From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jul 11 09:21:01 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, July 11 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1376 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [fsj: Re: QT] Re: [fsj: Quadratracs and other xfr cases] fsj: What tranny & Rambler for sale Re: [Re: [Re: fsj: attachments on the lists...]] Re: fsj: Rambler for sale Re: fsj: Physics of Ping Re: fsj: what tranny? fsj: FYI on the FSJ magazine. :) fsj: timing chain cover seal fsj: Ping, continued. Re: fsj: Rambler for sale Re: fsj: Physics of Ping Re: fsj: FYI on the FSJ magazine. :) fsj: Awesome Golden Eagle fsj: re: oxygenates in gasoline fsj: of ramblers, rambling and lists FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Jul 2001 22:52:34 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: QT] Only one type of FSJ came with a D60 up front... the military version (M715 and M725) and had a D70 rear. No other FSJ came with anything more stout than a D44 front. From 1974-1991 they all had D44's. Cherokee's are an excellent choice for a trail rig given how much fender trimming is possible and consequently the size of tires that can be fit on them with minimal lift. Michael john wrote: > At 07:32 PM 7/9/01 -0700, Sean Daw wrote: > > >Thanks for the reply. I'm interested in the 70's model > >Cherokee's with the real quadra-trac. I believe they > >came with dana 60's up front. But my father owned one > >when I was real little now I'm wanting to get one for > >my self. I figured that I waould try to find out as > >much as possable before I went looking for one to buy. > >I also think I'm going to have to do some serious > >searching to find one between those years, so if you > >could help me on that I would appreciate it. Thanks > >again for your help on the quadra-trac! > >Sean > > I don't think the Cherokees came with Dana 60s up front... I'm not > even sure if the J20's came with Dana 60's up front... Dana 44's are > what the Chero's had. and the J10's... I don't know what, if any FSJ's used > a Dana 60 in the front... posting to the fsj lists for input. > > The Quadratrac you refer to is the Borg Warner 1339, the "original" > Quadtratrac. > I personally prefer the newer version of it produced in the New Process > NP219, which > is what I'm trying to put in my '83 J10 Stepside behind an '96 XJ 4.0L > engine/trans. :) > > good luck. > john > > > ========================================================================== ============ > For Full Size Jeep help see: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech - technical information > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs - pictures of FSJ's > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/digests - list digests > more info at: > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/FSJ-info.html > ========================================================================== ============ > john-at-wagoneers.com > remember, leaving life with out Jesus isn't recommended... > ========================================================================== = - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 2001 22:57:49 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Quadratracs and other xfr cases] john wrote: > I don't have time to dig up when the NP208 wasn't offered in the SJ, but > it seems to me that ended in the GW in '86 and only the Selectrac was > offered... but it could have been '87... or even '88... without digging As you mentioned, the only NP208 equipped GW's I know of were special ordered by the Gov't. In FSJ terms it sounds like CommandTrac was NP208 from 1980-198?, SelecTrac was NP229 from 1983-1985, NP228 in 1986, and NP229 from 1987-1991 ...? Mich - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:02:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremiah Westpfahl Subject: fsj: What tranny & Rambler for sale Well if Jim doesn't want to post to the AMC-List about the Classic I guess I can. :) The Chevy V6 XJs had the 998 w/ the 2.8 special bellhousing pattern. Think the only place it'd be useful would be in the 84-86 Jeeps, unless someone especially wanted to modify a Chrylser trans into their S-10. hehe. Miah 88 Grand Wagoneer 86 XJ Wagoneer-dead (stinkin Chebby) Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 2001 23:33:49 MDT From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: fsj: attachments on the lists...]] JeepNut-- Ok, you're right, I guess I must have misunderstood the intent of Pat's message. Sorry, Pat. I get angry when friends send me unwanted image attachments-- so you can imagine my reaction to attachments from strangers on mailing lists, or even the suggestion of converting a list I'm on to allowing attachments. Being stuck with 56k (effectively 33k) stinks but in this 30 year old neighborhood in a suburb of Denver, that's the best I can probably do for a very long time. I wished we could all share video and voice instantaneously thru email, but we can't. So I guess my point was, don't blame me for my lack of bandwidth, blame the deregulation of the phone companies. And until we all get megabit speeds to our desktops, sharing all sorts of multimedia without intruding on anyone is still quite possible via the web. Thanks, Michael JeepNut wrote: > Hi Michael, > Maybe I'm missing posts, but I only really recall that Pat Hines was > fairly interested in the attachments, but he is on other lists that allow > it. Which was my point in my last post. There's room for all in > cyberspace. > I hope. I'd hate to be excluded from sharing and gaining knowledge because > I > cannot live on the bleeding edge. If all the lists were the same, why > have different lists? > IMHO what happens to folks is that