From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Nov 11 13:57:59 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, November 10 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1099 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? Re: [fsj: safety ratings and rollovers] Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? fsj: '67 Wagoneer on E-bay. fsj: question on J truck doors Re: xj: Re: fsj: Re: FSJ Track widths Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? fsj: tilt column from a SuperWagoneer anyone? fsj: Portland (express) Run... fsj: crazy thought... fsj: Re: your Wagoneer on ebay fsj: Re: xj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:59:28 -0700 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? The trouble is that the speedometer and odometer don't share the same mechanism. The odo is a purely gear driven affair, and is very linear in its response to gearing and tire changes. The speedo, on the other hand, relies on a spinning magnet to drive its needle. Often, the speedo has baseline errors that persist, in spite of changes in gearing and tire size. I'm surprised, though John, that your speedo shop didn't recommend them recalibrating the speedo, before trying drive gear changes. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:14:52 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Kim Smith wrote: >-->The trouble is that the speedometer and odometer don't share the same mechanism. The >-->odo is a purely gear driven affair, and is very linear in its response to gearing >-->and tire changes. The speedo, on the other hand, relies on a spinning magnet to >-->drive its needle. Often, the speedo has baseline errors that persist, in spite of >-->changes in gearing and tire size. I'm surprised, though John, that your speedo shop >-->didn't recommend them recalibrating the speedo, before trying drive gear changes. we got the odometer correct. the error in the speedo head was exactly 5mph no matter what gear I put in the xfr case... which is why I'm confused now... why is it 3mph off in a linear fashion? y'all don't seem to be getting this because I'm not explaining it very well... ;) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:14:33 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? A: It is 3mph off because the NEEDLE is not clocked on the shaft correctly (maybe that will be more understandable) In other words, you will read 3 mph at 0, or 103 at 100 mph or 203 at 200 mph. On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Kim Smith wrote: The trouble is that the speedometer and odometer don't share the same mechanism. The odo is a purely gear driven affair, and is very linear in its response to gearing and tire changes. The speedo, on the other hand, relies on a spinning magnet to drive its needle. Often, the speedo has baseline errors that persist, in spite of changes in gearing and tire size. I'm surprised, though John, that your speedo shop didn't recommend them recalibrating the speedo, before trying drive gear changes. we got the odometer correct. the error in the speedo head was exactly 5mph no matter what gear I put in the xfr case... which is why I'm confused now... why is it 3mph off in a linear fashion? y'all don't seem to be getting this because I'm not explaining it very well... ;) john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:31:38 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? correct, but it was FIVE MPH off before, now it's THREE. I haven't checked the odometer yet... if I take SuperDawg to Portland tomorrow I'll be able to ... will probably take the benz, chasing SuperWagoneer parts in Portland, getting the 327 4v setup for mark and the Wag console for SuperDawg. :) john On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, James Blair wrote: >-->A: It is 3mph off because the NEEDLE is not clocked on the shaft >-->correctly (maybe that will be more understandable) >--> In other words, you will read 3 mph at 0, or 103 at 100 mph or 203 at >-->200 mph. >--> >-->On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Kim Smith wrote: >-->The trouble is that the speedometer and odometer don't share the same >-->mechanism. The odo is a purely gear driven affair, and is very linear in >-->its response to gearing and tire changes. The speedo, on the other hand, >-->relies on a spinning magnet to drive its needle. Often, the speedo has >-->baseline errors that persist, in spite of changes in gearing and tire >-->size. I'm surprised, though John, that your speedo shop didn't recommend >-->them recalibrating the speedo, before trying drive gear changes. >-->we got the odometer correct. the error in the speedo head was exactly >-->5mph no matter what gear I put in the xfr case... which is why I'm >-->confused now... >-->why is it 3mph off in a linear fashion? >-->y'all don't seem to be getting this because I'm not explaining it very >-->well... ;) >-->john >--> >--> >-->************************************* >-->JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 >-->http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html >-->************************************** >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 9 Nov 00 12:20:12 MST From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: safety ratings and rollovers] john wrote: > I've