From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Apr 11 17:03:37 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, April 11 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1282 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Diesel swap Re: fsj: Re: 4.0 in J-10 Re: fsj: Nissan Diesels fsj: R.J.'s New engine.. Re: fsj: R.J.'s New engine.. fsj: parts run over the border... fsj: 1981 AMC 360 engine teardown disposition fsj: FSJ hp changes Re: fsj: R.J.'s New engine.. fsj: Engine measurement correction FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:40:31 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Diesel swap >From: Brian Wall >Subject: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #1280 >OK, John. You now have me curious. If one could find one of these MB >diesels, what trans would you need to mate to a NP228? What else would you >have to do? And approx. how much would parts cost? you can find a used 3.0L Turbo Diesel from $1,500 to $3,500 at salvage lots specializing in Mercedes. the way I plan on doing it is to attempt to make an adapter for the MB to the aT, the other option is to do a divorced xfr case setup... and use the MB tranny. I haven't seen the flex plate on a Benz, not sure how that would work... I'll look next chance I get... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux **** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://junkscience.com ** http://snopes.com ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA ...don't leave life without Jesus, please... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:24:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 4.0 in J-10 A: This is going to be fun to answer to. Hopefully I won't mix up who said what! From: john At 11:53 AM 4/9/01 -0400, jason-t-phelps wrote: >>I have a 4.2-727-208 in my '83 J-10 Laredo with the Mopar (HESCO) MPI retro setup. It runs great and I get about 15 mpg after I factor in the added rolling distance of 33" tires. (3.37 gears) A: You mean 3.31 gears? You would get much more oomph with a 4.0L head on there! John: >wow, that's encouraging. I'll have the 4.0L from a '96 with an Aisin Warner 30-80LE, 235's (or maybe my 31x10.5's, my '67 Panel will wear those most of the time, but I may switch them back and forth. ;) and I have the same 3.31 gears. But with the AW4 I'll have an overdrive, can't remember if it's 24 or 26%. A: It changed. The early ones were .70:1 and later ones were .75:1 (lower O/D with the HO motors) Jo: >with my 4.2L, 5spd and the 235's I ranged from 13 to 16 in the J10 stepside. Mileage dropped because of the carb... it ran like crap at idle. :) A: Considering how much that BBD had been tampered with before you got it, it was lucky for you it ran! I still think the PO did the ream out of the jets to get more power and less idle stalling. Ja: >>However, as I have learned from the list and HESCO, the head design leaves much to be desired. When I read the instructions, they specify using 93 octane or better. I melted a piston in a good running engine, using 87 on a trip, due, presumably to detonation, which I can't hear. (Especially while playing the radio.) AAA Plus covered the 95 mile trip back home. A: That's because the HO system doesn't have a knock sensor and relies on preset maps to feed the motor. That's also why I'm going with the Renix system on my stroker! Even if I run gasoline, it won't knock! Jo: >the previous previous owner of my j10 removed all the anti-knock stuff, the electronic ignition, stock carb/manifold... catalyst, the guy must have been a major moron. What kind of flippin' idiot would remove an electronic ignition system for a dual point ignition??? The thought of doing that is so asinine I can't believe anyone living would be that stupid. A: Considering he couldn't get it to run right with the original system, and didn't have access to this list, he was just trying for something simple that functioned. Jo: >He had the clifford intake with a big old holley 2 barrel on it too... I was getting about 12 mpg... and it ran like crap... A: That's because when it comes to carbs, Holley has a HOLE in the middle of it's name (HOlLEy) and the throttle lever is the flush handle! I do like the strap on TBI system (#502-20S for AMC V8s. I forget the 1 bbl 6 cyl set up's number, but the factory Jeep efi is much cheaper for me) though for it's simplicity. Ja: >>Then I made the mistake of dropping in a Pep Boys (88-89 4.2) engine which was awaiting another project. It lasted 6900 mi. before blowing the head gasket between cyls. 5 and 6. A: Sounds like they didn't retorque the head. Re-Con is sucking up a rebuild for one of our employees. Either they used the wrong heads, or something weird is wrong with the motor. 