From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Oct 20 21:17:43 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, October 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1076 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: RE: SFBay Mechanic? fsj: RE: stalling FSJ (long) Re: [fsj: Gas leak???] Re: fsj: RE: stalling FSJ (long) fsj: '60s Tonka Wagoneer fsj: Fwd: GW site Re: [fsj: Do I have a Timing problem?] Re: [fsj: Do I have a Timing problem?] Re: fsj: Plugged fuel line? fsj: Re: Do I have a Timing problem? fsj: Some AMC/ Ralph Nader info FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:06:12 -0700 From: Jim Pearson Subject: fsj: RE: SFBay Mechanic? Mike - > Welcome to the list. - --> Thanks! So far, I quite like it. What a great (and low "noise") group! > Mechanics are harder to find than dates.... This is what I am afraid of. And when ya' find one, it's like a good commute short-cut: You don't want to tell anyone, or else they'll get to busy. > i am in san bruno... but i don't know anyone good.... > You'll have to get > dirty, as i did. - --> Not afraid of this - too much. I'd rather not do a BIG job (like replacing the heads) but a little thing is now big deal. > I can recommend some specialty stores... Any good head/engine machine shops, should I actually pull the heads and/or valve train? (If that's what it ultimately needs.) Thanks! Jim 1982 Cherokee Laredo "Canyonero" ...and other toys... This email and any attached files are confidential and solely for the use of the original intended recipient. This communication represents the originator's personal views, which do not necessarily reflect those of Lightwave Microsystems. If you are not the original recipient or person responsible for delivering email to the intended recipient, this email has been received in error. Any unauthorized use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please notify postmaster-at-lightwavemicro.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:15:54 -0700 From: Jim Pearson Subject: fsj: RE: stalling FSJ (long) Heya, JeepNut - [With apologies to the list if this is unusually long for this group. Let me know...] > Hi Mr. Pierson, Crap! I didn't notice my Dad joining the list... gotta go say "hi." : ) > summer messing with a truck that would intermittently die > for varying > lengths of time and more than one thing was causing it... ... I _hate_ that.... find out 4 different things are causing the problem... ugh. > Now I thought it was black smoke, fuel; blue smoke, > oil; white smoke, coolant.... And you're right. I'll have to be more observant when I start 'er tomorrow - - see if it's blue or white. But, if it were white, I'd see water in the oil, or somesuch, yes? > Of course the compression check will be interesting > perhaps. And I have done one recently so maybe it will be > useful to compare numbers... Cool! I _hope_ it's useful. The only way it wouldn't be is if I get a bunch of "0"'s... and I don't want that! > As to the stalling... is it a stumble-dead? or a > drop-dead no cough, no sputter? ... most like "die silently enough that I don't realize it's dead." Then, on re-start it's a *tough* grind at first (like "bzzzzzzz" without turning over) for just a short bit, then *blam* fires right up like a champ (as it has done every morning). But I think that's more an electrical problem I have to sort out (does the same thing if the radio's on.) > If you play with the pedal when this is happening do > you get a backfire or cough? Haven't tried. Doesn't do it *quite* consistently enough. My guess from the feel / gut instinct would be cough-resume-normal. > If you have your right foot on the throttle lightly as > you pull up to the stop, use your left to brake so you can feel > the pedal with your right foot... Interesting. Hadn't thought of that. Will have to see if I can get it to do it. > Keep us posted.... > JeepNut Y'all may regret that invitation. : ) Plan for tomorrow is a compression check and timing check. As for the leak-down -- Yes, I want that done, if I can find a good mechanic. I am going to do the compression check myself, but don't have the tools to do the leak-down. So, one step at a time. Will be interseting to see those results. One short question for the list (and this might be a very "newbie!" question): I've heard/read mention of a vacuum gauge -- do I need/want one, or will the compression check tell me more anyway? Thanks to all - and here's hoping I can eventually contribute something myself : ) Have a good weekend - hope everyone else is drivin', not wrenchin'! Jim 1982 Cherokee Laredo "Canyonero" ...and other toys... This email and any attached files are confidential and solely for the use of the original intended recipient. This communication represents the originator's personal views, which do not necessarily reflect those of Lightwave Microsystems. If you are not the original recipient or person responsible for delivering email to the intended recipient, this email has been received in error. Any unauthorized use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please notify postmaster-at-lightwavemicro.