been driving XJ's for over 10 years, they are very stable compared I have to say my friend's 94 XJ is quite excellent to drive. Feels very tight and stable. Yet he got it to replace the newer XJ that he rolled off the highway, due to a trailer wagging the proverbial dog. I'm right there with you about driver skill, driving smooth, etc. I have a Nissan Sentra SE-R (2.0L 140hp motor, 2500# car, "sport tuned" suspension, which I have run in at least a hundred autocross races with a few videos, pics, and trophies to prove it. :) I have had the inside rear wheel in the air in fire-hydrant pose more times than I can count (it's fun, trust me, not to mention easy with any fwd car, but usually a long way from rollover). One time, so I'm told, came real close to getting both tires up. I've also spun it off the road around a corner at around 70mph when a bump got the rear end too light to grip. Knowing the limits of that car as I do, I have to say that I'd NEVER try any of that stuff with my FSJ. Err... well... almost never. Once I was trying to arrive in Grant early. It's about an hour drive along curvy mountain roads. I made the trip in 45 minutes, but not without doing some tire squalling. The Skyjacker 4" lift and 31's probably helped more than hurt. Same for the sway bar. As a general rule of thumb, though, I will not attempt performance driving with any car whose cornering limit is more likely to cause rolling than sliding. I've only seen two cars during autocrossing lift both tires off the ground. One was a Saab Sonet, the other a Ford Festiva. Oddly enough rollovers are very rare in SCCA autocross events. They also won't allow high center of gravity vehicles to race. Seems wise. You're very right. XJ's seem to corner well and have a lot of motor for the vehicle's weight, not to mention posessing responsive steering. It would be easy to drive the car beyond it's limits. Tall vehicles ARE usually more prone to tipover than most short vehicles because they almost always have a higher center of gravity. Yes, there are lots of factors, but it should be common sense not to drive most trucks like you would a sports car. (Maybe the Hummer is an exception due to the incredible track width?) Common sense dictates simply not pushing high-COG vehicles to their cornering limits and to just be aware of it so that when you go to swerve at highway speed you already know not to jerk the wheel or make too tight of a turn, lest your truck wind up in a very unstable condition. At 75mph it is a rather sobering thing to try fast lane changes in a Grand Wagoneer... I think I'd rather run right into the obstacle than risk going sideways at that kind of speed. Oh, I have seen one rollover of an FSJ off-road and it was nearly intentional, where the vehicle was driven to a nearly 45 degree angle when it didn't have to be. Stock lift, 33x9.50 tires, WT Cherokee. It rolled slowly. Last comment would be that learning to performance drive a sports car (or at least a short vehicle) is an invaluable skill that can be applied to any vehicle-- in the sense of knowing where the vehicle limits are and how to stay in control of the vehicle in all conditions: blowouts, ice, rain, snow, speed, accidents, etc. To learn more you can check out the scca website http://www.scca.org/ Hoping to stay rubber side down for a long time... Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:33:55 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? A: Gonna carry the junk back in the Benz? Not a pretty thought! (especially since the oil smell will drive the price down!) Did you check several speeds before, or just one? I recall 60 mph but nothing else. You were already off by 3, and the ratio difference would exagerate that. Is your son going with the Holley Pro-Jection? He'll pass more gas stations that way! John wrote: correct, but it was FIVE MPH off before, now it's THREE. I haven't checked the odometer yet... if I take SuperDawg to Portland tomorrow I'll be able to ... will probably take the benz, chasing SuperWagoneer parts in Portland, getting the 327 4v setup for mark and the Wag console for SuperDawg. :) john On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, James Blair wrote: A: It is 3mph off because the NEEDLE is not clocked on the shaft correctly (maybe that will be more understandable)   In other words, you will read 3 mph at 0, or 103 at 100 mph or 203 at 200 mph. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 EFax:603-215-1688 http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 14:13:47 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) said: {- A: It is 3mph off because the NEEDLE is not clocked on the shaft {- correctly (maybe that will be more understandable) {- In other words, you will read 3 mph at 0, or 103 at 100 mph or 203 at {- 200 mph. Maybe it's not the _needle_ that's slightly off (linear, as described), but all the _numbers_ painted on the speedo face! I recommend you take it all apart and repaint all the numbers just a little bit to the side... ;) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blessed is the man who has nothing to say and cannot be persuaded to say it. