From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jun 13 10:07:04 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, June 13 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1345 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Seat swap? Re: fsj: Coopers evil ? fsj: RE: POLAR remote found! Re: fsj: Re:frames re:fsj: cooper tires re: fsj: Mood Jeep? re: fsj: suspension question fsj: quick note on the request... Re: fsj: Non-FSJ - Cable Modem Re: fsj: Mood Jeep? Re: fsj: suspension question fsj: xfr case questions and ideas... FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:33:10 -0700 From: Clark Novak Subject: fsj: Seat swap? Anyone ever swapped buckets from an XJ into an SJ? I found a wrecked XJ Wagoneer with the leather interior, and the seats are in great shape. Will they bold in to our SJ floorpans, or will I have to fab some brackets? Clark Novak 87 GW/San Diego ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:56:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Coopers evil ? A: Don't know what they're like now, but back in -at-Jan 20th '79, they got me into (and out of) a bit of a pickle. It was the saturday close to my now ex-wife's birthday, and she wanted to go for a picnic where there was snow, as we didn't get any amount all winter (in Surrey, BC) at the time and she missed it (She's from Toronto originally). I had a home-lifted '65 Pontiac Strato Chief 4 dr (I was searching for the right axle to make it into a full 4x4 because Canadian models were full frame) with 250 6 cyl (I had made an adapter plate to put a Carter BBD on it) with the old slip and slide Powerglide. We (my 5 month pregnant wife and younger brother) went up Sylvester road in Mission, BC to Davies lake park, and we were soon in snow to the tops of our fenders, with a slight path between the embankments. We made it all the way in to the lake (it was clear and sunny out) and when we went to leave, we were nearly the last ones there. A Chev 4x4 saw us having trouble getting up the steep hill out (it had cooled off, and the melted snow was turning to ice), and waited at the top for us. I finally turned around and took it backwards with better grip due to the 4 arm supension lifting the car and putting more weight on the traction tires. It was like having front wheel drive. As soon as he saw us round the last corner near the top, he took off (no idea what kind of tires he had, but he had trouble getting up the hill too) leaving 4 nice deep holes where he had been sitting. Thump! Thump! and we were 4 wheels in the air! ^#&#*%#%(*( We tried to dig our way out, but the temps dropped fast, and we didn't have enough warm clothing to handle sub-zero for long, even with the digging warming us up. We used the tin snips in my tool box (that I had used the day before to scallop the rear wheel wells to clear the 30x15 Cooper Discoverer tires I had put on) and made shovels out of pieces of the rusty rear 1/4 panels I was going to change anyway. We didn't dig enough ice away to get out, but I had a full tank of gas, and 2 Gerry cans full in the trunk. We first cleared away the exhaust so it could flow away from the car and not asphixiate us inside when we tried to keep warm (that heater was the best I ever had! I actually had to turn it down to keep from getting too hot!). And that is how we spent the night. Some clouds were all around our clear area, but below it had started snowing again. I had told our parents where we were going, and my oldest was being baby sat by my in-laws. They tried to get in where we were (35 or so 4x4s tried, but couldn't get up the hill from town) and finally they got ahold of a Park Ranger with a military Dodge Power Wagon that made it in just after sunrise. It was the most spectacular sunrise I have EVER seen in my life so far! On the top of the hill above the lake with the snow covered mountains ringing it like a volcanic crater. I'll skip the part where my dad freaked out on us. (I had tried all night to reach someone by CB radio, but couldn't punch the skip, even with my 15 watt boots on!) We jumped in the Ranger's 6x6 truck, and hightailed it down the mountain (He couldn't even budge my Poncho with his winch! He was being pulled towards the edge, so he gave up) The next weekend, I talked one of the guys from work into driving up there with his Chev Blazer 4x4. We rolled in w/o a single problem, and as I got out of the truck, I noted he had Coopers as well (33/12/15) We hooked back to a tree, and then to the Pontiac (a couple other 4x4'ers went around the car before and someone left a beer can on my antenna, but no damage. That wouldn't happen nowadays! I'd probably come back to a burnt hulk!) and winched it back 20 feet. I fired the Poncho up, and it came out on it's own power after that. MFSJC: If I had been able to afford a FSJ back then, you bet I would have! (Glad I can afford one now!) Good thing I always packed a getcha back box, even back then, and except for extra clothing and lack of shovel, I was pretty much prepared. (I think my winter gear was at work, and the shovel was broken cleaning out the barn) We had plenty of food, music, a camp stove and we made tea from the snow with a cig lighter plug in coffee pot. I had enough tools to fix most things, and even if we wore the battery down, I had a hand crank on my motor I installed. (Couldn't do that with a 360!) From: "Landon Tesar" John, this is from your smoke show post in digest #1339 ? 