From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Jul 6 14:54:11 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, July 6 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1367 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: 1967 Jeep Wagoneer fsj: stereo suggestions? fsj: attachments on the lists... Re: fsj: transfer case question, and the news... Re: fsj: Re: 1987 jeep grand wagoneer fsj: Re: 1967 Jeep Wagoneer fsj: More transfer case talk Re: fsj: stereo suggestions? Re: [fsj: Re: 1987 jeep grand wagoneer] FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:19:15 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: 1967 Jeep Wagoneer At 08:12 AM 7/6/01 -0400, Laurie Dustin wrote: >I am looking for a starter for my 1967 Jeep Wagoneer. It has an American >Motors 327 Vigalante engine and is 4 wheel drive. > >Do you know where I can get one? About how much do they run? > >Thanks...Greg Dustin I'm pretty sure any parts store should have one. I don't recall having problem ever finding one. If you do, you can have your old one rebuilt at almost any electrical shop that does alternators. I'd bet you could walk into a Napa and walk out with a new one. If not you might have to wait a day or two. :) I'd avoid the franchise chain places that sell "lifetime" units that are lucky to last a year. I made the mistake of putting an alternator in my daughters car from one of these places and even got a 3 year warranty... it died in a year... but the warranty didn't restart with the replacement, only 2 years left... what a farce. I can't tell you how many times I've swapped out starters and alternators I got at these kinds of places... they're junk. Go to an old dude that rebuilds alternators and starters in the back room of some place and you'll have something that will last. Or go to a NAPA, or even the dealer. I'm not going to name the franchise parts stores because some folks I know work in these places and others will swear by them... You can pay a lot for parts and get quality and you can also pay a lot for parts... shop wise. Look at the quality of the parts handed to you... does it look like someone sprayed paint right over the top of a fly? Does the items turn without grinding? Does it have the same types of fittings or connectors??? Do NOT give them your core until you are 100% sure it works and has worked for a couple days... If you turn in your core right away you WILL regret it... IT's almost worth the core charge to save your old starter and have it rebuilt as a spare... NAPA seems to have good stuff... for now... It's tough... anyway, stepping off the soap box, you shouldn't have trouble finding a starter... just don't let some halfwatt tell you it's a 327 Chevy... If they call it a Nash, or a Rambler or a Kaiser 327 they're on the correct planet. :) (and don't even think about using a franchised repair facility or a dealer install it... buying parts from the dealer is one thing, having them work on your non-warrantied vehicle is quite another... ;) best wishes, john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:43:04 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: stereo suggestions? I really like the stereo in my '99 WJ, it has both the cassette and CD! it also has most of the controls on the back of the steering wheel as well! So, what kind of stereos are out there that I can get for my J10 (or any other rig) that has both the cassette and CD and good quality without costing more than a used engine? And that would have some sort of remote control that mounts to the wheel... hmmm... maybe I can find one from a wrecked GC... ;) be sure to cc me as I'm in digest mode. thanx, john-at-wagoneers.com - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:30:12 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: attachments on the lists... >Subject: Re: fsj: New Cherokee photos showing lift results >A: It is on this list (because many of the computer owners on this list >have dinosaur units that can't translate pics from attachments to >something useful, and it takes up mucho room) If you need to post them, the problem on a list with attachments is the volume of mail transmitted and the issues with bounced mail... it's a big load on a server. it has nothing to do with the computers on the receiving end, it's simply a matter of traffic. Any computer that has graphics capability will display pictures. That's not the reason. And yes james, even my UNIX systems will view pictures. Most of the time I'm connected via a non-graphics telnet session. We set up the lists for the FSJ list from the start without attachments. I can't believe that some of these folks permit attachments... especially with the problems of viruses and such... so we don't permit attachments on this list, or any list I've started, because of some simple math... :) it works quite well this way too. Imagine 500 of your closest Jeep buddies all downloading that latest 256K image or your left rear muddy wheel... If you want to share a picture, put it on a web page and pass the URL, or post that you have such and such a picture and have people email you if they want to see it... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:49:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: transfer case question, and the news... A: For the luvva Jeep DON'T put Dura Goop in your nearly new engine! I have ruined 3 motors with that crud personally and witnessed a fleet of Toyota diesels destroyed by that crap! Sure it lowers the temp of your motor, but around here where there is emission testing, I have seen the results for myself. My wife's '85 Toyota Tercel, which ran perfectly and passed the emission test with flying colors a month prior, failed the CO at idle (from running too cold, even with a highway run and 195 thermostat in it. Fuel economy dropped like a rock from 35 to 20 mpg. No other changes other than Dura Lump put in) until I disconnected the cooing fan and put a sheet of cardboard in front of the rad and ran it till it was in the red zone, and it barely passed) A month later it started burning oil, even though compression was 180 across the board. I sold it rather than rebuild it, because it requires boring oversize to get rid of the crap or the rings won't seat! My '72 Ford pickup with 390 ran well before getting Duralube (It got it the same time as the Tercel or I would have known better) and ran like crap after, dropping from 17 to 8 mpg and it failed the E test, even after rebuilding the carb (speaking of carbs, I rebuilt my friend's '76 Wag 360 2 bbl Motorcraft recently, and used a Borg Warner $16 kit (#10035D) which had all the basic gaskets and the power valve while different works well. They get 15 mpg with it {I got 14 mpg highway before the powervalve went, and it dropped to 8 mpg}, and it passed Oregon DEQ E-test. I'm not sure what is in the $85 kit that is specific for AMC 360 that makes it so expensive, but this one seems to work fine!) My ex-boss in Canada had a fleet of Toyota diesel delivery trucks he tried Duralube in 1/2 them. At first it acted as claimed for a couple months, so he put it in the rest. With a month, the first batch started burning oil and needed ether to start cold! Then the second batch had the same trouble. We took the motors apart, and could not find any reason for it, and reassembled 3 (which never seated the rings) before the machine shop told us we were wasting our time. They refused to rebuild Duralube treated motors for customers anymore because of comebacks (95%) unless they were bored oversized and hot tanked (tanking alone doesn't even clean that crap off! The cylinder hone leaves no marks either) Go with the synthetic oil (I only add Bi-tron when a motor is near the end of it's useful life to get a little more out of it. I definitely wouldn't put it in a motor with less than 5000 miles on it! I did treat my wife's '99 Ranger 3.0L with it at 10,000 miles and got 2 mpg better average, which is 10% for that one!) From: "R.J. Baynum" Thanks John! I got the oil changed today after it's break in period, , a little late, around 600 miles though.. ( at Express oil change.. cause I don't have time , with work right now.. using the truck as a everyday work, (landscaping, grass maint. ) By the way.. I left a flyer with a guy who had a 70 Blue J-10 Honcho, (bad oxidized paint.. but the decal is different of course, He probably thought I was a nut case... I did not have enough money at the time for synthetic oil, and they did not have enough syn/dino blend.. ( which is better? ) Also it's not too late to put any Dura-lube or anything like that in it yet is it? I would love to hear your thoughts as well as the others on the lists ( I'll forward to.. ) Thanks! R.J. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:05:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 1987 jeep grand wagoneer At 08:56 PM 7/5/01 -0500, Jamie McDaniel wrote: >>i have a 1987 jgw with 145000 miles motor rebuilted at 80000 by prevous owner rear end died that is why it was sold to a car lot . my questions are they replaced the rear end with a amc 20 (i don't know what the original was From: john >the amc 20 was used a lot... my '83 J10 has one, in fact almost all of my '80's vintage fsj's have had 'em... they're fine. never had trouble with one... well, only one... but it was a parts rig. :) A: Yeah, and I ended up with it! (The guy is scared that the weld won't hold the oil in, so