2.8L GM V6, and within 100 miles, it pumped ALL the oil from the oilpan into the rad! It forced the cap to explode from pressure (new rad and cap) I don't know how they managed that one! Ja: >>I took another compression test after replacing the head gasket and found several cyls. down, one reading 110 #. When I pulled the pistons, I found that the rings on the low reading cylinders were assembled incorrectly, with the gaps in line in varying degrees, from directly inline, to about 3/4" of stagger. The 3 that were staggered correctly read 170 #. A: If the cylinder walls were out of round, the rings will be pushed till they line up like that too. Jo: >I've wandered into the new pep boys here in Everett a couple times, and then wandered back out, not impressed... A: Haven't been to one yet (the competition, dontcha know! ) Ja: >>HESCO has told me the head design on the 4.2 leaves much to be desired, and recommends Champion RC9YC4 (now # 430) plugs (I like Autolites) and told me I can have as much as 6 degrees of spark advance taken out at a Jeep servicecenter. This I haven't yet done, but will, before replacing the engine again. A: Stick with the Autolites (it's what the stroker list guys run) It also depends how the dist is indexed as well. All the spark advance, etc is controlled by the computer and only the dealer can reset the map. Jo: >if you didn't have the mopar efi I'd almost recommend doing the 4.0L swap, however even those motors have some challenges, piston slap in the #1 hole for instance... exhaust manifolds crack and leak... A: If he went with the 4.0L, he'd have less ping trouble and the motor would just need the intake. Making the 4.2L motor so it can handle the lower octane with shaving the head/block to get under 0.06" or over 1.0" quench area will relieve ping too (more compression ratio, and be able to run lower octane! Pretty wild huh?) There is a TON of tech info on this on the strokers list on http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/strokers We even have some Hesco and other stroker companies popping in once in awhile with info and parts kits. Jo: >I'd recommend going all 4.0L or all 4.2L, mixing and matching isn't ideal, even when you know what you're doing... I just have a bad feeling about it... ;) A: 4.0L head and con rods, 4.2L crank and a rebuild kit with pistons from Hesco or Accurate power is the way to go! I'm going with the 4.2L crank and rods, with early 4.0L head and block with 0.030 pistons and about 10.5 to one compression, but I'm going with LPG injection, and it's over 120 equivalent - ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 4.6L, O/D auto on LPG, '86 Comanche with AMC 4 cyl, 5 speed http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:56:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Nissan Diesels A: What HP is the later Nissan Turbo diesels used in the '82 up Maxima wagons? What would the NET HP be on the MB diesel with all the Jeep's goodies added? (Remember, that's why FSJ's rating changed from year to year, but the motors and cams didn't!) BTW, the Nissan is a converted copy of the BMW motor, and it also has a timing chain, not a belt! From: john I took a look, they used 6 cylinder Nissan engines in the IH: in 1979: Nissan CN6-33 Diesel, bxs 3.27"x3.94", 198ci kiki mechanical fuel injection, 22:1 compression ratio 81 hp -at-3,800 rpm, 138ft lbs torque at 1200-1600rpm. 662 lb engine? the 78 put out 92 hp -at-4,000rpm... hmmm... but lower torque at higher rpm... This is interesting since the 2.1L all aluminum Renault Turbo Diesel in my 85 xj pumped out 85hp and 115 ft lbs of torque... the Nissan is around 3.25 liters (maybe designated 3.3???) While the little Renault was 128 cu in! I still think the 3.0L Mercedes 5 cylinder Turbo Diesel used from 82 to 85 would be the best engine to use... Bosch injection pump, clean design, timing chain... simple... ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 4.6L, O/D auto on LPG, '86 Comanche with AMC 4 cyl, 5 speed http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:52:29 -0500 From: Cyber Phoenix Subject: fsj: R.J.'s New engine.. Well.. I finally got a new engine , well.. Working on it as we read this, Me and a friend took it out in my tiny shed.. it is really heavy to move!.. had to use a chain and a come along to line up with the chain hoist! I expect delivery about thursday... ready to go, I still need to paint it though, ( AMC Colors ) What brand of spray paint should I use? It wound up costing 1,500.00.. But that is a long block with everything done and then some, over bored, and a new RV cam is replacing the stock , for better low end and mid range torque. This was a highly recommended local outfit, Of course I did my homework on it's rep, and was more then satisfied. They picked it up and delivered it for free at my house. After over 3 1/2 months of trying to find someone, on the net, it turns out the best deal was local.. I also got a small Buzz box ( Welder ) Me and a friend are going to make a (trailer .. for my new lawn business), new bumpers, bars.. ect. Here it went from chilly and rainy to like sunny and 86 today.. never had a spring! Have a good one! R.J. 80 J-10 Honcho ( Southern Comfort...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:30:54 -0700 From: Paul & Megan Kershner Subject: Re: fsj: R.J.'s New engine.. That sounds great, R.J. I'm supposed to get my '84 GW back tomorrow with the newly rebuilt engine installed, complete with Edelbrock Performer setup (Carb, Manifold, Cam, Lifters, Timing Set). John Meister is gonna give me a ride up to the shop tomorrow to pick it up. Can't wait to give back the rice burner I borrowed from a friend... pk Cyber Phoenix wrote: > > Well.. I finally got a new engine , well.. Working on it as we read > this, Me and a friend took it out in my tiny shed.. it is really heavy > to move!.. had to use a chain and a come along to line up with the chain > hoist! > I expect delivery about thursday... ready to go, I still need to paint > it though, ( AMC Colors ) What brand of spray paint should I use? > It wound up costing 1,500.00.. But that is a long block with everything > done and then some, over bored, and a new RV cam is replacing the stock > , for better low end and mid range torque. This was a highly recommended > local outfit, Of course I did my homework on it's rep, and was more then > satisfied. They picked it up and delivered it for free at my house. > After over 3 1/2 months of trying to find someone, on the net, it turns > out the best deal was local.. I also got a small Buzz box ( Welder ) Me > and a friend are going to make a (trailer .. for my new lawn business), > new bumpers, bars.. ect. Here it went from chilly and rainy to like > sunny and 86 today.. never had a spring! > > Have a good one! > > R.J. > > 80 J-10 Honcho ( Southern Comfort...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:07:54 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: parts run over the border... let's see, I'm on revision 3 of the Gary's Auto Wrecking adventure in BC... I get to work this weekend (easter) on a network upgrade, so I'll get a day off to make up for it... so, I'm heading up to Maple Ridge on Thursday April 19, hanging out a bit on Friday April 20 and heading back that Friday night. It turns out that there is some sort of antique event down here on Saturday the 21st... hey, it works for me, I'm gonna start working on my truck, or my shop!!! :) I'll have everything I need except concrete. ;) So, this will probably put a serious damper on meeting up with anyone north of the border, won't it? I'm even giving thought to taking my '83 300SD... I'm pretty sure the Aisin Warner 30-80LE will fit in the trunk... ;) I have one to test, will check it out later... Benz Friendz is sending me a blower motor, tach unit and some trim pieces, if I get them installed then the 300SD will be in perfect order. :) I've been getting 25mpg in town with it... If the tranny doesn't fit, it'll be another adventure in the little wagoneer. :) I'll check to see if they have any fan shrouds up there, I think Paul Kershner needs one and so does Karl Kuehn, that '80 Cherokee was missing one... Curtis, does my Panel have one, I can't remember... :) So, it's off to Maple Ridge, BC on April 19th, heading back April 20th. Any Benz wrecking yards up there? ;) Sounds like Jim Blair is going to make sure the border is open, he's heading up a few hours before me. :) Any other Jeep parts needed by any Puget Sound types? later, john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:01:23 -0500 From: "Gaines, Kenneth L. MM2 (SIMA TX)" Subject: fsj: 1981 AMC 360 engine teardown disposition Hi there all... Sorry I haven't been around for a while. Things at work have been really hectic to say the least. I finally got around to disassembling the AMC 360 that I destroyed several months ago. Here is what I found. The pistons in the ORIGINAL block appear to be FORGED pistons. Imagine