Engine locking starter? Re: fsj: OUCH! Re: fsj: Engine locking starter? fsj: Re: Engine locking starter? Re: fsj: expensive lesson fsj: 77 Wagoneer fsj: I KNOW YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO KILL ME Re: fsj: I KNOW YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO KILL ME FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 22:04:07 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: OUCH! Well, some DSP side swiped old J0E this afternoon while he was parked in front of the house. Took out a wheelcover, the left front fender and tore the bumper off from the bend to the bracket. The person didn't even come up to the house, but at least they left name and number, so I have SOMETHING to go on. :-( The police are following up, but so far, haven't tracked them down, so they probably have no insurance and left bogus information. ************************************************************************* Kim Smith 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219,torn off front bumper,dented fender ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 23:24:29 -0700 From: "john" Subject: fsj: RE: carb disgust the 4350 I have on the 77 Wagoneer came from Schucks. If you go that way let me know and you can buy it through my business... my discount saved me about 70 or 80 bucks... it's doing fine. This 360 is running real smooth... I'm almost done with what might very well be the worst repair task on any FSJ... the flippin' tilt wheel repair... what a miserable task.. not sure if fixing the rear window is worse or not... it's a toss up... heading back out with tilt disgust... let me know on the carb, I'll talk to the schucks in clearview about you buying one through them and picking it up near you... the way schucks does the commercial discount is kind of screwy, it's maintained by each store... the problem is I'm all over the place working on rigs... sometimes I'll buy here, other times there... I wish they'd centralize their computer system so I get my discount whereever I am... It's almost cheaper for me to go to the dealer for parts... it is for my Mercedes parts... most of the time the Jeep parts too... Well, back outside... the dash is in, tilt 80% done, got the hitch installed and all that's left is putting on the front driveshaft and checking out the kickdown and brakes... who knows what other evil lurks beyond these problems... this thing might very well be called the nightmare of Blanchard... (the easement it current sits on... ;) I'm tired... john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- - -----Original Message----- From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com [mailto:Brazzadog-at-aol.com] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 8:53 PM To: john-at-virtual-cafe.com; Carnuck-at-webtv.net Subject: carb disgust I'm back from my self imposed exile. School has started; Kim is finished with her business trips for awhile; the summer's traveling in over, and I'm almost back to normal. Some might argue that will never happen. Anyway, I'm back to thinking about wrenching in between working on getting the house painted. I've finally re-sub'd to all my mailing lists. The tailpipe on the Wag is still black. Repeated attempts to adjust the mixture result in the same setting and aren't making a difference. Also, I think the brake booster is not leaking fluid to the intake manifold like I thought. I think it's the top gasket (among others) on the 4350 that's leaking fuel and leaching black crap all over the manifold, but that doesn't explain the over-rich condition implied by the tailpipe. I think I'll try Mr. Baxter's cover-plate flattening procedure and see what happens. Bottom line - I'm sick of dealing with flaky carbs and don't really want to swap in an Edelbrock manifold (too much work) and don't like the design compromises of the Edelbrock carb. I just know that small primaries and large secondaries has to make more sense. I also don't want another "remanufactured by Holley" 4350. I'm thinking about sending it off to The Carb Shop but have had trouble getting e-mail to them. One of the problems with that is that I don't have another carb that will fit easily for temporary use. John - what was the source of that 4350 you put on the '77 Wag? How is it holding up? You wanted to sell that carb once. Do you still? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 23:36:24 -0700 From: "john" Subject: fsj: tilt wheel hades... I'm glad I took pictures of that column while taking it apart... had to come in to look... Murphy is alive and well and visiting in Snohomish... when you see him again he'll probably have a few of the ball bearings that came out of my steering column... either that or he hid them in the grass... ;) well, back out side... john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 01:00:37 -0700 From: "john" Subject: fsj: 77 Wag update - - dash in, but dash lights didn't work... - - steering wheel in - - new battery cable clamp - - goes forward, but not backward... need to hook up front driveshaft. later, joh - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 07:10:02 -0400 From: "rrackley" Subject: fsj: Engine locking starter? Hey guy's, I'm not much on engine knowledge, so what's happening to an 85 Grand wagoneer when you drive it 15 miles, shut it off, hop back in 10 minutes later and the selenoid just