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:29:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Tom & Lisa King Subject: Re: [fsj: Gas leak???] James, 1. Considering my skid plate is about to rust off ( I can clearly see the liner) 2. I do not know the condition of the gas tank 3. I can smell gas but cannot locate a leak. I would probably be willing to take you up on your offer! BTW - Can I remove the skidplate and liner w/o the gas tank falling off? Also thanx to all who responded to my plea for help!! I understand that I am new to the list and have little to offer in return. Except maybe cheap tickets to Disney World ;-) Thanx Tom in Orlando '86 WG - ------Original Message------ From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) To: Michael Shimniok , fsj-at-digest.net Sent: October 20, 2000 5:27:23 AM GMT Subject: Re: [fsj: Gas leak???] A: While we're on this subject, anyone need a gas tank (with working sending unit) and skid plate for $40? Michael Shimniok wrote: Check: fuel filler hoses, all fuel lines and vent lines between tank and motor or emissions canister. Also check your gas cap, maybe just replace it for grins. It's a major PITA to change out the fuel/vent lines but probably worth it. Many of us suspect the tank vent lines that run behind the motor on pass side are a source of FSJ engine fires. I recently saw an otherwise ok 87 in the junkyard with a fire localized to this area. I've got FSJ BBQ on the brain cuz I narrowly escaped a major in-cabin, under-the-carpet electrical fire in my truck without even knowing it until last nite when I discovered 3 wires melted in half and a 2" burn crater in the carpet insulation! Scary!! Michael Tom & Lisa King wrote: Hello, I am new to the list but have a question. I have a 1986 Grand Wagoneer on which the gas tank plate is very (VERY) rusted. I have a replacement coming from California. But here is my question. I filled my gas tank up the other day and now I can smell gas outside the truck. One day it was only by the drivers door and last night only at the rear. I can see no leak!!!! Any ideas? Thanx Tom in Orlando - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that           is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:21:18 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: RE: stalling FSJ (long) Jim Pearson said: {- One short question for the list (and this might be a very "newbie!" {- question): I've heard/read mention of a vacuum gauge -- do I need/want one, {- or will the compression check tell me more anyway? http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/search_dsp.d2w/report?prrfnbr=26162&prmenbr=76&path=76%20537 (Or go to http://www.jegs.com/ and do a keyword search for "vacuum and pressure" (no quotes).) I bought one of these a few months ago at a local store for roughly the same price ($20). They're great for adjusting your carb yourself, and probably for detecting leaks in the vacuum system. I'd suggest getting one. You can probably set your carb ok by feel -- see how it's running, smell whether it's too rich or not, listen for pinging, etc., but that takes more time and is a lot more hit-or-miss. This helps you set things right in a lot fewer tries. (Same reason I need to get a timing light -- I've been doing pretty well setting it on my own, but would be nice to have finer, more definite control.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When it rains, why don't sheep shrink? - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:45:41 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: '60s Tonka Wagoneer http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=473666642 Described as "1950 s ? tonka jeep wagoneer tan color". But considering it IS a Wagoneer, it's gotta be at least '63... When was that first style of grill used, just '63-65? Or did the '65s already have the new, wide grill? Anyway, the pics are clickable for larger versions; decent pics and looks like the vehicle isn't in too bad shape. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If we're gonna beat the crap out of each other, it should at least be over a chick. -- Dawson Leary - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 14:28:19 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Fwd: GW site >From: "schapiroworldwide" >To: >Subject: GW site >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:56:07 -0400 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 > >John, > >I restore Grand Wagoneers and find good homes for them nationwide. Not >the expensive deal like Wagonmaster. > >Possibly you can include a link to my site on yours. > >www.grandwagoneers.com > >Lots of happy GW customers! > >Thanks, > >Saul Schapiro - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ "The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." ---Herbert Sebastian Agar Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 20 Oct 00 17:14:09 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Do I have a Timing problem?] The 360 in Troubled Child wouldn't run on anything but 91 without ping and that was only after retarding