that. I brought one of them to work and put an outside micrometer on it. The nominal OD of this piston (#4) was 4.051". I havent measured the bore yet, but all 8 cylinders appear to be in good condition. No scoring or gouging was evident in any of the cylinder bores. There is some taper evident, however. I tried to push a piston out through the bottom of the bore...it didn't work. The ring ridge was VERY minimal...the pistons came out with very little coaxing from a 2x4 and a small hammer. No rings broke when I removed the piston/con rod assemblies. The bearings all appeared to be in decent condition considering their age (20 years of abuse). The crankshaft journals all looked to be in good condition. I figure that I will have the machinists here at work cut the journals to -0.010" and use a set of undersized bearings when I finally reassemble the engine. I did, however, find a LOT of sludge buildup in the engine. The oil pump pickup foot was pretty much crapped up with all sorts of assorted nastiness. The camshaft bearings are toast. The front bearing was worn down to the steel shell. There was NO bearing material left on it at all...I found what probably was once the front cam bearing in the oil pan and on the oil pump foot. This is probably where the engine failure began. There is a spot in the lifter valley (outside of the lifter bore for #1 intake lifter) where the bent pushrod was rubbing against the block before it broke into 3 pieces. Oh...the oil dipstick tube is gone...where, I don't know, but it is gone. The cylinder heads are a completely different story. To start it off, I found 3 valves burned beyond reuse...in my opinion (this is a good reason to con my wife into letting me buy a set of stainless steel Manley valves). The valve springs are very weak (another reason to get my wife to let me buy a set of parts...Edelbrock springs, Isky adjustable guide plates, Crane spring keepers and locks, CrMo pushrods, aluminum roller rockers). The head gaskets were so bad that they pretty much peeled off of the heads with almost no effort at all. The heads will definitely require a clean-up cut on the sealing surfaces. Luckily enough, there were no cracks evident on either of the heads. I will have the guys here in our NDT shop do a dye-penetrant test and a Magna-Flux test on the heads to be certain. I would have the machinists here do the heads for me, but their milling machines are not really set up to do cylinder heads correctly. I am planning to have a complete performance job done on these heads...phosphor bronze valve guides, new seats, roller rockers/guide plates setup, springs shimmed to correct installed height, etc, etc. Now for the rebuild part. First, I am kinda torn between camshaft kits and intake manifolds. I have used both the Edelbrock and the Comp Cams bumpsticks in the past...both with great results. I would like to use the Edelbrock Performer AMC intake manifold again. I know that the Performer package is supposed to be dyno-tested, but I used the Comp Cams camshaft with a Performer manifold and the results were more than acceptable. I am also considering using the OEM 2V intake, but I can't decide on which cam to use with it. Another point of interest is this: I can't seem to find the piston to bore clearance spec anywhere. It appears to be around 0.0278" against a stock bore. Is this too much clearance? If not, I might procure a set of file fit rings and install them after I break the cylinder bore ridge and clean the bores up with a honing tool. Any ideas on this? All in all, this engine seems to be in pretty good shape. It suffered what I thought to be a catastrophic failure. After inspection, the engine didn't seem to have very much wrong with it. This fact attests to the strength and durability that AMC built into these powerplants. AFAICT, this engine is completely rebuildable and, if properly done, will last another 20 years...unless the environmentalists have their way, then this poor engine will just be a relic of good days gone by. Well, that's about all for this post. Wait, I forgot to tell you guys that our attempt at making the AMC emblems was a bust. We are planning to try it again when we can get some more of the mold-making material. If anyone has any ideas about my engine project, let me know. Keep in mind that this engine is going into a 1980 CJ-7, not an FSJ. The FSJ project is still under construction. Have a good day all. Ken ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 2001 10:11:33 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: fsj: FSJ hp