From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu May 3 10:36:58 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, May 2 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1304 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [fsj: Re: Klune V] fsj: RE: Ignition woes fsj: insane-o gears fsj: Klune V fsj: Re: Klune V fsj: Re: 87 grand Re: [fsj: Re: Klune V] Re: [fsj: Re: 87 grand] fsj: Chips- worth it? Re: fsj: Re: Klune V Re: [fsj: Re: Klune V] FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 May 2001 14:46:49 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: Klune V] "Ray Drouillard" wrote: > My point is that the hardware has to stand up to the torque that can be > transmitted to the ground. Unless you bolt the wheels down, you aren't > going to break anything no matter how big the engine if the drivetrain > will handle the amount of traction that you have. Yah, silly me. :) So a source of curiosity for me-- what breaks axles, etc, offroad?? I gather it is due to uncontrolled bouncing resulting from the vehicle not having enough traction to climb an obstacle slowly, shock loads transmitted thru the drivetrain or what? I wonder if axles break because of just the force of bouncing or does the bouncing intermittently increase the traction enuf for mutiplied torque to snap components? What causes yokes and tcases to grenade? It happens all the time apparently, at least to the baby jeeps... > Still, I want to get a pair of those deuce-and-a-half axles that I see > for sale in the 4x4 mags :) Is it bad to lust after dump truck rear ends? :D Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:19:15 -0500 From: Ken Gaines Subject: fsj: RE: Ignition woes Landon, First off...delete this as soon as you read it...or at least scan it with your virus scan software...it may be infected. Secondly. I have done this upgrade and it worked very well. There is one small point of interest that you may want to look at. When you install the TFI coil, the polarity of the leads must be reversed. The coil connector that you purchased should have had the correct polarity molded into the connector. This would explain the destruction of the coil that you had. If this is in fact your problem, there is a good chance IMO that your module has bitten the dust. I can't imagine that a Duraspark module would much like having its output voltage reversed in polarity. The other problem may lie in the fact that you left the ignition ON. This would feed a constant voltage to your coil through the module leading to eventual overheating of both the coil and the module. You are correct in checking the resistance (400 to 800 ohms) at the pickup coil and the power to the ignition module. Continuity could be a problem also. Remember that the Duraspark module has a wire that is calibrated to 1.35 ohms (I can't remember if it is IN or OUT). If this wire isn't correct, it will cause ALL kinds of hell with your ignition...including a "no spark" condition. Believe me. I have had this happen to me with an AMC 304 and I ended up blowing the valve covers off of the heads when the fuel that built up in the crankcase finally ignited. If it won't go "self-sustaining" when you let off the ignition switch, DO NOT continue cranking the engine unless you want to see what a crankcase explosion will do. Good luck. Ken - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of Landon Tesar Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 2:47 PM To: fsj-at-digest.net Subject: fsj: Ignition woes Hi, I left my ignition on in the '89 GW. I've done the upgrade to TFI coil, with a relay that applies 12 volts. It toasted the coil. Bought a new coil. Ran fine for two days, now no spark. I replaced the ignition module. Still need to check: 12V to the ignition module, resistance at pickup coil, continuity in a few places. Any other pointers ? - - Landon '89 GW Austin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:28:34 EDT From: FourXDave-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: insane-o gears excellent point Mr Droulliard, i know the super-deluxe-moon-crawler gear stuff is cool and all, but... i drove over a LOT of terrible stuff (the steep uphill-into-a-sidehill covered with chunks of parking lot was my favorite for scaring passengers) in my scramble-wag.... it was (is?) a scrambler tub on a wagoneer frame converted to spring over with 3/4 ton dodge axles, 360/TH400/Q-trac and it crawled over lots of stuff in high range, with 36 inch tires and 3.54 gears... if i was in Moab, sure more gear would be needed.... and when i go, i will have more.. but in reality, we will all cover WAY more miles on concrete than we