he hasn't come by about it) >I"m not sure what year the d44 became the std in the GW, '87 may have been it... A: It depended on when the ran out of them -at-'87. '84 and '85 were getting D44 with tow package I recall (but I could be wrong. My '84 J10 is M20, and so was Elmo ('83 Cherokee) and even though Elmo ran from Smokey point to Canada with zero oil inside, it worked fine! (Still does, but the airport is complaining about the whining noise!) Jamie: >>question 1) it doses not have a place for the track bar (the original is tied up under the jeep). John: >track bars, aka panhard bars, on a leaf spring vehicle still perplex me. I've had friends explain why it's a good idea, but it still perplexes me. On my XJ's with coil springs up front they make perfect sense... but do have the interesting phenomena of creating the "wobble o' death", or the "death wobble"... when they get loose the front end tries to go both ways at the same time... first time it happened i was doing 65mph up I-5... I could have sworn I lost the steering arm or a tie rod... I was rather frightened by it. :) A: The '88 Cherokee I had last summer did that, and tightening the bar stopped the wobble. Track bars on leaf springs only stop side to side sway when pulling a load around corners AFAICT. >Anyway, the only thing I've seen the track bars do on GW's is limit articulation and clunk. They're supposed to keep the axles lined up with the frame and do some other things I forgot that help handling... and possibly ride... only one person has ever explained why they're good... so life on your '87 w/o them should be fine. don't lose any sleep over it... in fact, if the bushings are good on the one you have you can remove it and sell it on ebay... ;) A: I agree! The only thing I've seen them do for real is seperate the axle tube from the housing on M20s! >>I have a new process 229 tfc according the the service manual i should have a select trac dana 44 front end i have a standard dana 44 with lock in lock out hubs . >if you have an NP229 you do NOT want lock out hubs, you will destroy the transfer case if 4wd is engaged and the hubs aren't... selectrac after '86 eliminated the vacuum motor on the front axle to engage the driveshaft to the front axle... I've busted the shift forks before, and when I needed 4wd more than ever too...   ditching the shift motor on the front axle is a good move... so make sure the hubs are locked in all the time or have them removed... don't worry about the shift motor thing... when you put the xfr case in 2wd it'll disengage inside the xfr case, driveshaft will still spin...   my '87 & 88 xj's do the same thing... not a problem. A: Crawl under and check to see if the transfercase was swapped over to a NP208 (it's stamped on a round tag on the back of the driver's side of the case) That's the only NP case I care for (due to the abusive nature of my 4x4 driving) and the only one they run with a std trans. Anyone had a NP229/228/219 stand up for long behind a built 401/360? The NP208 will do it. I read the torque listings for this unit, but didn't copy down the website at the time (it was posted on the Stroker list) and GM used them behind big block motors too IIRC. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:58:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Re: 1967 Jeep Wagoneer    From: john At 08:12 AM 7/6/01 -0400, Laurie Dustin wrote: >>I am looking for a starter for my 1967 Jeep Wagoneer. It has an American Motors 327 Vigalante engine and is 4 wheel drive. Do you know where I can get one? About how much do they run? Thanks...Greg Dustin Jhn wrote: >I'm pretty sure any parts store should have one. I don't recall having problem ever finding one. If you do, you can have your old one rebuilt at almost any electrical shop that does alternators. I'd bet you could walk into a Napa and walk out with a new one. If not you might have to wait a day or two. :) I'd avoid the franchise chain places that sell "lifetime" units that are lucky to last a year. I made the mistake of putting an alternator in my daughters car from one of these places and even got a 3 year warranty... it died in a year... but the warranty didn't restart with the replacement, only 2 years left... what a farce. A: They did that so that people would stop coming in to replace them just before the warranty was up to get a "free" new one that would get replaced just before that one expired (same deal goes with batteries now. The warranty you get on first purchase is the life of the battery's warranty) >I can't tell you how many times I've swapped out starters and alternators I got at these kinds of places... they're junk.   