the timing below factor specs. I tried running intake/fuel system cleaner thru it twice. Never tried the trick of dribbling water down the carb which is supposed help burn out the carbon deposits which contribute to ping. I think maybe Jim B suggested colder plugs too. Mine did its pinging only at part throttle. Rather odd. I wondered if there might not be something wrong with the vacuum advance or if there was a spot where the fuel/air mix was too lean. I had a 2150 also. Altho that same carb is on another truck which has NO sign of pinging like this. Another thing to check is the EGR to make sure it's working when it is supposed to and you could try the tech bulletin fix (basically removing the delay valve IIRC). This problem was a major PITA for me and I finally gave up and I'm going to do a motor rebuild. One thing I wanted to do but never did was hook a vac gauge up to the advance and run the hose into the cabin so I could read the gauge while driving to see if advance vac was peaking while it pinged. Michael > Now, when I transition the throttle for instance making a turn on a > country road, throttle up and it shifts to second THEN chatters for several > seconds as the speed builds. If I letup on the throttle, the chatter fades. > > or > Going up a slight incline or small hill it chatters under throttle. > Sounds like timing right? > I have fiddled and farted and adjusted the timing till I am blue in the > face, but this truck will NOT run without chatter unless I have Premium fuel > in it. I've been using Premium for years in the thing as it has acted like > this for quite some time. But it is getting too expensive to put the good > stuff in all the time. > All I hear is that I'm a moron for using premium fuel. The truck > doesn't need hi-test, it was designed to burn regular. blah, blah, blah, I'm > telling you right now that I DARE not put regular in that thing or it > wouldn't last 50 miles. > So what is the deal here? Any ideas? > Checked vacumn advance on the distributor and the timing shift smoothly > in response to vacumn added manually at the distributor. But the vacumn > isn't "held". You can pump it down, but it comes right back to 0. > Guessing this is proper operation of the vacumn advance mechanism. > Vac at the manifold is 18 at idle, up to 22 at 1500-2000. > Vacumn responds to throttle nicely. or seems to, to me. > Now watching vacumn TO the distributor vacumn advance, from the CTO > valve, it responds also > to the throttle on a warm engine. I think that is good. > Idling up to 1500 RPM, goes from 0-8 lbs. > Idling up to 2000-2500 RPM it goes up from 8 -15 and holds there with > the throttle. > > So I finally had a new idea... MAYBE I am setting the timing wrong. > Now for me to put a timing light on the mark, I have to hold the light > up against the upper left side of the radiator tank and aim down in between > the brackets from there. This DOES cause an angular displacement of the > mark against the marker. So the questions are... > > Do you set the timing according to the mechanics angle of view? > or > Do you try to correct for this displacement by setting the timing a little > retarded compared to what you "see" so that if viewed straight on, it would > be right? > > If the latter, I have probably have had the timing set 3-5 degrees too > hot. > > So I finally set the timing so that it looks like about 7degrees viewed > from "the mechanics angle" and assume that is running it at about 10 if > viewed from an unobstructed front-on view. So 10 is a little retarded, it > should run kinda doggy and does, but it shouldn't chatter with the timing > slightly retarded, (or am I out to lunch on this), and it STILL pings... > Say your running about 45-50, on a paved county road, come up on a > significant 90degree turn, slow to about 30, keep on the throttle through > the curve, accelerating now and chatter chatter, (just lighter now than > before and less duration) as you go through 35-40+ and then just as you > start to even off the throttle she quiets down.... > Why does this thing "ping" nearly all the time with anything less that > ETHYL? [now that'll tell my age ;-) ] > JeepNut > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... > '92 Cherokee > ---------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 20:16:55 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: [fsj: Do I have a Timing problem?] Jim Blair says the vac advance mechanism should have held vacumn when I applied the 18 to it so I guess I have to rebuild/replace the distributor... hope to get time to do some homework tonight... It definately does not hold the vacumn, it drops right back down to 0 at a rapid rate after you pump it down. I can REALLY believe that might be it, because as I have dialed in the timing and played with the thing over the course of a week now, the way it acts seems like the timing is slipping back after peaking. JeepNut Michael Shimniok wrote: > The 360 in Troubled Child wouldn't run on anything but 91 without > ping and that was only after retarding the timing below factor specs. > I tried running intake/fuel system cleaner