From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Sep 21 22:29:43 2000
From: fsj-digest <owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net>
fsj-digest Thursday, September 21 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1036
Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps
Brian Colucci <ABCvoice-at-worldnet.att.net>
Digest Coordinator
Contents:
fsj: Fwd: [FWDLK] Resto Parts From MoPar?
Re: fsj: noisy Valve train
Re: fsj: Re: Aw-4 Auto question (auto O/D for FSJs)
Re: fsj: The long & short of it
Re: fsj: Fwd: [FWDLK] Resto Parts From MoPar?
fsj: Re: Aw-4 Auto question (auto O/D for FSJs)
Re: [fsj: The long & short of it]
fsj: Re: working out the bugs in my jeep
fsj: Re: Your J-10 for sale.
Re: fsj: Re: Aw-4 Auto question (auto O/D for FSJs)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:40:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mike Sealey <wagoneer401-at-yahoo.com>
Subject: fsj: Fwd: [FWDLK] Resto Parts From MoPar?
One of my other rides is a '57 Plymouth, and I also
belong to a Forward Look MoPar ('55-'61) mailing list.
(Don't gimme any cr-at-p about the capital "P", that's
the way the factory did it until the mid-'60s.)
Anyway, if this source is correct, the time might well
be right to start asking MP about bringing back
replacement 401s...
> From: "Rimington, Ken" <Ken_Rimington-at-ATK.COM>
> Reply-To: "Rimington, Ken" <Ken_Rimington-at-ATK.COM>
> To: L-FORWARDLOOK-at-LISTS.PSU.EDU
> Subject: [FWDLK] Mopar parts
> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:08:35 -0500
>
> It appears Daimler-Chrysler is planning on a limited
> supply of restoration parts for selected forwardlook
> cars.
>
> Check out this site.
>
> http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/buzz/b092000.htm
>
> Ken Rimington
> 1956 Dodge Custom Royal
=====
Mike Sealey, San Francisco CA
"The Ultimate Rambler -
This Ain't No Yuppie Jeep"
'77 Wagoneer 401
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:47:56 GMT
From: "michel balea" <mbalea-at-hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: fsj: noisy Valve train
>>>Jim says : I think you have a worn lifter or 2,
Somewhere it is worn! but i cannot locate a specific sound with the
screwdriver to my ear. Also it tend to be louder as the engine is warming
up.
>>>Jim says :but it may be the rocker or cam lobe. Burnt exhaust valves is
>>>another possibilty, but if the EGR dumps to that side, the intake valves
>>>may look like dowels.
On the V8 the EGR is kind of dumping in the middle of the rear end. What is
a burnt valve... damaged edge or missing a chunk
>>>Jim says : Oh, yeah! It would be a bent intake pushrod, because an
>>>exhaust one will cause backfire out the carb and HIGHER compression than
>>>the others.
so that clears the exhaust valve , no backire. And the a bent intake
pushrod is better, the vaccum reads good 20 with a rythmic 1 inch drop, and
the lower compression... and the power is no as good as the 74 which has
100,000 more miles
Cool, Jim. Time to pull the valve cover
Thank you
Michel
74 wag (daily runner)
84 Gwag ( timesink)
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:00:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair)
Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Aw-4 Auto question (auto O/D for FSJs)
A: The 518 is the one (32LE) that Dodge is having problems with keeping
together over 200 hp. They are basically a 727 case which was machined
to attach an O/D planetary set to, which weakened the case. The newer
ones have been beefed up considerably, but still only last about 50,000
miles. Advanced adapters already has the kit for attaching your motor to
a Chev trans (4L60 can be attached to a NP series Chev case. I forgot
this the first time) and may have one for the Dodge case, but I believe
the 4L60 is the better of the 2.
TCI sells BUILT AW4 trannies that can take up to 500 HP for around
$1000.
Building your own homebrew tran adapter has to take into account that
A) Dodge bellhousing is nearly the same depth as the AMC one (someone
on the AMC-list came up with the idea of a bellhousing adapter that
attaches to the trans front pump, and you just cut the bellhousing off
the dodge tranny to attach it.)