will on a real nasty trail.... <>< DAB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 16:30:02 -0500 From: Roy Kesmodel Subject: fsj: Klune V Ray, I'm not sure I agree with you entirely. You still have to contend with inertia and friction. I am speaking of the inertia and friction of the drive train components themselves. Put a big enough engine in and punch it and you will tear all kinds of things to pieces before the power even gets TO the ground. I refer to cases where ujoint yokes have broken from nothing more than the force of a "popped" clutch. The same yoke could hold if the clutch were let out a little more slowly, even if the tires still 'smoked'. Yeah, I realize that the breakage could have happened due to the instantaneous friction of the tire and road, but I still submit that you could tear things to pieces due to friction and inertia if you applied enough 'instantaneous' force to the system. Just having fun with theory :-) Roy '82 FSJ Cherokee Laredo 'Tank' '79' Olds Toronado 'Old Whitey' '83' Buick Regal Estate Wagon 'Brick' {recently deceased} > -----Original Message----- > Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:02:53 -0400 > From: "Ray Drouillard" > Subject: fsj: Re: > > My point is that the hardware has to stand up to the torque that can be > transmitted to the ground. Unless you bolt the wheels down, you aren't > going to break anything no matter how big the engine if the drivetrain > will > handle the amount of traction that you have. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:54:26 -0400 From: "Ray (lists)" Subject: fsj: Re: Klune V I tend to agree with you. I neglected to mention inertia, getting wedged, and all that stuff because the post was getting long enough as it was. My main point is that the actual engine torque is only a small piece of the puzzle. Shoot, you can break things with the engine turned off if you hit things just right (wrong). My solution (based on engineering, not experience) would be to beef up the axles and use the lowest axle gearing available. With low axle gearing, the rest of the drive train is under less stress. In fact, geared hubs (like the Hummer) would be really cool. You would have to make up for it with a good overdrive unit way upstream, but all of the pieces in between would be running with less stress (but faster). Ray Drouillard - ----- Original Message ----- From: Roy Kesmodel To: Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:30 PM Subject: fsj: Klune V > Ray, > > I'm not sure I agree with you entirely. You still have to contend with > inertia and friction. I am speaking of the inertia and friction of the > drive train components themselves. Put a big enough engine in and punch it > and you will tear all kinds of things to pieces before the power even gets > TO the ground. I refer to cases where ujoint yokes have broken from nothing > more than the force of a "popped" clutch. The same yoke could hold if the > clutch were let out a little more slowly, even if the tires still 'smoked'. > Yeah, I realize that the breakage could have happened due to the > instantaneous friction of the tire and road, but I still submit that you > could tear things to pieces due to friction and inertia if you applied > enough 'instantaneous' force to the system. > > Just having fun with theory :-) > > Roy > '82 FSJ Cherokee Laredo 'Tank' > '79' Olds Toronado 'Old Whitey' > '83' Buick Regal Estate Wagon 'Brick' {recently deceased} > > > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:02:53 -0400 > > From: "Ray Drouillard" > > Subject: fsj: Re: > > > > > My point is that the hardware has to stand up to the torque that can be > > transmitted to the ground. Unless you bolt the wheels down, you aren't > > going to break anything no matter how big the engine if the drivetrain > > will > > handle the amount of traction that you have. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:52:07 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: 87 grand On Wed, 2 May 2001, Worley, Tom wrote: >-->I own an 87 grand wagoneer, the body is in good condition but the motor and >-->trans need work. >-->The truck has 135,000 miles on it, and I would like to have it overhauled >-->for my 17 year old son. >--> >-->As I understand it, the AMC motors (360) and transmissions that came stock >-->in this vehicle are plagued with problems. Do you know of any resources >-->(preferably local, New Jersey) who can undertake a project like this and not >-->spend their time advising me to buy my son a blazer? well, I wouldn't say they're plauged with problems. :) They have a few issues... That said just about any driveline combo you can dream up