Go to an old dude that rebuilds alternators and starters in the back room of some place and you'll have something that will last. Or go to a NAPA, or even the dealer. A: I agree! If I don't have time to build my own, I take it to Southend Autowrecking here in Seattle, and the guy does a great job on them! >I'm not going to name the franchise parts stores because some folks I know work in these places and others will swear by them... A: Doesn't matter to me (I work for one of them) but in all fairness, the top of the line rebuilds now come with a 24 month roadside assistance included. >You can pay a lot for parts and get quality and you can also pay a lot for parts... shop wise. Look at the quality of the parts handed to you... does it look like someone sprayed paint right over the top of a fly? Does the items turn without grinding? Does it have the same types of fittings or connectors??? Do NOT give them your core until you are 100% sure it works and has worked for a couple days... If you turn in your core right away you WILL regret it... IT's almost worth the core charge to save your old starter and have it rebuilt as a spare... NAPA seems to have good stuff... for now... It's tough... A: I agree! Also test the core to make sure it's not something else simple! IE: Customer came in today, and he and his girlfriend were stuck in Seattle all night because the one wire alternator he had didn't work suddenly. He had replaced it at NAPA this morning, but only got to Bellevue, WA and it konked out. He didn't have the $$ to get another (our tester is still on the fritz and waiting for parts ordered back in October), and since I just got offshift, I ran him down to the NAPA in Bellevue (just before close) and they tested it, but it was fine. They tried several tries to see if heating up caused the problem. Nope. We went back and he put it in, and I checked out his one wire adapted harness (it was actually many wires bunched together from an Escort or something to allow the alternator to take the place of his generator in his '70 Ford van) The wires all tested as live, and I checked from the alt + to the engine block and doghouse, and got a .5 volt difference. I asked him to check the ground cable, and he said "it's fine, see?" and it moved in his hand as he pulled it. 15 minutes later, the alt is back in, cables all tightened, and we push start it. The lovely squeal of the belt that says it's charging, but the belt is loose told me we had a cure. He let it run a bit, then backed up to a spot he could roll start it, pushed the alt out a little further and retightened the clamp adjuster (replacement alt had the adjuster ear in the wrong place, so he put a nut and bolt with washer in to clamp it in place), jumped back in, turned the key and heard the sweet sound of a Ford (sounds just like AMC! ) starter winding over and the motor catching up and roaring to life. They hopped in, thanked my for the help and headed off into the sunset, err.... make that future sunrise (hope they made it back okay. There was some concern over the amount of fuel on board and the $1.70 a gallon Bellevue price sucks!) Anyway, if anyone Tri-cities, WA knows Rick and Carol at Pasco autowrecking, stop by, say hi and let them know I was thinking about them on their way home! John: >anyway, stepping off the soap box, you shouldn't have trouble finding a starter... just don't let some halfwatt tell you it's a 327 Chevy...   If they call it a Nash, or a Rambler or a Kaiser 327 they're on the correct planet. :) (and don't even think about using a franchised repair facility or a dealer install it... buying parts from the dealer is one thing, having them work on your non-warrantied vehicle is quite another... ;) Copied and pasted from Schucks.com website: Vehicle:1967 JEEP J SERIES PICKUP 1.877.808.0698 CALL TOLL FREE NASCAR #NS3570SM $49.99 [Starter] Reman.; Delco Remy Lifetime W/24 Month Road Service There is an additional $20.00 core charge on this product SURESTART #3485 [Starter] Reman.; Mfg. by Prestolite; OE# MDY8102 SURESTART #3663S $39.99 [Starter] Reman.; Mfg. by Delco; 10MT Low Torque Limited 36 Month* There is an additional $20.00 core charge on this product REMAN ELE3664C $29.99 [Starter] Can Use For 3663S Limited 1 Year* There is an additional $8.00 core charge on this product STANDARD #3485 Reman.; Mfr.: Prestolite; DD PREMIUM #P3485 N/A Reman.; Mfr.: Prestolite; DD A: I think these were used till the Buick motors came on board, or till '72 when AMC changed the cranks, and then they are same/similar from '72 till they went to redux drive on the GWs -at-'87. (I still have at least 4 of these starters in good working condition kicking around that I won't need anymore. My stroker motor is getting the Redux drive to work with the AW4 trans. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 08:58:03 -0500 From: Brian Wall Subject: fsj: More transfer case talk Speaking of transfer cases, hereıs the latest challenge Iıve encountered... On the way home from work last Friday I my rear U-joint went out. Of course, I limped home (slowly) but now know I should have gotten a tow. Why? (some of you probably already know). Because I went to put the drive shaft with new U-joints back in yesterday and found a nice big puddle of fluid under the front of my NP228 (where it meets the tranny). In hindsight Iım sure all that vibration wasnıt good on it. I just wasnıt thinking about that when I drove home. Do you think itıs anything more than just a leaky seal? I havenıt had the opportunity to check the nuts to see if they came loose anywhere. If it is a seal, how hard is it to change? Also, given the position of the leak, is this fluid from the case itself, or the transmission? Thanks (as always) - -------------- Brian Wall Oklahoma City 86 GW - ---------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 10:30:24 -0400 From: mpolkkidodge-at-netscape.net Subject: Re: fsj: stereo suggestions? John- I have a JVC CD with a remote in my Dodge pickup. It cost me $150 and I couldn't be happier. A cd/cassette huh? Look in Crutchfield. The only one I saw there was a Sanyo for 250 bucks unless you have a japanese or Ford car with a double Din opening. Blaupunkt has a nice steering wheel control for 60 bucks more than you pay for the player but it really works nice. Almost factory feel. Im afraid you will have to get a factory unit from a chrysler to get a cd/tape combo cheap. It chould fit in the dash. Custom fabrication!!!! That's all I can think of now, Can't wait to see that J10 when it's finished. Like a whole new Truck! Mike john wrote: > > I really like the stereo in my '99 WJ, it has both the cassette and CD! > it also has most of the controls on the back of the steering wheel as well! > > So, what kind of stereos are out there that I can get for my J10 (or any other > rig) that has both the cassette and CD and good quality without costing > more than a used engine?  And that would have some sort of remote > control that mounts to the wheel... > > hmmm... maybe I can find one from a wrecked GC...  ;) > > be sure to cc me as I'm in digest mode. > > thanx, > john-at-wagoneers.com > ------------------------------------------------------ >              http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ >   Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... >       jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 2001 08:39:19 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: 1987 jeep grand wagoneer] john wrote: > I"m not sure what year the d44 became the std in the GW, '87 may have > been it... I dunno for sure. 80-85 were the AMC20 years, no D44 rears at all. In 86 there were both D44 and AMC 20 (seen both with my own two eyes). In 87 I know of at least one rig with an AMC 20 but I think there are others with D44 as well. I think by 88 it was all D44, but maybe it took a long time for Chrysler to run out of AMC20 stock? FWIW, the panhard bars seem to limit the very small amount of sideways travel that is possible with leaf springs. I've compared, sort of, and it seems the panhard bars generate quicker steering response. Don't know what value they have in the rear. But I much prefer slower steering response esp with a lift. The sway bar of course limits body lean and they are nice to have on twisty mountain roads, but don't ever drive your FSJ like it was a sports car, please. :) Also of note, the front diff vac motor went away after 84, so 85+ have solid front axles with permanently engaged hubs. This is what made true shift-on-the-fly at "any legal speed" possible. I guess I'm a dimwit cuz I have hubs on my NP229 equipped rig. :) I inherited it, but I like it. Why spin the driveshaft etc and add that extra bit of friction into the mix... Altho one has to be VERY careful not to engage 4x4 with the hubs unlocked or you'll burn out the limited slip inside. The hubs only seem to make a difference at highway speeds esp climbing hills (ie, 11,000' passes) where every pony matters. The J truck probably originally came with an NP208 and hubs. NP229's are great tcases and probably the most common type (in junkyards you either find QT's or NP229s, others less frequently). They work great in snow and off-road. Maybe not as strong as some, but far stronger than any stock POS slip-yoke tcase such as is found in the YJ's. The low range is lower than most (2.6:1) which is excellent for of - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. 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