B) You will need a spacer between the ring gear and torque converter
the same thickness as your engine/trans plate. (I built an adapter for a
Alison A540 auto trans to bolt up to a 383 hemi truck motor when my
buddy lost a leg and couldn't drive his 5 ton '61 Fargo equipment truck
with a std trans anymore)
There are already holes 5" back in the frame from V8 to I-6 cyl trans
crossbar mount. That would enable you to use 6 cyl NP229 driveshafts
front and rear for length. (motor may need to go 2" forward)
There is another option. A Klune V OD/UD unit. You can get it for
over or under drive (I thought about building a Brownie for this purpose
with BOTH so you can run nice in between ratio for town, OD for the
highway, and UD for mega wheeling. Oh YEAH BABY!), and it goes between
the trans and transfercase. Another crossbar for strength is needed too.
Mike wrote:
Hi Jim,
I am just trying to figure out the options for an overdrive auto, for
the 360 V8
in either of the rigs (Not sure which one is going to be the ginny pig
yet) I was thinking of the Dodge 518 (or E whatever they call it now),
problems with this one I see are it is 7" (I think thats right) longer
and I need buy/make a trans-engine adapter, the up sides are the trans
lines, kick down linkages and
I think a stock AMC/Jeep 360 lockup converter would drop right on to the
front of it. Unknowns are: mounting point maybe just puting the
crossmember in the
rear holes (gets me 5" I beleive) and a simple plate to make up the
rest. From my
rough measurements it puts the transfer case on or darn close to the
fuel tank coffin.
On the engine adapter: I hope but haven't confirmed that the bellhousing
on the 518 is
shorter than the AMC 727 , I hope can just make a plate of the right
thickness to
bolt between them.
Your AW setup sounded interesting in that it
would have the correct bolt pattern
to start with, could bolt up a 229 or 208, (The Grand with the 208 is
the ex Foresty
stripper stock 360-727-208 rig) I like the only 2" difference in lenght,
TPS and VSS
don't bother me as the rig would get a GM / homebrew TBI setup at the
same time
so those sensors will be avalible. Strength is an issue, but I am pretty
tame as far
as romping on things. But is sounds like I would need to spend $ on some
hop up
parts from TCI for it. I am sticking with the 360, I would guess the the
V8 flexplate
could be redrilled. New kick down setup , cooler lines would have to be
made.
Either way there are some problems but it seems
like either could be made to work.
Mike D.
*************************************
JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688
http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html
**************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:09:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair)
Subject: Re: fsj: The long & short of it
A: One other possibility is to swap in a C#-at-v with EFI and
trans/transfercase from a wreck and be done with it, plus get some gas
mileage. Just a thought, but as much as I like AMCs, the Chev setup is
cheaper to maintain or replace. (much as I loathe the idea) I sent your
email to the AMC-list last night, and you should be getting a fair bit
of input from there.
Landon wrote:
R.J.
Don't get frustrated! You have just entered a fun and exciting world of
engine configuration. Endless opportunities for good discussion over a
beer or two at any engine shop. Once you've limited yourself based on
what vehicle the engine is going in, you can start worrying about what
speed you want to drive at, what gear ratio to have means what RPM, and
what weight you're going to pull around, what transmission you will run,
then how much money you want to spend, then what heads do/can you want,
then what valve size and intake chamber size, then what flow to expect,
at what lift, what gas do you want to afford, with what compression
ratio, that should drive your cam decision. Now if you're limited by
exhaust, then that just drives back through all your previous decisions
- - literally.
1st question - what makes you think you need an engine rebuild ? I
forget your last post about it.
2nd question - how long do you want to keep this thing ? A well rebuilt
engine with quality components that is cared for, is just about
guaranteed for life - yours.
Others I'm sure know more based on experience, but the nice thing about
the pickup is that it's lighter than the wagoneers, so you can be a
little more aggressive.
A few things I think you want:
Deck milled parallel to crank bore. This is overlooked but can be worth
a few HP, and will make sure the pistons are pushing around the
crankshaft, rather than along it.
Someone who understands piston spacing in AMC V8s. I remember from an
old Crane Cams engine book, that piston bore centers varied in the
production blocks, and this was stamped somewhere on the block, or part
of the block number. this was a '73 book, but it's worth some concern.
Thrust bearing clearance removed. The crankshaft should not be allowed
to slide back and forth.
Flat top pistons, and decks that are milled so that TDC is at the deck.
Balanced assemblies of piston/rod/pin(if the 360 is internally balanced,
I think it is)
Bore the engine only as much as necessary. Replace rod bolts for sure,
main and head bolts if you can afford it. Be careful to match
compression ratio to cam duration/lift - I built a 383 cid C$$#-at- with
10.25:1 compression but only a 266/.440 lift cam. It ran good, but
easily had another 30-40 hp available just with more cam. If you have a
manual transmission, stay away from grey iron or cast steel cranks. You
need ductile iron or forged steel. If you can find a roller hydraulic
camshaft and lifter combo, I'd suggest that one.