2) I still hate Cooper tires, believe them to be about the worst tires out there I think my Cooper HTs are fine, though I haven't stressed them tremendously, what has formed your opinion ? - - - Landon ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:29:32 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: RE: POLAR remote found! At 10:03 PM 6/12/01 -0400, Darren K. Page wrote: >BTW Polar car starters are usually fairly heavily marketed here on >the radio in the fall. It is usually the tint & speed type shops that >are doing it. I did a quick search on Google, but I could only turn up >this: >http://www.b-b-electronics.com/polar_home.html >I never really paid attention to the ads, but when you posted about the >Polar starter, I thought well that sounds right...' >Darren this looks like it! Will test a couple of the "features" to confirm. thanx! http://www.b-b-electronics.com/ps5505.html john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:37:11 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re:frames At 07:34 PM 6/12/01 -0400, HH4PIZZA-at-aol.com wrote: >I will try this once more. I sent you another email after the first one >did not work. your message isn't formatted properly, no line returns or carriage returns, one big long nasty line. :) Although it is readable... ;) not sure what tool you are using, this is all I can see: X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) As far as swaps... I'm in the middle of trying to have a '96 XJ 4.0L HO engine mated to a '96 AW (aisin warner 30-40LE 23 spline output shaft) put into my '83 J10 Stepside... we were going to use the NP219, however we hit a little snag... seems they bolt up ok, but the end of the tranny and the xfr case don't mate up quite right... I've located a 23 spline NP231 down in Portland, OR and will run down there Friday or Saturday to buy it and bring it up to my friends house in Olympia and see if that solves the problem... only problem is then I'll have to deal with a Slip Yoke... yech... :( Anyway, going to pass your notes along to the fsj and xj list (using BCC) since you have a lot of useful and interesting data that could be used in either an XJ or an FSJ. :) thanx, john > so here we go. I have been happy with the LT1 for the most part, my main > problem with it is that the distrubutor is on the front of the engine. > This poses a problem for water crossings, I have a snorkel and use it > occassionally. The distributor is a pain to get to and is expensive. > Overall it is an excellent engine with a perfect torque curve. But, my > main reason for not going with an LS1 is that they were just becoming > available. It addresses the problems of the distributor with a direct > fire ignition. I don't think this engine would be much harder to swap > than an LT1. Hopefully I will be going to an LS1 eventually. I found that > GM offers a crate motor LS1 with wiring and computer for about 5500. This > is a bit pricey, but you are getting a new motor with a factory warranty > and all of 320 horsepower. I still will probably end up going the salvage > yard route. As for emissions, my swap should not have a problem, only > thing I am not running is the smog pump, We don't have inspections here > so I did not worry about it. >2. As for the unibody, I have not had any trouble, but some wil arue about >the strength. But look at camaro's and the like, they are unibodies. Also >if it ever does become a problem you can get another cherokee body and >frame for a bout as much as it would cost for a frame for another car. >Think of it as getting a frame, it just has a body attatched to it. ( I'll >credit Dave nay for that perspective). > >3. As for cooling I used to run a superior radiator, it was decent, it >lasted over two years. Recently it started leaking so I went with A >griffin radiator. The griffin is nice, it looks like better quality, but >they did not address the details like superior. Griffin did not put a >radiator cap fitting, the mounts were not the right height, and the tranny >cooler lines were the wrong size. But, the radiator looked nicer than the >superior. The superior one cost less, about 150 less. The grifin cost >about 550. Not bad for a custom radiator. Griffin fixed the rad. cap >problem for free. I had to fix the other stuff, I needed it and did not >have time to wait on them. The superior radiator just fit perfectly. I >would ask around and see what others think. Aluminum is nice, but nobody >will fix leaks, so I winder if brass would not be better. Aluminum cools >better, but