can be made to work, all depending on your skills and budget. I've installed a 3.8L Buick V6 and TH350 mated to a Dana 20 in my '67 Wagoneer. I'm currently pulling my 258/T5 engine/trans out of my '83 J10 and installing a '96 xj 4.0L HO/ Aisin Warner AT. :) I wouldn't recommend anyone getting a blazer... I would recommend pulling a Fuel Injected blazer motor/and at out and putting it in, or pulling a 6.2/6.5L Diesel and AT out and putting it in a GW... but not a Blazer... ;) john >--> >-->Thanks for your help >-->Tom Worley >-->tworley-at-gist.com >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux **** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://junkscience.com ** http://snopes.com ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA ...don't leave life without Jesus, please... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 2001 17:46:28 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: Klune V] The problem for me is that low diff gears don't fit in with my requirements. Rather than building a dedicated rock rig, my goal has been to build a comfortable, somewhat updated, daily commuter with the capability of tackling trails rated 4 out of 5 without breaking a sweat, preferably while carrying a lot of people & gear to a neat location. And without significant effort or 'adaptation' required by yours truly. :) I could run 4.56's but suddenly my daily commuter is spinning near redline at hwy speeds. An OD tranny is the 'best' solution with low diff gears, but I really don't want to go to all the trouble and expense of adapting one. I prefer bolt-in so the 727 stays. :) If the crawler box doesn't jeopardize the life expectancy of my drivetrain, it'd offer a best of all worlds solution which I like-- improved engine braking for AT, improved off-road climbing performance, 2lo, minimal adapters, relatively simply hookup, and no negative effect on hwy rpms, and nearly bolt-in installation (for me anyway). On the other hand, not building a dedicated rock rig, maybe $1800 is too much to pay for a crawler box that only gets me one additional low range gear... I've got other upgrades to finish first anyway so I have plenty of time to consider my options. :) Michael "Ray (lists)" wrote: > I tend to agree with you. I neglected to mention inertia, getting wedged, > and all that stuff because the post was getting long enough as it was. > > My main point is that the actual engine torque is only a small piece of the > puzzle. Shoot, you can break things with the engine turned off if you hit > things just right (wrong). > > My solution (based on engineering, not experience) would be to beef up the > axles and use the lowest axle gearing available. With low axle gearing, the > rest of the drive train is under less stress. In fact, geared hubs (like > the Hummer) would be really cool. You would have to make up for it with a > good overdrive unit way upstream, but all of the pieces in between would be > running with less stress (but faster). > > > Ray Drouillard > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Roy Kesmodel > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:30 PM > Subject: fsj: Klune V > > > > Ray, > > > > I'm not sure I agree with you entirely. You still have to contend with > > inertia and friction. I am speaking of the inertia and friction of the > > drive train components themselves. Put a big enough engine in and punch > it > > and you will tear all kinds of things to pieces before the power even gets > > TO the ground. I refer to cases where ujoint yokes have broken from > nothing > > more than the force of a "popped" clutch. The same yoke could hold if the > > clutch were let out a little more slowly, even if the tires still > 'smoked'. > > Yeah, I realize that the breakage could have happened due to the > > instantaneous friction of the tire and road, but I still submit that you > > could tear things to pieces due to friction and inertia if you applied > > enough 'instantaneous' force to the system. > > > > Just having fun with theory :-) > > > > Roy > > '82 FSJ Cherokee Laredo 'Tank' > > '79' Olds Toronado 'Old Whitey' > > '83' Buick Regal Estate Wagon 'Brick' {recently deceased} > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:02:53 -0400 > > > From: "Ray Drouillard" > > > Subject: fsj: Re: > > > > > > > > My point is that the hardware has to stand up to the torque that can be > > > transmitted to the ground. Unless you bolt the wheels down, you aren't > > > going to break anything no matter how big the engine if the drivetrain > > > will > > > handle the amount of traction that you have. - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 2001 