Get a roller timing chain - most decent brands. Get a high volume oil
pump.
Be leery of buying a 'total package' unless you know the components, and
what's new, what's rebuilt, and what's replaced, and what's kept.
If it were my truck ? assume 3:31 - 3:73 gears.
360 V-8. 4bbl Edelbrock carb, manifold, cam. ~9.25:1 Comp ratio,.
268-270 intake valve duration, stock heads w/ 3 angle valve job, new
valves depending on condition, new springs etc, new rockers, pushrods,
flat top cast TRW? Silv-o-Lite? pistons, stock exhaust manifolds, but
put on dual exhaust, rebuilt rods, new piston pins. This is not a
complete list, but narrows down the configuration. Deck, bore, polish
the crank, hone, etc. There's a good builder here if you want me to get
a quote. Expect $1900 or so to get it out of the shop +
manifold/carb/exhaust.
- - Landon
*************************************
JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688
http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html
**************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:20:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair)
Subject: Re: fsj: Fwd: [FWDLK] Resto Parts From MoPar?
A: Now THERE'S a motor for RJ! Too bad it would tear up the other stuff
in the truck!
Mike Sealey wrote:
One of my other rides is a '57 Plymouth, and I also belong to a Forward
Look MoPar ('55-'61) mailing list. (Don't gimme any cr-at-p about the
capital "P", that's the way the factory did it until the mid-'60s.)
Anyway, if this source is correct, the time might well be right to start
asking MP about bringing back replacement 401s...
From: "Rimington, Ken" <Ken_Rimington-at-ATK.COM>
Reply-To: "Rimington, Ken" <Ken_Rimington-at-ATK.COM>
To: L-FORWARDLOOK-at-LISTS.PSU.EDU
Subject: [FWDLK] Mopar parts
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:08:35 -0500
It appears Daimler-Chrysler is planning on a limited supply of
restoration parts for selected forwardlook cars.
Check out this site.
http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/buzz/b092000.htm
Ken Rimington
1956 Dodge Custom Royal
=====
Mike Sealey, San Francisco CA
"The Ultimate Rambler -
This Ain't No Yuppie Jeep"
'77 Wagoneer 401
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
*************************************
JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688
http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html
**************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:04:14 -0700
From: john <john-at-virtual-cafe.com>
Subject: fsj: Re: Aw-4 Auto question (auto O/D for FSJs)
I can't see why an Aisin-Warner would not hold up... Every one
I know that has one has never had troubles... they tow large objects,
beat 'em up on the trail... beef up the motor, etc. stroker motors,
and so on...
If you look at the horsepower/torque of a stock 360 vs. a 4.0L there
isn't a wide gap.
My AW4 has over 204,000 miles on it and I've made some performance improvements
to my 4.0L. They also use the AW4 behind the toyota/lexus V8's.
So, my feeling is it would do FINE.
john
At 12:29 PM 9/21/00 -0700, James Blair wrote:
>Mike Dillon wrote:
>Hi Jim,
> What is the low down on the AW-4 auto, would it
>hold up behind a mild 360,
>and I seem to remember you going though some hoops to get one with the
>correct
>spline count for a 229 transfer case ?
>
>-----------------------------------------------------
- -----------------------------------------------------
john-at-virtual-cafe.com http://www.wagoneers.com
67 J3000 (SJ) - 88 wagoneer (xj) - 83 J10 Stepside (SJ)
jesus, don't leave life without him, please!
Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold...
- -----------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 21 Sep 00 17:28:57 MDT
From: Michael Shimniok <michael.shimniok-at-usa.net>
Subject: Re: [fsj: The long & short of it]
Good advice. The 360 is externally balanced tho I wonder if it
wouldn't be worth having it internally balanced? Would the savings
in things rattling around even at low rpms (< 5000) offset any
potential weakening due to removing much material to balance it?
My design goal: about 20-25% more hp & torque than stock, extremely
high reliability and long life. Rpm redline up to 5500 if possible
so I can take advantage of lower gearing to improve performance w/o
highway penalty.