they naturally, innocently, relate to > their own day-to-day realities. If you've always lived in a major > metropolis or elsewhere where DSL is a functional reality, your cable > service is highly reliable, a cell phone actually works, or there's > efficient public transportation, you tend to believe/agree with all the > marketing regarding the ubquitous nature of such services and simply can't > relate to how it is to live where that just ain't so. BUT I'm afraid > marketing seems to overshadow reality. > To paraphrase the ol' Parrothead... > Don't try to describe the ocean or a KISS concert, if you've never seen > one, you just might wind up being wrong. ;-) > JeepNut > > Michael Shimniok wrote: > > > > I agree the majority of the people on the list probably don't have $40 a > > month > > for high speed access if it is even available to them in the first place, tho > > they probably have 33-56k modems -- assuming they can even achieve full 33+ > > speed on their phone line. But even at 56k, email downloads are doubled or > > tripled by just a few image attachments. > > > > So what I'm hearing from those in favor of email attachments is that if I > > want > > people to see my picture, I should be allowed to force everyone on the entire > > list to download my picture whether they want to or not, wasting their > > valuable time but saving a few minutes of my own time. > > > > Why is it so distasteful to spend your own time uploading your image to your > > website and then emailing the URL to everyone?? This is all just a courtesy > > issue from my perspective. (Not counting the issue with preventing the > > spread > > of viruses, reducing bandwidth on the email server, etc). > > > > Michael > > > > --- > > Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net > > "For every complex problem, there is a solution that > > is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... > '92 Cherokee > ----------------------------------------- - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:40:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Rambler for sale A: I will, but first they will need to know where it is! From: JeepNut     Sorry about the off topic post, but I consider Rambler a cousin of Jeep in the independent car companies of yesterday and I just would hate to see some goon get this who would not take care of it....     I went to pickup the Jeep today from the AC recharge shop and they have the most beautiful 63 Rambler American 2dr coupe there -- $2500.00!! This thing has only 50K on the clock and it is in the most amazing shape. No rust, dents, or anything. Interior is pristine! Has the flat head 4 cylinder motor. I call it Sea Foam Green if you know what that color is. Guy told me that the owner got it for next to nothing and is just passing it through more or less....     Someone Buy This Car! I don't know if it is really worth $2500, but it seems a good deal to me. Heck ANYthing with 50K miles and looks/runs good is worth that.     I would buy it myself, but am already looking for a second job, just to make ends meet. It is killing me not to run down there and grab the keys... **I have a serious weakness for homeless classics and dogs...I've got four of those "rescued" too...**     Maybe Jim Blair can cross post this to the AMC list?       JeepNut ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:52:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Physics of Ping A: High octane slows the flame front so the ignition temps are lower, and so then the NOx levels are lower and it cuts down ping. Ignition timing has to be retarded to lower NOx levels too. Colder heat range plugs will lower NOx (and ping) From: JeepNut ..and now, back to our show....     OK, Jim and Landon weighed in with some physics of ping. And there is validity there since it IS heat related. When the temp gauge is in the blue, no pinging happens. Once it crosses the first line above the blue it is weak and infrequent, but as the temp climbs up to about 1/2 way between the upper blue line and the next line up, it will start pinging at every throttle push and gets worse the warmer she runs. (no it's not overheating, doesn't get that hot.) I'm going to play with remvoving the thermostat, though I don't expect much change. Ambient temps have been near 100 all week....     NOW, what about Octane. Why does higher octane keep the ping at bay, at least mostly? What does octane do to reduce pre ignition?                 JeepNut Landon Tesar wrote: But in my mind an unusually rich or slightly rich mixture would be more susceptible to an early fire than a mixture short of fuel.                   Thanks to all. :-)                  JeepNut Why does lean cause ping ? Hmm. One thing is that a richer mixture is a cooler mixture, so pressure + temperature leads to combustion. - - Landon ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:03:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: what tranny? A: That tranny is a baby 904 that fits the AMC 4 cyl and 2.8/3.2L family of 6o degree V6s. (I think late model 2.5L GM motors are the same pattern, but the early version that went into the AMC Eagles, Gremlins and Concords had the GM V8 style pattern 904 (semi-rare trannies, but not really strong enough for a V8) The late '86 V6 2.8L was better (fixed the rear seal trouble, but not the leaking intake problem!) but the AMC 4 banger with EFI really shines in my book! (I think it's strong enough to push a FSJ around even! I recall similar HP rating to the 258) Mind you, I want MORE than a stock 258 can muster for my FSJ! That 4 banger would be an excellent transplant into that Rambler for updating! (OK, enough rambling about XJs and Ramblers!) From: JeepNut Hey all, In case someone can use them... The guy that has the Rambler also has an older XJ with a 350 stroker 383! WOAH mighty mechanical monster! What came out of it was the GMC 2.8 V6 with some kind of small one piece 3 speed tranny. He is selling the tranny cheap ($100) and it is supposed to be in good shape, no leaks, but he really doesn't know WHAT tranny it is. I told him I would ask. The V6 is in questionable condition but can be had for $50 or less probably. Memphis I promise the XJ questions will not be a habit, I just ran into all this stuff today with the XJ. Maybe you guys run into stuff like this all the time? I don't "get out" much so it's unusual for me to run into odd Jeep goodies for sale.                 