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 12:30:24 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, James Blair wrote: >-->A: Gonna carry the junk back in the Benz? Not a pretty thought! >-->(especially since the oil smell will drive the price down!) huh? I've shuttled a number of FSJ parts via a Diesel Benz, including a full set of leaf springs AND a Wagoneer gas tank... inside the trunk... with the lid closed... What's an intake manifold and a console? sheesh... You've never owned a Benz, have you... if you had you'd understand... ;) >--> Did you check several speeds before, or just one? I recall 60 mph but >-->nothing else. You were already off by 3, and the ratio difference ur still mixin' apples and oranges... If the speedo head was off by 5mph no MATTER what speedo gear i used, why would it change??? The only thing I can think of is the my overall speedo is reading two mph slower, but that doesn't make sense either... think about it. I went to a smaller tire, that means the system is travelling at a higher rpm.... so I should be reading FASTER, not slower... see my confusion? The only other thing I did is pull the dash out to fix the heater cable. It's possible I moved something in the cluster itself... Until I take a long run on the interstate or spend another $60 to have the speedo calibratation checked, I won't know for sure... I'll work up the details later: tire size: 28.8" rear axle: 3.31 1:1 (4th gear): - gear in transfer case: 29 tooth speedo/odo unit itself: ? >-->would exagerate that. Is your son going with the Holley Pro-Jection? >-->He'll pass more gas stations that way! I told him what it costs... he basically laughed at me... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:20:10 EST From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: '67 Wagoneer on E-bay. It's in the Seattle area. The guy says "The vehicle has 51,000 miles on it. It is a 327 v8, manual 3 speed on the column. all stock." I have a pic if anyone's interested. It looks very well preserved. Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 17:58:46 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: question on J truck doors were the doors on the J-trucks the same all years? Looking at the idea of replacing doors and wondering if there are any differences... There's a local '64 J200 owner who has some serious door rot. I'm still considering upgrading to a set of GW doors so I get power everything... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 18:17:37 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: xj: Re: fsj: Re: FSJ Track widths At 06:01 PM 11/9/00 -0800, Paul W. wrote: >I'll take it! If it's all right with you and John, could you drop it off at >John's next time you're by his place and I'll pick it up? > >Paul > >James Blair wrote: > > I have a FREE FSJ NT front axle housing only is someone wants it (I > > just have to pull my gears) Or for $50 you can have the 2.72s from my > > '84 J10 with it. works for me... If I get down to Jimmy B's with SuperDawg before he makes it up here I'll grab it for ya. :) Looks like I'll be taking the little wagoneer to Portland tomorrow to get the 4v manifold and carb for Mark's J3000, and the console out of a Super Wagoneer for SuperDawg. :) The parts for the Benz didn't show up today... :( I may still try to use it... but with out glow plugs getting it started in this cold weather might be a bit of a work out for the starter... - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:19:24 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? (PROBLEM: SuperDawg's speedo was 5mph off no matter what speedo gear I used in the xfr case. I switched him from 31x10.5's to p235's and now the Speedo is off by exactly 3mph across the range... very strange... unless of course the tire change just altered the 5mph thing by 2mph... ;) At 02:08 PM 11/9/00 -0500, MadMarx wrote: >John, I think the easiest way would be to remove the speedo lense, and >slightly bend the needle so it points to the correct number. I believe that >is the only way you are going to be able to fix this... > >Mark actually I was looking at the Four Wheel Parts Catalog at the allergist... for $66 I can get a nice new 120mph speedo, million mile odometer and a TRIP ODOMETER... and I was looking at the other gauges they had... Hmmm.. I could build my own panel with just the gauges I wanted. Rewiring the stock stuff is simple. I'd build my own connector to mate to the factory harness so I could always revert back to stock. That would solve the problem of where to put the volt gauge and the 2nd fuel gauge and the vacuum gauge... and the tach... :) Will a "CJ" style speedo work on an FSJ? Does anyone know if they will function the same? I can always change the output gearing of the xfr case. One thing I'm really liking about having a Full Size Jeep with a 258 is the plethora of parts for it. :) Of course if you shop in the cj catalogs you occasionally see stuff for the 304 and 360. john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:52:07 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: tilt column from a SuperWagoneer anyone? I'm leaving for Portland in the late morning... The guy still has the tilt column from his '67 Super Wagoneer. He also has all the air conditioning stuff. (My son and I are buying the 4v carb/manifold and the console/shifter). I think I can fit the steering column in the trunk of my Benz, if I can get it started... the glow plug module didn't make it here today. :( How much should I