if it does not last then what is the point. The griffin has >held up well so far, so we'll see. As for fans, I run the stock AuX fan in >the stock location ( it is up graded to the 96 model). I used to run a >permacool fan (12") next to it, but found I did not need it with the >griffin radiator. I just got a temp swich from summit racing and threaded >it into an open plug. > >4. I was running the 700r4 that I got with the engine, but it just gave up >the ghost on me. I got off on a cheap rebuild, it lasted 65,000 miles with >my foot behind the pedal. So I just ordered a new one from JET, it has the >AA shaft alreay installed, and it is built to my specs. Not a bad deal, >but it is not here yet, Hopefully this week, when I get it in I will let >you know the results. If you decide to stick with a stock 700 then I would >rebuild it and throw a mild shift kit in it. This is an excellent tranny, >you get a 3.06 first gear and an overdrive. My original one is from a 1993 >camaro, so it is not one of the electronic 4l60's. Part of the reason for >my swap was to get rid of the electronic AW-4. But the 4l60 is still an >excellent tranny. > >5. As for headers, I tried to get some, A lot of the blockhuggers don't >fit. JBA said they would make a custom set, but would need my jeep for 2 >weeks and 1500 dollars. In the end the stock exhaust manifolds worked out >well, and from what I have heard they are not to restrictive. This is all >entirely up to you. I have been looking a t SLP headers, they look like >they might work, but I worry that is I go with an LS1 that will be a >waste. Most of the blockhuggers don't get any closer than the stock >manifolds. The main thing is finding a shop to run some exhaust for you. A >friend of mine that I wheel with helped with this. > >6. I used AA's mounts, but they sat the engine too low, so I welded a tab >to the top of them that was about an inch higher.This worked well, you >could build your own, it just depends if you want something to start with. >If so these are a good starting point. I tried some others, for s-10's and >such, but the AA mounts were the closest to working. > >7. I used the stock crossmember, I cut out the top of it so that the mount >would sit down in it. Mainly because the AA t case adapter foot is too >long. You could machine it down, but I don't know if it is worth it. I >used a mount from AA, it is from a wrangler I think. It is two rubber >doughnuts, it sits down in the crossmember which I reinforced with 1/4 >plate. I plan on going to a early model 700r-4 mount when I get the new >tranny. It is kinda complicated, I'll try to make some pics, you could >check photopoint, they should still be there. > >8. For the wiring I used one of the painless harnesses, I combined some of >the wiring from the stock harness. Painless has addressed some of these >problems with their new harnesses, things like the vats system. I would >also check into harnesses from Howell, I know they can build custom stuff >fro your application, I am not sure on price though. > >9. First I would get the factory service manual for the car that the >engine came from, they usually are from HELM. Also Get CHevrolet TpI and >TBI engine swapping by JTR, it is available from summit racing, or at >www.jagsthatrun.com Also don't forget that driveshafts will need to be >changed, My front had to be shortened and I put a SYE on. It is the >details that will kill you. whew, >Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions, >Dustin Crawley - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:48:36 -0700 From: john Subject: re:fsj: cooper tires >Subject: fsj: Coopers evil ? >John, >this is from your smoke show post in digest #1339 ? > >2) I still hate Cooper tires, believe them to be about the worst tires >out there > >I think my Cooper HTs are fine, though I haven't stressed them >tremendously, what has formed your opinion ? > - Landon well, I bought a 1981 Mercedes 300D. It had a new set of Coopers. I had two broken tires in the front within a few weeks. They slid easily on rainy roads and rode terrible. I replaced them with Michelins and had no troubles at all, not even in rain or snow... then I bought the '87 Cherokee, it too came with Coopers, maybe not new, but nonetheless broken belts, extremely poor traction and terrible ride/handling... so, based on those experiences and a vague recollection of having them before, possibly on one of the other 74 or so vehicles I've owned, they are about the worst tires I've encountered... well, except maybe for Les Schwab Wild Country tires. :) I'm fussy about tires. They need to be quiet, work well on wet road and corner well... BFG's AT's in their native state terrify me on wet road, but siped they're acceptable. :) I've yet to own a Michelin tire that I haven't liked. I got hooked on them in Europe on my BMW's and such... I've liked good years, but they don't last very long... I've liked all my BFG's that I've had... and I found out that Michelin owns BFG now... :) my