From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Nov 23 18:18:15 2001 Return-Path: Received: from krusty-motorsports.com (IDENT:exim-at-krusty-motorsports.com [192.94.170.8]) by virtual-cafe (8.9.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13657 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:47:33 -0800 Received: from majordomo by krusty-motorsports.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 167KRa-0006qv-00 for fsj-digest-outgoing-at-digest.net; Fri, 23 Nov 2001 12:48:54 -0500 From: owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net (fsj-digest) To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net Subject: fsj-digest V1 #1503 Reply-To: fsj-at-digest.net Sender: owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Errors-To: owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Precedence: bulk Message-Id: Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 12:48:54 -0500 X-Keywords: X-UID: 1326 fsj-digest Friday, November 23 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1503 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: mileage and the 2wd myth Re: fsj: mileage and the 2wd myth fsj: Re: J10 dreamin' fsj: retractable bed cover Re: fsj: mileage and the 2wd myth fsj: Fwd: jeep truck Re: fsj: Re: 80'wagoneer Full-time to Part-time. Re: fsj: J10 dreamin' Re: fsj: Re: Help me please! - RE: fsj: Re: 80'wagoneer Full-time to Part-time. FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:50:08 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: mileage and the 2wd myth Yep dan, I prefer I-6's and Diesels for fuel economy. But full time 4wd over 2wd makes such little difference it's not worth the loss. Remember you're still pulling the weight around, and on most 4x4's that have 2wd mode you're still spinning the driveshaft and axles unless you have hubs, which isn't a good thing on an NP229... I've run my xj's with selectrac in 2wd and 4wd high and couldn't detect a noticeable change in economy. I've heard from folks that changed their old QT's over to part time, again, the best I've heard is 1mpg. Jeep did a study on what it saved to not spin the driveshaft and axles, they claim .1 mpg, that's 1/10th mpg... So 2wd for economy is a myth. I'll keep my options open with an NP242 though and hubs. :) That way I have some towing and burnout options... ;) If I need to flat tow my J10 for any reason I can disconnect the rear driveshaft, disengage the hubs and roll on down the road nicely... :) john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 04:47:27 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: mileage and the 2wd myth john said: {- But full time 4wd over 2wd makes such little difference it's not {- worth the loss. Remember you're still pulling the weight around, {- and on most 4x4's that have 2wd mode you're still spinning the {- driveshaft and axles unless you have hubs, which isn't a good thing {- on an NP229... Hey, you don't have to tell me. ;) I'm obviously willing to sacrifice the mileage for 4wd and other details, as are most of us on the list. Naturally we'll keep trying to find ways for better mileage, but we're not willing to give up a lot of the stuff that made us fall in love with the Jeeps in the first place. :) {- Jeep did a study on what it saved to not spin the driveshaft and axles, {- they claim .1 mpg, that's 1/10th mpg... {- So 2wd for economy is a myth. Well, putting it in 2wd instead of leaving it in 4wd all the time will save you quite a bit, but of course you didn't mean it quite that way. The better mileage of vehicles with no 4wd available typically comes from things like the vehicle being lower (more aerodynamic - less drag) and having less weight. And, of course, vehicles with 4wd options are typically less aerodynamic bodies in the first place, if you're comparing trucks to cars. Et cetera, et cetera... We all know the drill. :) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:36:52 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: J10 dreamin' At 03:26 PM 11/22/01 -0500, Machinedoc-at-aol.com wrote: >Hi John. >I had a couple of crazy thoughts about SuperDawg for you. What about >putting the batteries under the bed, setting up a tilt bed (For battery >access as well as utility) and in the space under the bed (Where that >aluminum panel in the back is) put an aluminum drawer for cables, jack, >what-ever. That way you don't sacrifice any real bed space. >Just some crazy thoughts to add to the mix. >Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. >Curtis I like it. We could put a tool box of some sort under the bed, if we have space, to put chain, heavy tools and such, keeping my weight low and centered. I like it. We could put the high lift jack under the bed as well. Out of sight, out of mind. The only problem might be is if I need it when I have a full load... so we'd want it were I wouldn't have to lift the bed very far to get it out... Remember I drive this thing like a sports car so putting the weight between the axles and closer to the frame rails works great for me. I like the idea of the drawer and boxes under the bed to keep the bed free, that way we can still mount the spare in the front of the bed, but have a mount on the brush guard for those times I want to haul something large. Looking at some of those retractable bed covers. Wouldn't be able to stand on them, but hey, it's a lot of work for me to get up there any way, likely to get dizzy that far off the ground anyway. ;) here's a couple of sites for ideas on the bed cover if we don't go with a diamond plate sheet. http://www.stylinconcepts.com/parts.cfm/partfamilyid/13 (think this is the retractable bed cover... they don't list a J10, but a comanche... for '83!!!) http://www.extang.com/ better get back in the house and wash some dishes... been surfin' ebay for lens for the Canon Ftb... going to shoot a roll today and see if it's any good. :) john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:37:29 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: retractable bed cover http://www.stylinconcepts.com/parts.cfm/partfamilyid/667/categoryid/11/subcategoryid/61 - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:55:00 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: fsj: mileage and the 2wd myth > Yep dan, I prefer I-6's and Diesels for fuel economy. I prefer I-6's for mileage over eights, and