17:54:21 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: 87 grand] It wouldn't hurt to have some willingness to do shadetree mechanic work if you own an FSJ otherwise your ownership may end in frustration. They demand attention or they get revenge. :) Some hold together real well, but I think those are the ones that were meticulously maintained, like my 85 GW with 140k miles still running strong. My 86 had a weak motor and tranny and I've been fighting that for years, now giving up and rebuilding something. Don't know of any FSJ mechanics in NJ, but one of the guys on my list may be able to help. Email me offline and I'll see what I can dig up for you. There are probably tranny shops happy to rebuild a 727 whether it came out of a Dodge or a Jeep. There are motor shops around that will do AMCs, some are good at it. Best to ask around the 4x4 shops for recommendations. You could ask speed shops but they'd be the most likely to ask why you aren't just using a Ch*vy 350. :) Michael john wrote: > On Wed, 2 May 2001, Worley, Tom wrote: > > >-->I own an 87 grand wagoneer, the body is in good condition but the motor and > >-->trans need work. > >-->The truck has 135,000 miles on it, and I would like to have it overhauled > >-->for my 17 year old son. > >--> > >-->As I understand it, the AMC motors (360) and transmissions that came stock > >-->in this vehicle are plagued with problems. Do you know of any resources > >-->(preferably local, New Jersey) who can undertake a project like this and not > >-->spend their time advising me to buy my son a blazer? > > well, I wouldn't say they're plauged with problems. :) They have a few issues... > > That said just about any driveline combo you can dream up can be made to work, > all depending on your skills and budget. > > I've installed a 3.8L Buick V6 and TH350 mated to a Dana 20 in my '67 Wagoneer. > I'm currently pulling my 258/T5 engine/trans out of my '83 J10 and installing > a '96 xj 4.0L HO/ Aisin Warner AT. :) > > I wouldn't recommend anyone getting a blazer... I would recommend pulling > a Fuel Injected blazer motor/and at out and putting it in, or pulling a > 6.2/6.5L Diesel and AT out and putting it in a GW... but not a Blazer... ;) > > john > > > >--> > >-->Thanks for your help > >-->Tom Worley > >-->tworley-at-gist.com > >--> > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux **** http://wagoneers.com ** > ** http://junkscience.com ** http://snopes.com ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA ...don't leave life without Jesus, please... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 21:38:24 -0400 From: John Roden Subject: fsj: Chips- worth it? I'd like to get some more oomph out of my late model cherokee 4.0-- do those ignition chips really help much? Are there drawbacks in terms of driveability? I am looking for a little more power for nomal driving on the highway. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:31:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Klune V A: What's this? Ray forgetting about the famous Jerrari? From: "Ray Drouillard" Remember that even if you put a bunch of gear boxes before it, the amount of torque it has to handle is limited by traction. If you put a Ferrari engine in your Jeep (can that be done?), ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10 4.6L, O/D auto on LPG, '86 Comanche with AMC 4 cyl, 5 speed http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:01:59 -0400 From: "Ray Drouillard" Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: Klune V] I'm actually planning on giving my GW an overdrive transmission for better highway RPMs. I'm looking at either buying John's world-class T-5 (once he pulls it and verifies that it's world-class), or perhaps an NV4500. The thing about an NV4500 is that it needs an adapter on both ends. I can't get around needing an adapter for the engine side of it unless I get another engine. OTOH, the Kluge (I mean Klune) box seems to come in lots of flavors to avoid the necessity of an adapter. If I can get one that'll fit between the NV4500 and the NP229, I can pay $1800.00 for an extra two tears, instead of maybe a $800.00 for something that doesn't really add anything to the vehicle. I'll have to ask them if they make an underdrive box that will act as an adapter. I also just discovered this site today: http://www.boyceequipment.com/ It sells drivetrain parts refurbished from military equipment, I have been looking at those Honeywell deuce-and-a-half axles for a while. With a 6.72:1 gearing ratio and driveshafts that attach above the center of the axles, they would be a very nice addition. Of course, the transmission