JeepNut ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:45:21 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: FYI on the FSJ magazine. :) Just in case you were wondering... (like I was)... it's a little late. I'm sure it'll be worth the wait though, always is. :) john http://www.fsjmagazine.com/# Why is the May 2001 Issue so Late? Full Size Jeep Magazine is not a professional endeavour in that all submissions and articles are submitted on an "at will basis". The magazine cannot afford to pay cash for articles. As a result, imposing deadlines on article submissions is impossible. In fact, we understand that all our readers have lives outside of their FSJ hobby and sometimes cannot meet our deadlines. We are hoping that you, our readership, will understand this reality as well. As you may have noticed, the May 2001 issue of Full Size Jeep Magazine has not been mailed yet. This is due, in part, to late article submissions. Our goal is to have the May 2001 Issue in the mail before July 4, 2001. We are working on ways to ensure that this tardiness does not happen on a re-occurring basis. Thanks for your patience. If you have questions or comments, feel free to send them to: wagon_man-at-hotmail.com - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:41:21 -0500 From: Landon Tesar Subject: fsj: timing chain cover seal Brian - you wrote.... > They¹re also going to give me an estimate to take out some > pinion slop in the rear end and replace the timing chain cover seal. About > the latter of those two: after replacing the water pump yesterday, I found > it still leaked. > what was leaking from the timing chain cover seal - oil ? or antifreeze ? just wondering if it is something you have to go into to change the water pump or vice versa. - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:52:58 -0500 From: Landon Tesar Subject: fsj: Ping, continued. > NOW, what about Octane. Why does higher octane keep the ping at bay, at > least mostly? What does octane do to reduce pre ignition? > JeepNut > That's my understanding of the concept definition of octane - it is a rating of the temperature at which combustion occurs without an ignition source (at controlled pressure) the higher the octane, the higher the temperature. Maybe this doesn't answer your questions.... Have you tried octane booster - just to get a feel for the impact ? Would a lead substitute help here by reducing some friction and hot spots in an older motor ? Any thoughts from anyone on water injection ? Did you try a colder spark plug (less electrode exposed - a definite heat source)? Steve - there is something significant going on in your motor, but I don't know what. - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:46:17 -0500 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: Rambler for sale Where is it?... R.J. JeepNut wrote: > > Sorry about the off topic post, but I consider Rambler a cousin of Jeep in > the independent car companies of yesterday and I just would hate to see some > goon get this who would not take care of it.... > I went to pickup the Jeep today from the AC recharge shop and they have > the most beautiful 63 Rambler American 2dr coupe there -- $2500.00!! This > thing has only 50K on the clock and it is in the most amazing shape. No > rust, dents, or anything. Interior is pristine! Has the flat head 4 > cylinder motor. I call it Sea Foam Green if you know what that color is. > Guy told me that the owner got it for next to nothing and is just passing it > through more or less.... > Someone Buy This Car! I don't know if it is really worth $2500, but it > seems a good deal to me. Heck ANYthing with 50K miles and looks/runs good > is worth that. > I would buy it myself, but am already looking for a second job, just to > make ends meet. It is killing me not to run down there and grab the keys... > **I have a serious weakness for homeless classics and dogs...I've got four > of those "rescued" too...** > Maybe Jim Blair can cross post this to the AMC list? > JeepNut > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... > '92 Cherokee > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:58:45 -0500 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: Physics of Ping To answer your question about the Octane, as it was explained to me, was that the higher octane makes the the burn a slower and longer one, more burn for the piston.. R.J. JeepNut wrote: > > ..and now, back to our show.... > OK, Jim and Landon weighed in with some physics of ping. > And there is validity there since it IS heat related. > When the temp gauge is in the blue, no pinging happens. > Once it crosses the first line above the blue it is weak and infrequent, > but as the temp climbs up to about 1/2 way between the upper blue line and > the next line up, it will start pinging at every throttle push and gets > worse the warmer she runs. (no it's not overheating, doesn't get that hot.) > I'm going to play with remvoving the thermostat, though I don't expect much > change. Ambient temps have been near 100 all