I want to focus my $ on fixing the big 'problems' I seem to see
on AMC motors. First the oiling system fix. Then valvetrain with
hi quality valve guides as I think most 360's have shot guides,
and also stainless valves if possible to resist burnt valves and
provide long life. I will probably also go with hi quality cam
and bottom end bearings. I understand there are certain kinds of
rings that will last a long time, so I'd be into that, too. A
double-roller timing chain is a must as the stock chains get full
of slack too quickly. I would want the best lifters, rods, rockers,
springs possible, with improved retainers as I guess that is also
a problem(?). Need to look into that more. I will avoid the
rollers cuz I can't justify the cost for the rpm range and cam
I'm running even if it improves valvetrain life. New timing
cover and rebuilt oil pump or new if possible. Hi flow water
pump as cooling is usually a problem on bored out bigger AMCs.
I'd run EFI which should take care of many carb related problems
and improve power greatly and prevent raw gas washing down the
cylinder which some of you folks said is a problem (and I believe
it). A modern ignition system (MSD cap. discharge + the ford
tfi conversion). If I can run 4500rpm without sweat for hours
at a time, I can go with 33" tires and 4.10s and have ample
performance and highway top speed. I figure when done I'll be
spending a small fortune, but if I have the motor for 200k miles
(my goal) with minimal troubles and significantly improved power,
especially up the long grades in thin air, I'll be a real happy
camper and I can consider my truck nearly 'done' ... as it's been
a process of improving what's worn or improving overall design
to achieve reliability, comfort, drivability, safety, and
substantial off-road performance. Kind of the best of all
worlds. :) We'll see if I can pull it off. :)
Michael
"Landon Tesar" <r16884-at-email.sps.mot.com> wrote:
> 360 V-8. 4bbl Edelbrock carb, manifold, cam. ~9.25:1 Comp ratio,.
> 268-270 intake valve duration, stock heads w/ 3 angle valve job, new
> valves depending on condition, new springs etc, new rockers, pushrods,
> flat top cast TRW? Silv-o-Lite? pistons, stock exhaust manifolds, but
> put on dual exhaust, rebuilt rods, new piston pins. This is not a
> complete list, but narrows down the configuration. Deck, bore, polish
> the crank, hone, etc. There's a good builder here if you want me to get
> a quote. Expect $1900 or so to get it out of the shop +
> manifold/carb/exhaust.
>
> - Landon
>
>
> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:53:52 -0500
> From: "R.J. Baynum" <poolcues-at-bellsouth.net>
> Subject: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Digest Number 479
>
> Okay.. I just checked some prices, the long block at some places, cost
> nearly the same as a short block.. 1,100 to
> 1,300. to a long block that was 1,600! some places build off of your
> block and rebuild it for you, ( that was for a
> thousand..) Is that a better way to go .. or get it already done with
> warranty? oh and of course a warranty is a must!
>
> I do not know how to rebuild a engine! Where in the hell do I start? I
> don't know what cam to get, or how high the
> lifters should be.. or do I want to bore 30 over? how much would it
> cost extra to build a higher performance engine?
> I have no clue!!
> Please help!
> I am very frustrated!
> R.J.
- ---
Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that
is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:16:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair)
Subject: fsj: Re: working out the bugs in my jeep
A: You can put in a used valve body from a trans that was already
working.
I'm passing this on to a group of guys who know the ins and outs of std
trans swaps on FSJs better than me:
Remember to cc:c_knight_-at-hotmail.com (Corry knight)
Corry wrote:
So you mean a used valve body? Or do I need to by a new one? I might try
this to see if it'll help my problems.
**on the subject of putting a manual tranny in** I found a rebuilt T18A
from a lot up in fontana. The guy said he'd sell it to me for $1200. But
then I still have to buy the bell housing adaptor and adaptor for the
tcase. I also have to buy the fly wheel. he has one for $150. He doesn't
have the pedals and linkage but can find them. I didn't know what to
expect as far as prices go and the info the guys in the yards are
telling me is that this isn't going to be as simple as going and getting
a tranny and flywheel...etc. from another fsj and putting it in. I have
to track down all these adaptors and bell housings and I get confused. I
was expecting to call the yards looking for a manual tranny out of a 80
or newer fsj. but it ain't that simple. nobody sales the whole thing and
I haven't found everything in one spot or even everything for that
matter.
What I'm lacking is knowledge of fsj's and what trannnies, tcase, and
engine combo's came in which years and what is interchageable and what
peices make up the drive train in the manuals etc.
Where can I find resource material on-line to help me learn more about
the fsj's?
*************************************
JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688
http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html
**************************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:57:38 -0500
From: "R.J. Baynum" <poolcues-at-bellsouth.net>
Subject: fsj: Re: Your J-10 for sale.
