From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Sep 21 22:29:15 2000
From: fsj-digest <owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net>
fsj-digest Thursday, September 21 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1035
Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps
Brian Colucci <ABCvoice-at-worldnet.att.net>
Digest Coordinator
Contents:
fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Update to my updates (Ramblings of a GW owner)
fsj: Fwd: BACKROAD DRIVERS NORTHWEST Stories from the Washington Road
fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Digest Number 479
fsj: Re: tailgate latch
fsj: The long & short of it
fsj: Re: Aw-4 Auto question (auto O/D for FSJs)
fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Update on the warm start prob.
Re: fsj: tailgate latch
FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/
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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair)
Subject: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Update to my updates (Ramblings of a GW owner)
A: Just the end of the cable by the battery is smoking? That would be a
bad connection. Corrosion between the positive post and cable end is the
cause of most "dead" batteries. I have 7 batteries in my driveway now my
buddy picked up and we tested as good. (out of 20 that were "dead")
I have to cut the end off my Dodge van's + cable today and put an end
on it because it does the same thing.
If the whole cable jumps or smokes when you go to start, then it is a
POS starter!
Rob wrote:
Ok, I was convinced that it was the alternator and was calling around
for a replacement. I didn't know which one I had specifically so I went
out and upon further investigation, 1 of the connectors was no longer
connected - Problem solved, right?!?
Nope. I tried to jump it and got some clicking from the starter,
absolutely no power inside (figure the batt is still dead) and then i
look at the cables and they are smokin' - Jeez will this ever end. Now,
I'm guessing it's been the POS starter I bought a while back - have
since bought a new one and will let you all know the situ whern I'm
done.
Rob Harrison
85 Grand Wagoneer
*************************************
JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688
http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html
**************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:36:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair)
Subject: fsj: Fwd: BACKROAD DRIVERS NORTHWEST Stories from the Washington Road
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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:22:05 -0700
Subject: BACKROAD DRIVERS NORTHWEST Stories from the Washington Road
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Dear Fellow Backroad Drivers,
Jerry's call for stories prompted me to repost the link to my work in
progress --
EXPLORING WASHINGTON'S BACKROADS -- NORTHWEST ROADTRIP
I invite you to visit the site and hopefully find enjoyment in a collection
of essays I've written over the years and the scenic photos from around the
state.
This site is soon to be redesigned and updated. Not only are their more
stories and pictures ready to add, but I would like to integrate more
features for people like us, both from here and traveling through, to make
the site more interactive. A close link to BRNW is in the plan, and any
ideas other ideas about how this book on line might be informative and
attractive are welcomed. I also invite you to pass on this message to
others who may be interested.
You will find Exploring Washington's Backroads at
www.nwroadtrip.com
Thanks and Happy Travels,
Ray Jon Wilder
(aka John Deviny)
Olympia, Washington
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:31:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair)
Subject: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Digest Number 479
A: I guess you'll just have to fly me out there then! (J/K, but my new
nick could be Junkyard Jim, the flying wrench!) I won't be available to
go anywhere till I sell this house. First, have the bores mic'ed to see
if it was bored or not. (don't forget to have the block hot tanked and
flushed to remove any grit from the old pistons and boring).
Did you find a receipt for pistons? Are they Badger? If so, you may
be able to get them replaced under warranty due to flaws that Badger had
for awhile. (John thought they came from Jegs or Summit)
Get hyperteutic pistons (and have the bore matched to them), as they
seem to be best at present. Was there any cylinder wall scoring? Did you
do a compression test before disassembly? (that would tell you the
condition of the other cylinders)
Go with the cam you have now unless there is severe scoring or it's
lost lift (check the bottoms of the lifters for wear. they came with a
tiny outward bulge that is hard to see, but if they are flat or inwars,
replace them) in which case, grab the Edelbrock package (unless
emissions are an issue in AL). Have the cam bearings replaced.