GC had Yokohoma Geolanders, we'll see how they do. I had a set of Yokohoma Super Digger IV's on my '83 GMC Jimmy with the 6.2L, liked 'em, but then they came out with the V's and they were totally different... the GSA Wranglers are one of the noisest tires I ever tried... :) There might be a good variant of Cooper's out there, but I haven't driven on 'em yet. :) There are lots of tires to be tried... so many tires, so little time to smoke 'em... ;) BTW, as a result of the smoke show I ended up glazing my rear brakes... I have another set of shoes for it, but I'm hoping that they settle in ok so I don't have to work on it any more... ;) I am impressed with the XJ's trac lok, it's better than the one I had in my '88. :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:50:25 -0700 From: john Subject: re: fsj: Mood Jeep? >From: UrbFarmer-at-aol.com >Subject: fsj: Mood Jeep? > >Had a reception for my daughter's HS graduation last night and after good >food and wine, an idea came up. I was asked why we don't have "Mood Jeeps". >Now this idea was described as some kind of paint that would be wired into >the driver's mood, kinda like a mood ring. > >I figured this would be boring as around here in Chicago, all the cars would >be red going to and coming from work.........of course the Rez runner would >probably be multi-color rainbow neon waves of color due to my boundless >happiness, even though I'm not on a trail! >;) >- --Vince >'81 Wagoneer looking at color samples at the local Schucks I noted they have some new paint out that changes color in different light... made me think of the mood rings of yesteryear... so yes Vince, there is a paint for the Rez runner... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:54:43 -0700 From: john Subject: re: fsj: suspension question >From: wp3 >subject: fsj: suspension question > >is there anyway that I can soften up the ride on my J-10 without replacing >the >springs? also looking for a AMC model 20 carrier that will hold 3.73 gear >ratio. if anyone has one for sale please let me know. >Thanks, >Will >80 J-10 Will, I went down this road with SuperDawg. 1) get passenger series tires, makes a world of difference. 2) get decent shocks. I'm still dialing mine in, I have Rancho 9000s but they are for a full 2" lift and I didn't quite get the front there so they bottom out, going to use the Old Man Emu shocks I retrieved from the little wagoneer. 3) you could pull one of your springs out to soften the springs, or better yet, keep the main spring on the J10 and replace the shorter springs with springs from a Wagoneer. (see the poor man's lift on http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech suspension? 4) don' t use an add-a-leaf... it'll make it stiffer... ttyl, john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:24:49 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: quick note on the request... the reason for the mac is the application QuarkXpress, it only runs on mac and was specifically mentioned by the printer I will probably use for the book on Full Size Jeeps, then Unix... macs frustrate me, have some experience with them... several of my CAD users have them... just need a little guidance on models and such... getting some great advice off line... (noticed a few folks posted to the list so I felt it useful to explain a bit more... :) The PowerPc is a nice chipset, will run Linux... so dual boot or OS10 sounds appealing to me... so, off the list with further discussion... ;) thanx, john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:34:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Non-FSJ - Cable Modem A: I have been looking into an upgrade myself (getting a real puter) for the last 4 years, but I can't believe I live in downtown Seattle, and I can't get DSL, ADSL, cable modem or anything faster than a 56K dial up (which with several miles of wiring to the nearest station, but less than 1/2 a mile as the crow flies ends up being between 14.4K and 28.8K most of the time) but we finally got broadband service available, and as soon as my contract with dishnet is done with, I'm either going with computer link up, or the new X-box (AFTER I try it from home first!) From: UrbFarmer-at-aol.com Hi everyone. This is non-FSJ but I need some advice and it always sounds like we have a few systems engineers out there on the list. I'm about to switch from AOL (haven't been happy for years, waiting for faster service in area) to a cable modem connection through AT&T (should scream with speed). (snip) a system engineer I'm not and I'd just as soon keep my hard drive the way it is. ;) - - --Vince '81 Wagoneer A: Just like I know cars and how to fix them, but I'm lost in computers still (I'm planning on getting some basic training soon for Linux so I can rewrite our stupid catalog program at work to include stuff not already in there, like store to store personal notes) ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:37:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Mood