offer for the column??? john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 21:05:53 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Portland (express) Run... I'm heading down to Portland Friday (tomorrow)... there is a German deli down there that has the European country decals, like the USA or D for the back of cars... Also the AMSOIL warehouse is down there. If anyone up here needs either let me know before late morning. If there is interest I'll swing down to Powell or Tigard before heading to Clackamas... Also let me know if you're interested in the tilt column out of a 67 Super Wagoneer. ;) It should fit in the trunk of the Benz... I'm hoping to take the 300SD down. The glow plug module didn't arrive from the Dealer today. :( I think I'll run out and through my old magnetic mount engine heater (used to use it on my tractor) to take the chill off so he lights off in the morning. Someone is trying to get me to sell the 300SD for $5,100... I'm into it almost $6k... I think I'll just drop insurance on SuperDawg and do more work on him. :) He's making progress, the ride has improved greatly with the blocks and new tires. I like the little wagoneer, but I'd much rather be getting 30mpg than 16. :) Besides, the seats in the xj kill my back. SuperDawg seats two, and my daughter decided to skip college classes and go shopping at Clackamas town center. :) My son was supposed to go down, most of the parts are for him anyway... but he's going to work... Hey, you Seattle types, I can bring back Bratwurst if that turns your crank... ;) The Edelweiss Deli makes some great brats! :) We'll probably be at Clackamas Town Center around 2 or 3, taking off around 4pm and heading down to Silverton... then driving back... not a lot of time for visiting... If you're down in the area, drop me an email and I'll give ya my cell number and we can meet up for pictures or a latte down in Clackamas. :) I'd love to head over to Beaverton and check out Fredric's new UNIMOG!!! and to say hi to Brad and Greg and Whit and... but I have a feeling we'll start late, arrive late and get home even later. We're so lame... :) And too cheap to spend the night. So many folks I want to visit with down there. My old friends from ITT and Intel... and from Seminary... sheesh... never enough time. :( john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 21:08:51 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: crazy thought... I've got several gauges I've never used, one is still sealed in the original packaging... One is a temperature gauge in Celius even... must have gotten that in Europe. Thinking about putting 'em up on ebay... also, would a Ross Perot for president bumper sticker have any value? I've got a few, was thinking about putting 'em up on ebay.. Let me know on the gauges or the bumper sticker... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 21:19:39 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: your Wagoneer on ebay t 12:05 AM 11/10/00 -0500, Sking2815-at-cs.com wrote: >Hi John, One bid, so it will sell. I am just off the I-90 and I-405 >junction. thanks >sking2815 good for you. I pulled your phone number and am sharing this with the fsj list. One of the guy's in eastern washington sent me the URL. I'd post it but I have to reboot my lame Win98 computer, it's acting up on me... I haven't rebooted in a couple of days... I really need to get my HP system back on line... :) I'll reboot, and send the URL to the list for you... I'm heading to portland in the morning to pickup some parts from a '67 Super Wagoneer... :) My first Wagoneer was a '67. :) My son has a '67 J3000. If it's ok, I put your picture up on my server, was going to let you know if you hadn't a bid that you could link to it: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/67wagoneer.jpg It looks like a nice rig. I can remember all the problems with mine, like trying to put gas in it... :) check out my '83 J10 Stepside: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/SuperDawg/Oct29-2000/superdawg-oct2000.jpg john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 21:42:03 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: xj: 3mph now, not 5mph??? At 09:11 PM 11/9/00 -0800, Paul W. wrote: >john wrote: > > Will a "CJ" style speedo work on an FSJ? Does anyone know if they will > > function the same? I can always change the output gearing of the xfr case. > >Well, they are cable driven with a threaded coupler at both ends and the >speedo >is very large (I think it's 10")... if you've ever had a Willys Wagon or PU, >the later ones (early 50's-on) use the same unit as CJ's thru '75. '76-'86 >CJ's have the same size speedo but the graphics on the face are a little >different and the bezel looks different. (The newer ones _may_ use a push-on >cable on the speedo head, I'm not sure.) I'm looking at the one in the Four Wheel Drive Hardware catalog, page 65, it's an EQUUS, 3-3/8". part #7802 million mile odo, 0-120, and a TRIP odometer!!! $44.50. I'm thinking of keeping the Benz and taking SuperDawg off line some more. Howell TBI, custom gauge setup in the dash... body lift, and so on... The Carter BBD is starting to irritate me... won't idle again, even after Jimmy B worked his incredible magic on it. :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1099 **************************