Yeah.. that would be great!
post a pic there . Find out what the engine is... a inline 6 would be a 258.. or the
v8 360.. that was the only ones offered then.
I am looking for a short block myself to re build my 80 J-10..
can't do that much right now.. although I am really tempted, even its for parts and
body. I know if you post to all the FSJ lists.. I am sure someone will e mail you for
the right price. 2500 is more like what it is worth. The body seems good .. but if
it's not a new engine.. don't ask for 3200!
off-road.com has a FSJ list as well try there as well
I will cc this to my list too.. but please do a ad for it on egroups
Also they can help with wagoneers as well...
Well worth it in the long run compared to the new Truck prices of today. For 3,500 -
10,000 you could you buy a really nice wag! there is even a place in Texas that sells
really clean like new Wags..
So.. anyway.. please join the list, and ask some questions!
Also look at http://www.wagoneers.com!
Regards..
R.J.
Michael Baker wrote:
> RJ,
> My last message was a little short but I'm back in town and wanted to
> clarify a few things. As I mentioned earlier, I'm a CJ guy since my teens
> and I "inherited" the J10 when my father bought a new truck. My wife and I
> are expecting a baby in December and I would like to sell the truck and get
> either another CJ or maybe a Wagoneer, something that all my family could
> fit in.
>
> It is clean and does drive well. I'm not really sure about the motor as far
> as it being a 360. I pretty sure it is the straight 6. It has the 3 speed
> transmission. The original manual is still in the glove compartment.
>
> My dad was building a couple of houses and used it to haul stuff. He had an
> old Jaguar a bodyshop owner wanted and part of the sale was to paint the
> truck a few years ago.
>
> I drove it down from their place in Tennesse back in April and used it over
> the summer. My wife and I help with a youth camp in Guntersville and we
> haul some stuff with it. I had planned on keeping it and selling the Honda
> I have but when we found out we were expecting (we already have a 5-year old
> girl), I decided to sell it and my Honda and get something a little bigger
> and something with a backseat.
>
> Like I said, I don't know much about J10s but I've had 2 CJs and 2
> Wranglers. Do you think $3200 is too high? I would sell it for $2500 but
> thought I might get a little more for it here than where my folks live.
>
> Thanks, for the e-group, I browsed it last night when I got in. If you get
> a chance, can I just post it there for sale or how is that done? I have a
> pretty good digital image of it.
>
> Thanks again,
> Mike
>
> >From: "R.J. Baynum" <poolcues-at-bellsouth.net>
> >To: mcbaker83-at-hotmail.com
> >Subject: Your J-10 for sale.
> >Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:07:56 -0500
> >
> >I saw your very nice 79 White J-10 FSJ on the little park and sell auto
> >plaza along
> >memorial parkway.
> >You said it worked and drove great. It looked very cleaned. A bit nicer
> >then my 80
> >J-10 Honcho. Is that a 360?
> >You wanted $3,200. for it?
> >
> >I also belong to several Jeep lists that you are more then welcomed to
> >post your Jeep
> >up for sale at.
> >one is : "1FSJ" -at- egroups.com ( http://www.egroups.com) and FSJ-Digest at
> >http://www.wagoneers.com
> >I will CC the list as well to help you sell it. Why are you selling it?
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >R.J. Baynum
> >Huntsville Al
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 18:51:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair)
Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Aw-4 Auto question (auto O/D for FSJs)
A: It's fine for a 23 spline AW4 with a stock 360, but a cranked up 360
that is being romped on in a vehicle that is 2000 lbs heavier? I think
not stock! (probably why Dodge/Jeep didn't use them with the 318 and 360
in the Grand Cherokees)
John wrote:
I can't see why an Aisin-Warner would not hold up... Every one I know
that has one has never had troubles... they tow large objects, beat 'em
up on the trail... beef up the motor, etc. stroker motors, and so on...
If you look at the horsepower/torque of a stock 360 vs. a 4.0L there
isn't a wide gap.
My AW4 has over 204,000 miles on it and I've made some performance
improvements to my 4.0L. They also use the AW4 behind the toyota/lexus
V8's.
So, my feeling is it would do FINE.
john
At 12:29 PM 9/21/00 -0700, James Blair wrote:
Mike Dillon wrote:
Hi Jim,
What is the low
down on the AW-4 auto, would it hold up behind a mild 360,
and I seem to remember you going though some hoops to get one with the
correct
spline count for a 229 transfer case ?
*************************************
JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688
http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html
**************************************
------------------------------
End of fsj-digest V1 #1036
**************************