thru it twice. Never > tried the trick of dribbling water down the carb which is supposed > help burn out the carbon deposits which contribute to ping. I think > maybe Jim B suggested colder plugs too. Mine did its pinging only > at part throttle. Rather odd. I wondered if there might not be > something wrong with the vacuum advance or if there was a spot where > the fuel/air mix was too lean. I had a 2150 also. Altho that same > carb is on another truck which has NO sign of pinging like this. > Another thing to check is the EGR to make sure it's working when it > is supposed to and you could try the tech bulletin fix (basically > removing the delay valve IIRC). This problem was a major PITA for > me and I finally gave up and I'm going to do a motor rebuild. One > thing I wanted to do but never did was hook a vac gauge up to the > advance and run the hose into the cabin so I could read the gauge > while driving to see if advance vac was peaking while it pinged. > > Michael > > > Now, when I transition the throttle for instance making a turn on a > > country road, throttle up and it shifts to second THEN chatters for several > > seconds as the speed builds. If I letup on the throttle, the chatter > fades. > > > > or > > Going up a slight incline or small hill it chatters under throttle. > > Sounds like timing right? > > I have fiddled and farted and adjusted the timing till I am blue in the > > face, but this truck will NOT run without chatter unless I have Premium > fuel > > in it. I've been using Premium for years in the thing as it has acted like > > this for quite some time. But it is getting too expensive to put the good > > stuff in all the time. > > All I hear is that I'm a moron for using premium fuel. The truck > > doesn't need hi-test, it was designed to burn regular. blah, blah, blah, > I'm > > telling you right now that I DARE not put regular in that thing or it > > wouldn't last 50 miles. > > So what is the deal here? Any ideas? > > Checked vacumn advance on the distributor and the timing shift smoothly > > in response to vacumn added manually at the distributor. But the vacumn > > isn't "held". You can pump it down, but it comes right back to 0. > > Guessing this is proper operation of the vacumn advance mechanism. > > Vac at the manifold is 18 at idle, up to 22 at 1500-2000. > > Vacumn responds to throttle nicely. or seems to, to me. > > Now watching vacumn TO the distributor vacumn advance, from the CTO > > valve, it responds also > > to the throttle on a warm engine. I think that is good. > > Idling up to 1500 RPM, goes from 0-8 lbs. > > Idling up to 2000-2500 RPM it goes up from 8 -15 and holds there with > > the throttle. > > > > So I finally had a new idea... MAYBE I am setting the timing wrong. > > Now for me to put a timing light on the mark, I have to hold the light > > up against the upper left side of the radiator tank and aim down in between > > the brackets from there. This DOES cause an angular displacement of the > > mark against the marker. So the questions are... > > > > Do you set the timing according to the mechanics angle of view? > > or > > Do you try to correct for this displacement by setting the timing a little > > retarded compared to what you "see" so that if viewed straight on, it would > > be right? > > > > If the latter, I have probably have had the timing set 3-5 degrees too > > hot. > > > > So I finally set the timing so that it looks like about 7degrees viewed > > from "the mechanics angle" and assume that is running it at about 10 if > > viewed from an unobstructed front-on view. So 10 is a little retarded, it > > should run kinda doggy and does, but it shouldn't chatter with the timing > > slightly retarded, (or am I out to lunch on this), and it STILL pings... > > Say your running about 45-50, on a paved county road, come up on a > > significant 90degree turn, slow to about 30, keep on the throttle through > > the curve, accelerating now and chatter chatter, (just lighter now than > > before and less duration) as you go through 35-40+ and then just as you > > start to even off the throttle she quiets down.... > > Why does this thing "ping" nearly all the time with anything less that > > ETHYL? [now that'll tell my age ;-) ] > > JeepNut > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... > > '92 Cherokee > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net > "For every complex problem, there is a solution that > is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 20:05:32 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: Re: fsj: Plugged fuel line? > Went to a few auto parts store first - no luck. Just for > fun, went to the dealer and viola! got one for less than $5. Viola? As in the stringed instrument or the small flower? LOL ************************************************************************* Kim Smith 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 20:26:02 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: Re: Do I have a Timing problem? > Too much leak-down is when you can't easily hold the vac. advance at full advance > sucking on a hose hooked-up to the nipple. Watch