that I am really lusting after is the Richmond Gear R.O.D six-speed. This beauty goes from 4.05:1 in first gear to something like 0.76:1 in sixth gear - all in nice small steps :) Adding that to my Jeep would boost my low end and give me better freeway gears. AA doesn't make an adapter for it, though :( I wonder if the Klune box would do the trick. Like a certain eunuch programmer we all know in Snohomish (or is it Freedom?) county, I have a lot more ideas than money right now. Ray Drouillard - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Shimniok" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: Klune V] > The problem for me is that low diff gears don't fit in with my requirements. > Rather than building a dedicated rock rig, my goal has been to build a > comfortable, somewhat updated, daily commuter with the capability of tackling > trails rated 4 out of 5 without breaking a sweat, preferably while carrying a > lot of people & gear to a neat location. And without significant effort or > 'adaptation' required by yours truly. :) > > I could run 4.56's but suddenly my daily commuter is spinning near redline at > hwy speeds. An OD tranny is the 'best' solution with low diff gears, but I > really don't want to go to all the trouble and expense of adapting one. I > prefer bolt-in so the 727 stays. :) > > If the crawler box doesn't jeopardize the life expectancy of my drivetrain, > it'd offer a best of all worlds solution which I like-- improved engine > braking for AT, improved off-road climbing performance, 2lo, minimal > adapters, > relatively simply hookup, and no negative effect on hwy rpms, and nearly > bolt-in installation (for me anyway). > > On the other hand, not building a dedicated rock rig, maybe $1800 is too much > to pay for a crawler box that only gets me one additional low range gear... > I've got other upgrades to finish first anyway so I have plenty of time to > consider my options. :) > > Michael > > "Ray (lists)" wrote: > > I tend to agree with you. I neglected to mention inertia, getting wedged, > > and all that stuff because the post was getting long enough as it was. > > > > My main point is that the actual engine torque is only a small piece of the > > puzzle. Shoot, you can break things with the engine turned off if you hit > > things just right (wrong). > > > > My solution (based on engineering, not experience) would be to beef up the > > axles and use the lowest axle gearing available. With low axle gearing, > the > > rest of the drive train is under less stress. In fact, geared hubs (like > > the Hummer) would be really cool. You would have to make up for it with a > > good overdrive unit way upstream, but all of the pieces in between would be > > running with less stress (but faster). > > > > > > Ray Drouillard > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Roy Kesmodel > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:30 PM > > Subject: fsj: Klune V > > > > > > > Ray, > > > > > > I'm not sure I agree with you entirely. You still have to contend with > > > inertia and friction. I am speaking of the inertia and friction of the > > > drive train components themselves. Put a big enough engine in and punch > > it > > > and you will tear all kinds of things to pieces before the power even > gets > > > TO the ground. I refer to cases where ujoint yokes have broken from > > nothing > > > more than the force of a "popped" clutch. The same yoke could hold if > the > > > clutch were let out a little more slowly, even if the tires still > > 'smoked'. > > > Yeah, I realize that the breakage could have happened due to the > > > instantaneous friction of the tire and road, but I still submit that you > > > could tear things to pieces due to friction and inertia if you applied > > > enough 'instantaneous' force to the system. > > > > > > Just having fun with theory :-) > > > > > > Roy > > > '82 FSJ Cherokee Laredo 'Tank' > > > '79' Olds Toronado 'Old Whitey' > > > '83' Buick Regal Estate Wagon 'Brick' {recently deceased} > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:02:53 -0400 > > > > From: "Ray Drouillard" > > > > Subject: fsj: Re: > > > > > > > > > > > My point is that the hardware has to stand up to the torque that can be > > > > transmitted to the ground. Unless you bolt the wheels down, you aren't > > > > going to break anything no matter how big the engine if the drivetrain > > > > will > > > > handle the amount of traction that you have. > > > --- > Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net > "For every complex problem, there is a solution that > is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1304 **************************