Bore 0.030 if it hasn't been already, and have the pistons, rods,
crank, flexplate and harmonic all balance matched if you can.
Assembly of the motor isn't difficult with the manual to guide you,
and between us here, we can come up with enough tips on how to do it.
Maybe I need to set up engine rebuild 101. I used to teach night
school mechanics for women and men (ever wondered why I can usually
relate mechanical stuff to non-mechanical people? <G>)
RJ wrote:
Okay.. I just checked some prices, the long block at some places,
cost nearly the same as a short block.. 1,100 to 1,300. to a long block
that was 1,600! some places build off of your block and rebuild it for
you, ( that was for a thousand..) Is that a better way to go .. or get
it already done with warranty? oh and of course a warranty is a must!
I do not know how to rebuild a engine! Where in the hell do I start? I
don't know what cam to get, or how high the lifters should be.. or do I
want to bore 30 over? how much would it cost extra to build a higher
performance engine? I have no clue!!
Please help!
I am very frustrated!
R.J.
*************************************
JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688
http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html
**************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:42:43 EDT
From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com
Subject: fsj: Re: tailgate latch
I have no advice, but if you figure it out let us know 'cause mine is doing
it too.
Ben Williams
'71 Wagoneer
> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:30:28 GMT
> From: "michel balea" <mbalea-at-hotmail.com>
>
> on the 74, the right side do no unlatch, the mechanism works, when viewed
> from the inpection plate, it is the part in the door jam that does not
> rotate! any ideas -i have been spraying the area with lubricants for
> weeks.... cannot even force a screwdriver!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:53:47 -0500
From: "Landon Tesar" <r16884-at-email.sps.mot.com>
Subject: fsj: The long & short of it
R.J.
Don't get frustrated! You have just entered a fun and exciting world of
engine configuration. Endless opportunities for good discussion over a
beer or two at any engine shop. Once you've limited yourself based on
what vehicle the engine is going in, you can start worrying about what
speed you want to drive at, what gear ratio to have means what RPM, and
what weight you're going to pull around, what transmission you will run,
then how much money you want to spend, then what heads do/can you want,
then what valve size and intake chamber size, then what flow to expect,
at what lift, what gas do you want to afford, with what compression
ratio, that should drive your cam decision. Now if you're limited by
exhaust, then that just drives back through all your previous decisions
- - literally.
1st question - what makes you think you need an engine rebuild ? I
forget your last post about it.
2nd question - how long do you want to keep this thing ? A well rebuilt
engine with quality components that is cared for, is just about
guaranteed for life - yours.
Others I'm sure know more based on experience, but the nice thing about
the pickup is that it's lighter than the wagoneers, so you can be a
little more aggressive.
A few things I think you want:
Deck milled parallel to crank bore. This is overlooked but can be worth
a few HP, and will make sure the pistons are pushing around the
crankshaft, rather than along it.
Someone who understands piston spacing in AMC V8s. I remember from an
old Crane Cams engine book, that piston bore centers varied in the
production blocks, and this was stamped somewhere on the block, or part
of the block number. this was a '73 book, but it's worth some concern.
Thrust bearing clearance removed. The crankshaft should not be allowed
to slide back and forth.
Flat top pistons, and decks that are milled so that TDC is at the deck.
Balanced assemblies of piston/rod/pin(if the 360 is internally balanced,
I think it is)
Bore the engine only as much as necessary.
Replace rod bolts for sure, main and head bolts if you can afford it.
Be careful to match compression ratio to cam duration/lift - I built a
383 cid C$$#-at- with 10.25:1 compression but only a 266/.440 lift cam. It
ran good, but easily had another 30-40 hp available just with more cam.
If you have a manual transmission, stay away from grey iron or cast
steel cranks. You need ductile iron or forged steel.
If you can find a roller hydraulic camshaft and lifter combo, I'd
suggest that one.
Get a roller timing chain - most decent brands.
Get a high volume oil pump.