changes Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) wrote: > A: What HP is the later Nissan Turbo diesels used in the '82 up Maxima > wagons? What would the NET HP be on the MB diesel with all the Jeep's > goodies added? (Remember, that's why FSJ's rating changed from year to > year, but the motors and cams didn't!) Hmmm... The only thing I can think of is the addition of an AIR pump somewhere in the early to mid 70's and change in alternator sometime in the late 70's or maybe early 80's. The A/C and P/S accessories remained the same from probably 74-91. So I can't think of any change of this type that would explain the hp/torque changes between, for example, 1985, 1986 and 1987. I would suggest vacuum routing, but to my knowledge no significant changes occurred between any of these years (and I know the vacuum systems on mid-80's rigs reasonably well). Certainly none that would account for 30 or so horsepower! Carburetors were the same type but I can't verify the jets were the same or that they were the same revision of the 2150. Exhaust sizes were the same between these three mysterious years and air cleaner housings were the same. Ignition systems improved, if anything, and I doubt advance curves changed, but I can't verify that either. One might suggest timing was the cause, but if anything the mid-80's rigs call for more advance than those of the higher-rated late 70's rigs. I've heard it said before that the cams never changed, but I haven't seen any good explanation of what else changed to account for such a wide variance of ratings between 80 and 91 and especially 85-87. Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:34:38 -0500 From: Cyber Phoenix Subject: Re: fsj: R.J.'s New engine.. That's great! congrats! are you going to make to Ouray 2002? R.J. Paul & Megan Kershner wrote: > That sounds great, R.J. > I'm supposed to get my '84 GW back tomorrow with the newly rebuilt > engine installed, complete with Edelbrock Performer setup (Carb, > Manifold, Cam, Lifters, Timing Set). > > John Meister is gonna give me a ride up to the shop tomorrow to pick it > up. Can't wait to give back the rice burner I borrowed from a friend... > > pk > > Cyber Phoenix wrote: > > > > Well.. I finally got a new engine , well.. Working on it as we read > > this, Me and a friend took it out in my tiny shed.. it is really heavy > > to move!.. had to use a chain and a come along to line up with the chain > > hoist! > > I expect delivery about thursday... ready to go, I still need to paint > > it though, ( AMC Colors ) What brand of spray paint should I use? > > It wound up costing 1,500.00.. But that is a long block with everything > > done and then some, over bored, and a new RV cam is replacing the stock > > , for better low end and mid range torque. This was a highly recommended > > local outfit, Of course I did my homework on it's rep, and was more then > > satisfied. They picked it up and delivered it for free at my house. > > After over 3 1/2 months of trying to find someone, on the net, it turns > > out the best deal was local.. I also got a small Buzz box ( Welder ) Me > > and a friend are going to make a (trailer .. for my new lawn business), > > new bumpers, bars.. ect. Here it went from chilly and rainy to like > > sunny and 86 today.. never had a spring! > > > > Have a good one! > > > > R.J. > > > > 80 J-10 Honcho ( Southern Comfort...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:28:23 -0500 From: Ken Gaines Subject: fsj: Engine measurement correction OOPS^Å.when I stated the piston-to-bore clearance, I incorrectly gave the DIAMETRICAL clearance, not the RADIAL clearance. The correct number for this measurement is 0.0139^Ô. This number almost perfectly coincides with the spec given in the TSM (0.016^Ô preferred, 0.010^Ô-0.020^Ô acceptable range). It is beginning to look as though this engine didn^Òt die as terribly as I previously thought. Here are the measurements on the crankshaft journals for those that are interested. Main Journals Journal A B Nominal 1 2.7488 2.7523 2.7506 2 2.7504 2.7528 2.7516 3 2.7517 2.7515 2.7516 (Thrust bearing, endplay 0.007^Ô with feeler gauge) 4 2.7532 2.7510 2.7522 5 2.7506 2.7512 2.7509 Rod Journals Journal A B Nominal 1 2.0986 2.0988 2.0987 2 2.0988 2.1008 2.0998 3 2.0998 2.0984 2.0991 4 2.1028 2.1008 2.1018 I think these may be a little off. I am planning to have the machinists at work check them for me tomorrow. I^Òll let you know the results. Talk to you again soon. Ken ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1282 **************************