clicks & rat-ta-tat-tats, with a new battery. I know an old, or possibly new, battery can short out to do that, or recharging could not be occurring, but those weren't the case. After jumping to another vehicle to get on to my mom's 70th birthday, returning late and hooking recharger for over-night just in case, next day cleaning battery & selenoid terminals, and tapping on selenoid and starter, still nothing, then I suspected the engine was in some way locking the starter, so I climbed into the engine compartment and pulled on the pwr steering pump belt enough to turn the engine a half-a crank, which wasn't easy, and too impatient to find a big socket to turn the crank pully from underneath, anyway it fired right up, time after time. It seems like this has happened to me once before many years ago in the far distant past, before emails or even home computers, with a former 83GW. So, is the engine some way locking the starter ? Does this ever happen in the north/northwest or just Ga and south/southeast where it's hotter? Could engine be stopping with pistons at just the right combination of compression strokes to allow a hot engine to expand trapped gases past the point that a battery could turn it? If so, could I have turned it ? Or is that possible, impossible, or rediculous? It wasn't even a hot day, just low 90's with 100% humidity, we had a cold front move in and sit on us a couple of days with overcast and much rain, what a relief. I've seen some emailers from Al & Fla and other southeast'ers, has this ever happened to any of you'all? Hot & stumped in Ga, Rack (ley) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:38:03 EDT From: BLW1540-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: Engine locking starter? In a message dated 09/03/00 06:15:24 Central Daylight Time, rrackley-at-cyberhighway.net writes: > I'm not much on engine knowledge, so what's happening to an 85 Grand > wagoneer when you drive it 15 miles, shut it off, hop back in 10 minutes > later and the selenoid just clicks & rat-ta-tat-tats, with a new battery. IMHO, any solenoid chatter suggests strongly there's not enough power getting to the solenoid to hold it closed or that the solenoid itself has a problem, that it would otherwise be held closed even if the engine had seized. Speculatively, if you know the battery's good by checking the charge in the cells with a hydrometer and the battery as a whole with a voltmeter, or, better still, having the battery load tested, and the cables and cable connections are all good, I'd consider replacing the starter motor and the solenoid on the wheel well. Bruce Wilson 84 GW Des Moines, IA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:56:29 EDT From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: Engine locking starter? << Hey guy's, I'm not much on engine knowledge, so what's happening to an 85 Grand wagoneer when you drive it 15 miles, shut it off, hop back in 10 minutes later and the selenoid just clicks & rat-ta-tat-tats, with a new battery. I So, is the engine some way locking the starter ? Hot & stumped in Ga, Rack (ley) >> My 85 Still does this. I have replaced the battery, the starter, all the cables and the relay switch (Which BTW was arcing REALLY bad). It doesn't happen all the time but when it does it sounds like the starters gonna get ripped off it's mounts OR you hear a wha-wa wha-wa. If it starts to happen, I turn off all components and floor the go pedal and she starts right up. One thing I have noticed is that when this occurs, my "voltometere" (?) on my instrument panel pins or surges to the right so I';m starting to suspect my alternator. Let me know what you find out but I saw the best improvement in this ailment from replacing the starter "relay" and by thouroughly cleaning the terminals of the battery. Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:03:16 EDT From: RKH911-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: OUCH! << Well, some DSP side swiped old J0E this afternoon while he was parked in front of the house. :-( The police are following up, but so far, haven't tracked them down, so they probably have no insurance and left bogus information. ************************************************************************* Kim Smith >> Kim, Ouch is right. I'm sorry to hear about the accident. Yell if you need parts - - I'm always in the yards around here. Rob Harrison 85 Grand Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:23:38 EDT From: BLW1540-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: Engine locking starter? In a message dated 09/03/00 09:58:06 Central Daylight Time, RKH911-at-aol.com writes: > My 85 Still does this. I have replaced the battery, the starter, all the > cables and the relay switch (Which BTW was arcing REALLY bad). It doesn't > happen all the time but when it does it sounds like the starters gonna get > ripped off it's mounts OR you hear a wha-wa wha-wa. If it starts to happen, > I turn off all components and floor the go pedal and she starts right up. > One thing I have noticed is that when this occurs, my "voltometere" (?) on > my instrument panel pins or surges to the right so I';m starting to suspect my > alternator. I'd suspect something else, maybe the starter or something more serious. When you say "it sounds like the starter's going to be ripped off its mounts", I'm presuming the starter's