Be leery of buying a 'total package' unless you know the components, and
what's new, what's rebuilt, and what's replaced, and what's kept.
If it were my truck ? assume 3:31 - 3:73 gears.
360 V-8. 4bbl Edelbrock carb, manifold, cam. ~9.25:1 Comp ratio,.
268-270 intake valve duration, stock heads w/ 3 angle valve job, new
valves depending on condition, new springs etc, new rockers, pushrods,
flat top cast TRW? Silv-o-Lite? pistons, stock exhaust manifolds, but
put on dual exhaust, rebuilt rods, new piston pins. This is not a
complete list, but narrows down the configuration. Deck, bore, polish
the crank, hone, etc. There's a good builder here if you want me to get
a quote. Expect $1900 or so to get it out of the shop +
manifold/carb/exhaust.
- - Landon
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:53:52 -0500
From: "R.J. Baynum" <poolcues-at-bellsouth.net>
Subject: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Digest Number 479
Okay.. I just checked some prices, the long block at some places, cost
nearly the same as a short block.. 1,100 to
1,300. to a long block that was 1,600! some places build off of your
block and rebuild it for you, ( that was for a
thousand..) Is that a better way to go .. or get it already done with
warranty? oh and of course a warranty is a must!
I do not know how to rebuild a engine! Where in the hell do I start? I
don't know what cam to get, or how high the
lifters should be.. or do I want to bore 30 over? how much would it
cost extra to build a higher performance engine?
I have no clue!!
Please help!
I am very frustrated!
R.J.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:53:51 -0500
From: Mike Dillon <mdill-at-lsil.com>
Subject: fsj: Re: Aw-4 Auto question (auto O/D for FSJs)
Hi Jim,
I am just trying to figure out the options for an overdrive auto, for the
360 V8
in either of the rigs (Not sure which one is going to be the ginny pig yet)
I was thinking of the Dodge 518 (or E whatever they call it now), problems
with this one I see are it is 7" (I think thats right) longer and I need
buy/make
a trans-engine adapter, the up sides are the trans lines, kick down linkages
and
I think a stock AMC/Jeep 360 lockup converter would drop right on to the
front of it. Unknowns are: mounting point maybe just puting the crossmember
in the
rear holes (gets me 5" I beleive) and a simple plate to make up the rest.
>From my
rough measurements it puts the transfer case on or darn close to the fuel
tank coffin.
On the engine adapter: I hope but haven't confirmed that the bellhousing on
the 518 is
shorter than the AMC 727 , I hope can just make a plate of the right
thickness to
bolt between them.
Your AW setup sounded interesting in that it would have the correct
bolt pattern
to start with, could bolt up a 229 or 208, (The Grand with the 208 is the ex
Foresty
stripper stock 360-727-208 rig) I like the only 2" difference in lenght, TPS
and VSS
don't bother me as the rig would get a GM / homebrew TBI setup at the same
time
so those sensors will be avalible. Strength is an issue, but I am pretty
tame as far
as romping on things. But is sounds like I would need to spend $ on some hop
up
parts from TCI for it. I am sticking with the 360, I would guess the the V8
flexplate
could be redrilled. New kick down setup , cooler lines would have to be
made.
Either way there are some problems but it seems like either could be
made to work.
Mike D.
James Blair wrote:
> Mike Dillon wrote:
> Hi Jim,
> What is the low down on the AW-4 auto, would it
> hold up behind a mild 360,
> and I seem to remember you going though some hoops to get one with the
> correct
> spline count for a 229 transfer case ?
>
> A: A stock one wouldn't last too long unless you didn't romp on it at
> all, but TCI (IIRC) builds them super duty for about $1000 plus core.