Jeep? A: We recently got in a rainbow paint kit. It comes with primer, paint and clear coat. Probably would take 5 kits to paint a FSJ right though! From: UrbFarmer-at-aol.com Had a reception for my daughter's HS graduation last night and after good food and wine, an idea came up. I was asked why we don't have "Mood Jeeps". Now this idea was described as some kind of paint that would be wired into the driver's mood, kinda like a mood ring. I figured this would be boring as around here in Chicago, all the cars would be red going to and coming from work.........of course the Rez runner would probably be multi-color rainbow neon waves of color due to my boundless happiness, even though I'm not on a trail! ;) - - --Vince '81 Wagoneer ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:39:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: suspension question A: Good shocks from Edelbrock or Rancho 9000s (I picked up a good used set of Trailmasters for Blackie with only a couple thousand miles on them) From: wp3 is there anyway that I can soften up the ride on my J-10 without replacing the springs? also looking for a AMC model 20 carrier that will hold 3.73 gear ratio. if anyone has one for sale please let me know. Thanks, Will 80 J-10 ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:00:16 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: xfr case questions and ideas... THE OBJECTIVE: Install one each '96 xj 4.0L HO engine with mating Aisin Warner 4speed auto (30-80LE) to a "transfer case" to live in a 1983 Jeep J10. PROBLEM: the desired NP219 bolts up but doesn't mate properly to AW4 the bolt holes line up, but the adapter won't work. We are left with about 7/8" gap between the xfer case and adapter. (tail shaft part of tranny). RESOURCES: have: 1) NP208, 23 spline (living in J10 now mated to T-5) 2) NP219, 23 spine (just received via FedEx) - doesn't match up. :( 3) NP242, 21 spline (needs some work and 23 splines) almost have: 4) NP231, 23 spline (needs to be picked up in Portland) 5) a yet to be located NP242, 23 spline that will need a SYE. QUESTIONS: (respond to the list please, this will be good info!) 1) anyway of changing a 21 spline NP242 to a 23 spline? (is it affordable???) 2) Is there any way of making the NP219 mate up properly to the AW4? adapters? 3) Is there any way of taking the NP231 23 spline input gear and put it in the NP242 (the ideal xfr case)? ( I think I've asked this before and found out that the gear on the 231 is thinner than the 242 and the cases are totally different...) 4) are there SYE for NP242's? who sells them? where? 5) would an earlier AW4 with a 21 spline output shaft work with the '96 4.0L HO? The CPS changed with the H0... IF the NP231 bolts up the AW4, which I suspect it will, that leaves the problem of getting a SYE installed... and also the logistics of getting down to Portland to retrieve it... (not a big deal, a chance to road test the wife's new WJ. ;) You know what? I think the answer is simple, I'll just buy an NP242 that has the 23 spline input shaft and the SYE kit. I can't really afford it, but I can't afford not to do this right the first time. I'm going into FSJ withdrawal.. Anyone interested in buying any of the other xfr cases I listed? (except for the NP208, it's going into Rambo, the '67 Panel curtis is getting... ;) I'll check on the parts tomorrow... I may be running up to Canada to get it if they have one. I'll be heading north or south or both on Friday or Saturday... Tell me where to go... ;) (be nice). Shoot, which way to go first? I have a bunch of stuff to bring down to Olympia... but Canada beckons with a weak dollar and good Jeep parts... ;) IF there is anyway of making the NP219 work with the '96 AW4 please let me know ASAP, even if it means buying an adapter, because if you figure the cost of a SYE (slip yoke eliminator) for the NP242 it'll work out about the same. A Quadratrac in a J10 will really enhance it's driveability... however the NP242 has a lot of options and is even more desireable in reality... it has 2wd, 4wd part time, 4wd full time and 4wd low... Man, I wish I would have gotten my '88 xj... it had a good trans and xfr case, not sure if the CPS from the '96 would fit in the older tranny though, they made them larger later on... SO, if there is no way of making the NP219 work, it looks like the NP242 will be the way to go if I can find one... Remember kiddies, this is why swapping stuff around in your Jeep can get so complicated... ;) There is almost always an "I gotcha" somewhere in the mix. :) XJ's and SJ's don't have much in common... some of the only parts I found that work in both are the U-joints for the driveshafts... seriously. Oh, and one other thing, no, I do not want to use my T-5 and NP208 by running a CPS on the harmonic balancer, and I definitely do not want to run a torqueflite trans... thanx for thinking of it though... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1345 **************************