spinning without engaging the flywheel. When you say it pegs the meter, that suggests it's engaging but is being prevented from turning. I know you said you replaced the starter, but I'd consider replacing it again as the least cost possibility. Bruce Wilson 84 GW Des Moines, IA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 15:43:24 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: Re: Engine locking starter? Sounds like mine when a rebuilt starter started eating the teeth off the flexplate ring gear. When you rotate the engine, you are moving it past the munched onto fresh teeth. The fix is to pull either the engine or the transmission, and replace the flexplate (if it's an automatic) or the flywheel (if it's a manual). At the same time, either replace the starter OR the starter drive if the starter load tests OK (your parts store can test it for you). There are rebuilders who use a starter drive gear that fits the starter, but the teeth on the pinion are not beveled, and even when the starter is aligned perfectly, it eats the ring gear teeth. Last tip: I learned this from an old mechanic, and you'll never find it in any manual. Coat the teeth of the pinion with good hi-pressure grease (I use hi-temp wheelbearing grease). It will prolong the life of your ring gear and pinion gear indefinitely. Stop and think about it: this is a high shock load gear engagement, and the only one on the car without lube!? [BTW, due to the balances and friction involved, most engines usually stops within the same 60-90deg segment of the flywheel every time. AMC V8's particularly so, I haven't ever seen a used flex plate or flywheel from an AMC that didn't exhibit this phenomenon.] ************************************************************************* Kim Smith 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "rrackley" To: Sent: 03 September, 2000 05:10 Subject: fsj: Engine locking starter? > Hey guy's, > I'm not much on engine knowledge, so what's happening to an 85 Grand > wagoneer when you drive it 15 miles, shut it off, hop back in 10 minutes > later and the selenoid just clicks & rat-ta-tat-tats, with a new battery. I > know an old, or possibly new, battery can short out to do that, or > recharging could not be occurring, but those weren't the case. After > jumping to another vehicle to get on to my mom's 70th birthday, returning > late and hooking recharger for over-night just in case, next day cleaning > battery & selenoid terminals, and tapping on selenoid and starter, still > nothing, then I suspected the engine was in some way locking the starter, so > I climbed into the engine compartment and pulled on the pwr steering pump > belt enough to turn the engine a half-a crank, which wasn't easy, and too > impatient to find a big socket to turn the crank pully from underneath, > anyway it fired right up, time after time. It seems like this has happened > to me once before many years ago in the far distant past, before emails or > even home computers, with a former 83GW. So, is the engine some way locking > the starter ? Does this ever happen in the north/northwest or just Ga and > south/southeast where it's hotter? Could engine be stopping with pistons at > just the right combination of compression strokes to allow a hot engine to > expand trapped gases past the point that a battery could turn it? If so, > could I have turned it ? Or is that possible, impossible, or rediculous? > It wasn't even a hot day, just low 90's with 100% humidity, we had a cold > front move in and sit on us a couple of days with overcast and much rain, > what a relief. I've seen some emailers from Al & Fla and other > southeast'ers, has this ever happened to any of you'all? > > Hot & stumped in Ga, > Rack (ley) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:15:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: Re: fsj: expensive lesson So, my neighbor was thinking about swapping his bad 360 in his '81 wag (TF727) for a 304 that was previously installed in a '78 Wag (TH400). Would this be a problem for him? I don't know what the engine was originally installed in...probably a Javelin or something like that. Greg '79Wag - --- James Blair wrote: > When you have your motor rebuilt, make sure the > crank that goes in > either has the centering sleeve (TH400) or has none > (TF727/999) or you > will lose your trans in no time! Someone just found > that out the hard > way, several trans later. Learn from the mistakes! > > ************************************* > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 > http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html > ************************************** Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 17:54:00 -0700 From: "john" Subject: fsj: 77 Wagoneer The 77 Wagoneer has a "new" gauge cluster, from an '84, "new" carpeting and headliner, a NEW 4v carb, fresh tune, a nice tight tilt wheel and actually motivated under it's own power... I found out why the driveshaft wasn't installed... the center piece of the double cardan joint is broke... Also, it doesn't like to go into reverse... sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't... I wonder if this TH400 isn't fixing to lose the front pump... I don't know if I want to know... I want this thing to go away. :) I've got too many projects. The Benz is going too... I need the money for my shop. That's priority number one. Make me an offer on the 77 Wagoneer... it has dual tanks, rear tire carrier and comes with the 84 GW door panels and leather seats (minus the bases). Tires are marginal... brakes, uncertain... :) also has a new windshield... the rear window is untested, unknown... I vaguely remember actually having it work... but just plan on it being broken and we'll stay friends. :) I also installed a factory hitch, the flat bar type... I think you might be able to drive it home, if it stays in emergency gear long enough or you replace the front driveshaft. Any reasonable offer considered, seriously... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... Jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 20:56:47 EDT From: RMSquaredJeeps-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: I KNOW YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO KILL ME It's really terrible when you have too much time on your hands and you start to fool around, like I did this afternoon. Most of you know me as the Super Wagoneer guy and yesterday I met with a guy here in SoCal who recently bought a 44,000 original mile 1966 Super Wagoneer and is it beautiful! I have uploaded two photos at: http://jeepwriter.homepage.com/1967SW.html He's missing one of the hood ornament standups, a 2-inch or so diameter chrome ring with a Kaiser-era Jeep logo so if anyone knows where one is available, let me know so I can pass on the info to the owner. I'm going to encourage the new owner to Join all the FSJ-related mailing lists. Now on to why you guys are going to be so upset with me. Some of you know that I am an audio enthusiast of the first order and I've struggled with how to best equip my Super Wagoneer with a kick-ass audio system without structurally modifying the truck. Today I think I came up with the ultimate solution. I have a Bose Companion 5-channel home audio system. It was designed to work in tandem with DSS and Dish network systems but it discontinued after it flopped in the marketplace. Think of it as a 5-channel Acoustimas system with 5 small jewel-cube speakers and an Acoustimas powered bass module. I've been using this system as my PC audio system but realized that the audio system in the GMC Denali uses an Acoustimas module buried in the center console, I thought, why not in the Super Wagoneer, after all every luxury SUV should have a premium audio system, even those built before most of us were old enough to drive, right? One of the great things about having a big old wagon is that you have lots of room to play around. I brought the system out to the truck, hooked everything up placing the three front speakers on top of the dash and the two rear surround speakers on the top of the rear wheel wells, hooked everything up, ran a set of RCA cables from my Blaupunkt TravelPilot AM/FM/CD mounted under my dash to the bass module, ran an extension cord to the truck and fired it up. In a word, awesome! This was only to see if it sounded good (and it sounded better than the 3-channel Directed Audio amplifier, Directed Audio 2-way door speakers and Kicker 10-inch subwoofer already installed) and was temporary. My ultimate solution is this. I'm going to have fabricated an aluminum panel that will run along the underside of the instrument panel. In it I will cut out holes for the left speaker, the tailgate switch, the Grand Wagoneer power window switch, the Blaupunkt AM/FM/CD/GPS in-dash unit, the center channel speaker, the matching 5-disc in-dash Blaupunkt CD-changer, an additional power port, a 110-volt plug and finally at the extreme right end, the right speaker. With this panel, which will tilt up slightly upwards, I'll be able to mount all my additional gear without making any modifications to the vehicle. In fact, if I do this right, the whole package will be modular and could be removed in less than 15 minutes if I wanted to return the vehicle to stock condition (what, a Jeep in stock condition?) if I was to display it if such was important. Painting the panel black will give it that "if it was available in 1969" look yet give me all the features that I want. The bass module will be secured to the rear cargo area and the biggest 12-volt inverter I can find will be mounted under the passenger seat. In addition to this no-cut audio upgrade, I'll have a powerport and docking station up front and in the rear for my new DVD laptop so that I'll be able to interface the audio from my laptop if I have passengers who want to watch a movie on a long trip. The switching box (mounted up front, behind the speaker grille on the passenger side) for the Companion has a number of audio and video inputs and is switched via remote control. I'm sure that most of you will think I'm crazy but realize that I'm making no visible modifications to the truck - in fact I'll be able to remove the current speakers from both the doors and the rear side panels. Even though they are installed in the same location as on a late-model Grand Wagoneer, I'd prefer to either get the panels repaired or replaced and back to original condition. In the meantime I have a set of AMC map pockets that I'm going to cover the holes in the doors after I remove the current speakers. I'm curious as to what you guys think of this idea. Comments good and bad, will be appreciated. If you'd like me to post photos of the installation and the gear installed, let me know. Have a great weekend, Richard Truesdell 1969 Jeep Super Wagoneer equipped with a Bose audio system. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 18:24:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: I KNOW YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO KILL ME A: Sounds along the line of what I'm doing with Blackie, but I'm making things "Look" stock that aren't. I found a hideaway face CD stereo that looks like an AM radio when shut off (by Pioneer) but has a stack of 5 CDs inside and an amp that goes behind the dash on the RH side. Speakers are harder to hide in a pickup, but I'm confident I can do it! Richard wrote: It's really terrible when you have too much time on your hands and you start to fool around, like I did this afternoon. Most of you know me as the Super Wagoneer guy and yesterday I met with a guy here in SoCal who recently bought a 44,000 original mile 1966 Super Wagoneer and is it beautiful! I have uploaded two photos at: http://jeepwriter.homepage.com/1967SW.html He's missing one of the hood ornament standups, a 2-inch or so diameter chrome ring with a Kaiser-era Jeep logo so if anyone knows where one is available, let me know so I can pass on the info to the owner. I'm going to encourage the new owner to Join all the FSJ-related mailing lists. Now on to why you guys are going to be so upset with me. Some of you know that I am an audio enthusiast of the first order and I've struggled with how to best equip my Super Wagoneer with a kick-ass audio system without structurally modifying the truck. Today I think I came up with the ultimate solution. I have a Bose Companion 5-channel home audio system. It was designed to work in tandem with DSS and Dish network systems but it discontinued after it flopped in the marketplace. Think of it as a 5-channel Acoustimas system with 5 small jewel-cube speakers and an Acoustimas powered bass module. I've been using this system as my PC audio system but realized that the audio system in the GMC Denali uses an Acoustimas module buried in the center console, I thought, why not in the Super Wagoneer, after all every luxury SUV should have a premium audio system, even those built before most of us were old enough to drive, right? One of the great things about having a big old wagon is that you have lots of room to play around. I brought the system out to the truck, hooked everything up placing the three front speakers on top of the dash and the two rear surround speakers on the top of the rear wheel wells, hooked everything up, ran a set of RCA cables from my Blaupunkt TravelPilot AM/FM/CD mounted under my dash to the bass module, ran an extension cord to the truck and fired it up. In a word, awesome! This was only to see if it sounded good (and it sounded better than the 3-channel Directed Audio amplifier, Directed Audio 2-way door speakers and Kicker 10-inch subwoofer already installed) and was temporary. My ultimate solution is this. I'm going to have fabricated an aluminum panel that will run along the underside of the instrument panel. In it I will cut out holes for the left speaker, the tailgate switch, the Grand Wagoneer power window switch, the Blaupunkt AM/FM/CD/GPS in-dash unit, the center channel speaker, the matching 5-disc in-dash Blaupunkt CD-changer, an additional power port, a 110-volt plug and finally at the extreme right end, the right speaker. With this panel, which will tilt up slightly upwards, I'll be able to mount all my additional gear without making any modifications to the vehicle. In fact, if I do this right, the whole package will be modular and could be removed in less than 15 minutes if I wanted to return the vehicle to stock condition (what, a Jeep in stock condition?) if I was to display it if such was important. Painting the panel black will give it that "if it was available in 1969" look yet give me all the features that I want. The bass module will be secured to the rear cargo area and the biggest 12-volt inverter I can find will be mounted under the passenger seat. In addition to this no-cut audio upgrade, I'll have a powerport and docking station up front and in the rear for my new DVD laptop so that I'll be able to interface the audio from my laptop if I have passengers who want to watch a movie on a long trip. The switching box (mounted up front, behind the speaker grille on the passenger side) for the Companion has a number of audio and video inputs and is switched via remote control. I'm sure that most of you will think I'm crazy but realize that I'm making no visible modifications to the truck - in fact I'll be able to remove the current speakers from both the doors and the rear side panels. Even though they are installed in the same location as on a late-model Grand Wagoneer, I'd prefer to either get the panels repaired or replaced and back to original condition. In the meantime I have a set of AMC map pockets that I'm going to cover the holes in the doors after I remove the current speakers. I'm curious as to what you guys think of this idea. Comments good and bad, will be appreciated. If you'd like me to post photos of the installation and the gear installed, let me know. Have a great weekend, Richard Truesdell 1969 Jeep Super Wagoneer equipped with a Bose audio system. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1013 **************************