> '91 and newer AW4 for 23 spline count outputshaft. I bought a '90 AW4
> with NP242 that was from an 07/90 built Cherokee, and it was 21 spline
> (still have the trans for sale too! Only 85K miles on it and $150 w/o
> the shift computer) and my replacement is from a '95. I looked at a
> 08/90, and it was 23 spline. My guess is the cut is when they went to
> high output 4.0L for '91. I think it was 50 HP more due to cam and head
> reconfig. It puts -at-75 more HP in a 4.2L if you do the head/cam EFI swap.
> Go all the way and use a 4.0L block and pistons with 4.2L crank and rods
> and EFI and you will run a little under 300 HP with the right cam, but
> octane becomes an issue (not for me since I will be running LPG -at- 105
> octane! <G>)
>
> >I guess I am looking to pick your brain on putting a overdrive trans in
> either my 83 cherokee or my 88 grand. One has a 208
> and the other has a 229 (If you guess which has which you would be
> wrong) and both have a 727 trans now.
> What years did Jeep offer a overdrive auto with a AMC bell housing
> pattern ?
>
> A: I take it you put a 208 in the '88? Or is it one of the last std
> trannies? The 4.0L Cherokee trans is AW4 with the same pattern as 360.
> '91 and newer for 23 spline, you also need the shift computer and have
> to do some wiring and linkage mods. Trans is 2.5" longer than a 727 and
> a tranny mount will have to be manufactured for it. I am going to use
> the Neoprene Chev trans mount for mine.
> I would suggest using a wiring harness and computer from a pre '95
> due to other issues. You need to rig up a throttle postion sensor (I
> wonder if the Holley Pro-Jection already has one?), a cable to the
> throttle linkage to control line pressure in the trans (like a passing
> gear), speedo hookup is going to be interesting (not sure about the vss
> speed sensor and hooking in a speedo cable), shifter linkage (I'll find
> out about that soon enough!)
>
> >Are certain years or models that have the correct spline count and ??
> to
> be able to bolt up either a 208 or 229 transfer ? or are better in some
> way than other years or models ?
> Do you see any issues with bolting one of these trans to the 727 flex
> plate ?
>
> A: Holes need redrilling in the flexplate to match. Not a big issue
> -at-$50, but if you are rebuilding an engine anyway, use a 4.0L flexplate
> and have the crank rods and harmonic balancer matched. It's a couple
> hundred well spent bucks for longevity! (then you can run the redux
> drive AW4 starter. The Ford style starter may be a bellhousing fit
> issue, but the flywheels have the same # of teeth)
> A new or rebuilt harmonic balancer is available for this set up too.
> (If you go for the Multiport Fuel Injection conversion {MPFI} you can
> have the pickup for the balancer mounted at the same time.) Not sure
> what the Holley Pro-Jection needs to work.
>
> >What is the relative length of the overdrive options vs. the 727 ?
>
> A: The AW4 is the best option I've seen so far for '80 and newer and
> it's 2.5" longer than a 727. If you lift the rear, driveshaft length may
> not be an issue, but the front is going to be too short.
> I plan to use a Shortbox J10 V8 NP229 rear shaft if I don't lift,
> because it is 2" shorter than a 6 cyl NP208 shaft (I learned this when I
> swapped the '84 GW shaft I had into Elmo. It worked perfectly with the
> sag and already had new Ujoints). The V8 trans mount is moved 5" forward
> of the 6 cyl one, and since the driveshaft is 2" shorter, I guess that
> the 208 is 3"-4" shorter than a NP229 (or is that 7"? My math is
> confused today.)
> Running a Chev 4L60 (not "e") O/D with AMC bellhousing adapter is
> best for '79 and older with TH400s for strength. (they were used behind
> some Chev diesels) Not sure on length for them.
> I don't know if the newer Jeeps run a 727 O/D (32Le or 32Re IIRC)
> with a 4.0L bolt pattern, but they are so weak that tranny shops are
> very busy replacing them anyway. The AW4s I have looked at mostly have
> 200,000+ miles of service life.
>
> >I know you have spent a lot of time working out the overdrive issue and
> you have posted lots of bits and pieces that have got me thinking , but
> it is real hard to find all the stuff you have put on the list in one
> spot to be able see if it is practical for my situation.