out or the den mother might smite you! Sounds like part of the Monica Lewinski transcripts. ;-) ************************************************************************* Kim Smith 1980 Wagoneer "Joe", 360,2v,727,219 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 19:30:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: fsj: Some AMC/ Ralph Nader info From: "Tom Benvie" To: "amc list" Subject: RE: VIN plates, and a computer question Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 07:22:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;         charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the subject of VIN plates. In mid 1966 the feds mandated the 13 digit VIN and mandated it be attached in a permanent location. Before this, the VIN could be as small as 7 digits (maybe smaller) and was attached a number of different places, including being attached with screws, which meant it could easily be removed and attached to another car. My speculation is the change came in Jan, 1966 as that is when a number of safety issues were mandated by the Govt. Some of this was a result of Ralph Nader's work and his book Unsafe At Any Speed, a book commonly thought to tear apart Chevy's Corvair, but in actuality it tore apart the whole auto industry. If you were to look at your door data plate in 66 you would see in the black area the statement that says something like "this conforms to the National Highway...." and then lists a set of numbers-these numbers are the number of the regs. (I saw somewhere on the web once what all these numbers and regs were). 1968 saw some more changes, such as side markers, shoulder belts, etc., plus a reg stating the VINs new location under the windshield. Early 68 cars had the VIN on the shocktower, later cars in 68 had both. The VIN tag was riveted to the body of the car just after it was painted at the factory. Now, I don't know when the VIN swap happened. I know AMC incorporated some changes in the cars from the beginning of production, such as side markers. These weren't required until Jan 1, 1968. Shoulder belts were mandatory also beginning Jan 1, and were an extra cost option on all cars made before that (I have seen a number of early 68 Javelins without seatbelts, and have owned one AMX without-3rd AMX built). I also believe that the cars that were on the line on Jan 1 did not have to have the seatbelts, as I have seen some early Jan cars without them. My guess is it was for cars actually beginning to be built in Jan, not cars that were started in Dec but finished in Jan (and again, this is less than a few 100 cars). The color of the door tag in early 68 was black, but then changed to blue. I haven't pinned it down, but I am betting it has something to do with the new laws beginning Jan 1, 68. (Remember I've been asking for data plate info to include color of plate for years). Now I also know for a fact the VIN did not go under the windshield on these early Jan cars, but it did eventually get there. And the blue data plates on 68s didn't last long either, as they were changed to green before the 68s were finished. Again my speculation, but I bet the color change in data plates had something to do with new regs, to include the VIN location. At any rate, the wording in the green section of the plate also changed, and it now said the car conformed to all applicable regs, instead of listing which ones. In 1969 there were more changes, such as mandatory headrests, which AMC incorporated from the beginning, but didn't have to until Jan 1, 69. In 70 there were still more changes, most notably the size of the taillights on cars, which meant AMC had to redesign their entire line of cars to conform (and if it wasn't a new law, do you think the 70 AMX and Javelin would have used the 68/9 taillight? You bet they would). Other sweeping reforms would be 1975 with unleaded fuel, cats, etc, 82 or so with the 17 digit VIN, 86 with the center, eye level stoplight, 92 or so with the driver's airbag, etc, etc. Maybe someone can find the web site for these-I think it has to do with the National Highway Transportation Board, or something like that (brain fog this early). Computer question-I just received 20 PC workstations donated to my school, non pentium 486s. The district Tech guy says send them back as we run Windows NT and these machines can't handle this. Says he can't put a Windows 95/98 machine on an NT network for security reasons. Is this true? What would some problems be with this, and could we get around it? I'm still keeping them as stand alone units if nothing else as we just don't have too many computers in this school. And I've been good, but am I the only one who just hates these Damn Yankees???? And the Mets as well, villains of the 86 "ball through his legs" series with the Red Sox? I hope this confuses all the New Yorkers as to who they want to win. Wait til next year, Boston Red Sox, 1918 World Champions! Thomas M. Benvie ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 4.6L stroker and 4 speed auto on LPG EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1076 **************************