week.... > NOW, what about Octane. Why does higher octane keep the ping at bay, at > least mostly? What does octane do to reduce pre ignition? > JeepNut > > Landon Tesar wrote: > > > > > But in my mind an unusually rich or slightly rich mixture would be more > > > susceptible to an early fire than a mixture short of fuel. > > > Thanks to all. :-) > > > JeepNut > > > > > Why does lean cause ping ? Hmm. > > One thing is that a richer mixture is a cooler mixture, so pressure + > > temperature leads to combustion. > > > > - Landon > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... > '92 Cherokee > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:04:17 -0500 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: FYI on the FSJ magazine. :) yes, but now it's after july 4... R.J. john wrote: > > Just in case you were wondering... (like I was)... it's a little late. > > I'm sure it'll be worth the wait though, always is. :) > john > > http://www.fsjmagazine.com/# > > Why is the May 2001 Issue so Late? > > Full Size Jeep Magazine is not a professional endeavour in that all > submissions and > articles are submitted on an "at will basis". The magazine cannot afford > to pay cash for > articles. As a result, imposing deadlines on article submissions is > impossible. In fact, we > understand that all our readers have lives outside of their FSJ hobby and > sometimes > cannot meet our deadlines. We are hoping that you, our readership, will > understand this > reality as well. > > As you may have noticed, the May 2001 issue of Full Size Jeep Magazine > has not been > mailed yet. This is due, in part, to late article submissions. Our goal > is to have the May > 2001 Issue in the mail before July 4, 2001. We are working on ways to > ensure that this > tardiness does not happen on a re-occurring basis. > > Thanks for your patience. > > If you have questions or comments, feel free to send them to: > wagon_man-at-hotmail.com > ------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ > Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > jesus, don't leave life without him, please! > ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:08:10 -0400 From: mpolkkidodge-at-netscape.net Subject: fsj: Awesome Golden Eagle I don't own this one, just saw it on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=593193559 79 J10 Golden EAGLE. Nice truck with factory am/fm/cb In Iowa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:06:33 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: re: oxygenates in gasoline THIS was an excellent post, thanx for the info! john Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:49:33 -0400 From: RFISCHEL-at-osc.state.ny.us Subject: fsj: oxygenates in gasoline For all of you concerned with performance and economy as a result of the addition of oxygenates to gasoline, read the following: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/ostp-3.pdf ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux **** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://junkscience.com ** http://snopes.com ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA ...don't leave life without Jesus, please... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:18:02 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: of ramblers, rambling and lists hey jeepnut... that sounds like a good deal on that rambler... too bad you can't dive on it... understand the dilema... "technically" I have four jeeps right now... 1 is a temp, the '87 xj, 1 is sold, the panel, 1 is in dry dock getting resto'd, the other is the wife's... :) And get this, the guy up the street has FOUR flatfenders for sale!!! lowest price one, $500... 48 or so through 52... i think. I mentioned a "passing" interest while passing them the other day and I got "the look"... you married guys know what I mean... :) Needless to say, I'll soon have TWO Jeeps... ;) as far as attachments - I don't want 'em, don't need 'em and won't let 'em happen on this list. :) If someone has something of such great importance, they can post it to their website and share the URL and reduce traffic. If they don't have a website, well, ask someone that does. I used to offer a home to all the stray images out there, but with over 2 gigs on my server I'm not as eager to do it anymore. :) My server is all paid for out of my own pocket, haven't had the time to chase down ads or sign up subscribers or rent out space... All I know is it's really irritating to get these .vcf files, fancy html backgrounds, and other clutter dropped into my directory when I read email... what's wrong with plain text anyway? :) One other thing that is wonderful about Richard Welty's lists is we don't get spammed, well, at least not through the list itself. I'm sure that there are harvesting tools out there sniffing and extracting our email addresses all the time... BTW, I checked with Jackys on the CD changer for the radio I'm trying to buy, and it would cost a small fortune to ship... :( Dealing with an outfit halfway around the world is rather interesting, there is a day delay between activity. Started the order July 7. They tried to charge my card, didn't happen. I checked with the bank, they said try again. Still don't know if they have, but in the meantime got the quotes for other stuff. :) Still a decent price considering the shipping and all. Found some other outfits for the accessories... john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux **** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://junkscience.com ** http://snopes.com ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA ...don't leave life without Jesus, please... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1376 **************************