> Thanks Mike D.
>
> A: I hope I shed a little light. If you have any other thoughts, let me
> know. Most of this is still in flux till I do the actual swap, but it's
> based on many past swaps I've done (I used to bolt C#-at-v V8s in Datsun
> pickups w/o much effort, as well as 318s into D50s with auto trans, and
> Hyundai RWD motors into D-50s with std trans. Most fun I had was
> swapping Fiat X/19 motors and trans for Honda Accord motors with auto
> trans. I had 50 of them I was converting before A) the economy in Canada
> went in the dumper, and B) the car fell on my head. I work much slower
> now, and with the occaisional mistakes I try to avoid by looking at a
> plan 6 times before implementing.
>
> *************************************
> JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688
> http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html
> **************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:10:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair)
Subject: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Update on the warm start prob.
A: I already answered your other post on this, but it's time for another
PSA (Please Save AllJeeps or public service announcement, take your
pick) The alternator on '78 to pre Chryco FSJs ('87 I think) use a mid
'70's Chev altenator known as a 10si or Delco-tron. That's what you grab
one for when you go to upgrade, and tell them what amperage you want (I
have a brand new CHROME 200 amp Delcotron I was going to use, but won't
since I'm going with the stroker and Renix setup. It doesn't fit the
4.0L alt brackets, but it's the same case as Elmo had. I got it
wholesale for $125 and it's for those boombox cars, but I figured, with
an electric winch, I would need one too!)
The ammeter burn out syndrome will do this too. That is why I say
bypass that ugly MF by going straight to the battery + with an extra
wire. The ground feeds back through the battery ground cable, but ALL
the power goes through the tiny factory wire from the alt +.
You can argue which way the electrons flow (it's still under debate)
but basically the battery is a box full of electrons, and the power
comes out of the + to the starter, ignition, ect, till the alternator
turns fast enough to reverse the flow and fill the box back up. If there
is too much resistance to flow at some point (ie: the Ammeter is
corroded) then if you equate the electrons flowing like water, and the
ammeter becomes a dam. It backs up behind it, but instead of jumping the
banks like a river does, heat is built up till there is either a fire,
or the wire to the ammeter's solder breaks off, and the wire drops. Your
headlights will flicker wildly, radio noise goes crazy, and if you turn
it off, all goes dead (till you put a jump wire from the alt + to the
battery +)
If you manage to run til your battery is too low and go to crank your
motor, the power flows too slow to start, but the wires heat up because
there is increased amperage going through.
Have I totally confused everyone now? I have to go ship some stuff
now and get more keyboard batteries.
Rob wrote:
I had a tow truck look at the Gw and the 2 day old Optima 1250 was dead
- - can you say bad alternator. It's abvout the only thing i haven't
replaced on the GW.
I'm gonna be looking through the site for an upgrade if available,
otherwise I'll go with the stock size. lemme know quick if you have any
advice or opinions on this.
Rob Harrison
85 Grand Wagoneer
*************************************
JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688
http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html
**************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:16:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair)
Subject: Re: fsj: tailgate latch
maybe the hinge bushing has seized or broken. I had to lift the gate on
some autowrecker rigs with a screwdriver to get them to open
*************************************
JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688
http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html
**************************************
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From: "michel balea" <mbalea-at-hotmail.com>
To: Carnuck-at-webtv.net
Subject: Re: fsj: tailgate latch
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:48:21 GMT
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FILETIME=[C09DFD00:01C023EB]
I have slapped it so much i have blisters....
i can see the release spring and the cogs moving thru the service panel, May
be some heat! Unless the catch is loose and binding.
Thank you Jim
>>>Jim says: Have you slapped the gate while holding up on the handle? Elmo
>>>did that once in awhile. It was a broken release spring, but slapping the
>>>gate on that side made it bounce just enough to open.
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