depending on the displacement of the eight, I'll take the six with more low end torque (i.e. ford 300 over a 302). Diesels just plain rule, partly because of their simplicity, partly because they have SO much torque, partly because they're far more fuel efficient than a gasoline engine. I had somewhat thought of stuffing a GM 6.2 under the hood of an fsj that someone chevied out, but haven't come across such a beast. Then again, I haven't been looking too hard. > But full time 4wd over 2wd makes such little difference it's not > worth the loss. Remember you're still pulling the weight around, > and on most 4x4's that have 2wd mode you're still spinning the > driveshaft and axles unless you have hubs, which isn't a good thing > on an NP229... > > I've run my xj's with selectrac in 2wd and 4wd high and couldn't > detect a noticeable change in economy. I haven't noticed a -significant- difference with the eagles I have running them in 2wd or 4wd, maybe a two miles to the gallon. > I've heard from folks that changed their old QT's over to part time, > again, the best I've heard is 1mpg. I've heard the same. Strangely enough, a lot of the kits that have this conversion had something like a 13% overdrive in the transfercase. > I'll keep my options open with an NP242 though and hubs. :) That > way I have some towing and burnout options... ;) If I need to flat > tow my J10 for any reason I can disconnect the rear driveshaft, disengage > the hubs and roll on down the road nicely... :) My fulltime FSJ does the towing, so I better not have to tow it with all four wheels down :) K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 00:24:33 EST From: BlackBox95-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Fwd: jeep truck Thought some of you guys might like this..... Box Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (rly-yc04.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.36]) by air-yc03.mail.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILINYC38-1122171149; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:11:49 -0500 Received: from satlink.com.au (sx.com.au [203.19.222.1]) by rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYC43-1122171100; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:11:00 -0500 Received: from 4x4-back.usa4x4.com.au (max1-ppp-49.satlink.com.au [203.19.222.169]) by satlink.com.au (8.11.1/8.10.0) with ESMTP id fAMMGU331315 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:16:30 +1100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20011123091021.00a02200-at-pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: usa/mail.satlink.com.au-at-pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:10:34 +1100 To: "blackbox95-aol.com" From: tony Subject: Fwd: jeep truck Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >X-From_: acousticc-at-optushome.com.au Fri Nov 23 08:29:28 2001 >From: "John Woodhead" >To: "usa4x4" >Subject: jeep truck >Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 08:24:31 +1100 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 > > >'67 JEEP J-2000 GLADIATOR = TON PICKUP 4X4 #740 > >Click here to see an original >1967 ad >**SHOW TRUCK** >LIKE NEW! COLLECTOR QUALITY! >THIS IS A TRUE CLASSIC TROPHY THAT >DEMANDS WORLDWIDE ATTENTION! >2,080 ORIGINAL MILES!! > > >Call us at (830)896-6850 for more info on any of our Wagoneers. > >Click here to view standard >features for all of our Jeep Grand Wagoneers. > >Color: Bright White/Tan Vinyl Interior >Mileage: 2,080 Actual Original Miles !! That's Right, Actual Mileage! >Engine: OHV, "Vigilante" V-8, 327 cu.in >Transmission: 3-Speed Standard on Column, Automatic selective drive hubs >with indicator light > >GREAT CONVERSATION PIECE! GREAT HISTORY! THE FINEST J-2000 IN EXISTANCE! >DRIVES SO SMOOTH! I COULD NOT BELIEVE MY EARS WHEN THE FORMER OWNER CALLED >TO OFFER THIS RARE ONE OF A KIND! ORIGINAL OWNER'S "CAR PAPERS" FILE WITH >JEEP ACCESSORIES BROCHURE AND JEEP GLADIATOR OWNER'S MANUAL^EFRONT & REAR >1967 TX TRUCK MATCHING LICENSE PLATES IN EXCELLENT CONDITION^E > > >Recent Renewal Work: (It took very little!) > >Brand New Under-Dash A/C installed by Collins Brothers Jeep Specialists >5 New 700:16 LD 4Ply Military Tires (including under-bed mounted spare) >New belts and hoses; New paint inside & out >New muffler and tailpipe, full service lube & filters >New battery, new fuel pump, new water pump >4 New shock absorbers; rear wheel bearings repacked >New thermostat and pressure cap >Complete tune-up with plugs, wires, etc. >Full professional detailing, inside and out >Price: $24,950 > >Call for further info and a test drive >Telephone: 830-896-6850 >Cellular: 830-739-0850 >No warranty is issued or implied with the sale of this vehicle. >Sale will be "as is" with no guarantee. Seller further warrants the >certificate of title to be free of all liens and encumbrances. >Back to complete inventory > >-- Home -- >Inventory -- >Financing&Delivery -- >About Us -- >Renewals -- >GW Features -- >Q&A -- >_____________________________________________ >Office: (830) 896-6850 Fax: (830) 896-6839 >105 Camp Meeting Road Kerrville, Texas 78028 >Texas Dealer number P32344 > >Powered By > >internet resources > > > >Best Regards, >John Woodhead, >www.acousticconcepts.com.au > >ACOUSTIC CONCEPTS. >Excellence in Audio Design. >Ph. 61-3-9585 1622 >Fx. 61-3-9585 1244 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 22:00:59 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 80'wagoneer Full-time to Part-time. A: The usual reason for going from full time to part time is the imaginary fuel savings with the V8. It only made a 5 mpg difference on my 6 cyl (15-20 mpg) with NP208 with the front hubs unlocked. Anyone out there switched from NP229/8 or NP219 to NP208 on the V8 seen any economy difference? (It requires a longer rear driveshaft to install and the dash 4WD switch becomes uneeded) The best way to improve fuel economy on the AMC V8 is to improve the fuel induction system (IE: Dump the thirsty Holley/ Motorcraft 21XX and get either a Carter/Edelbrock setup or Pro-Jection along with a kick in the pants of power and 14+ mpg) From: john At 03:23 PM 11/20/01 -0400, Alexander Guerrero wrote: Hi, I would like to know if I can convert my 80' wagoneer full-time to part-time, my wagoneer has NP219 , with AMC 360 and Automatic Transmition if you can help me I'll be apreciated for your help. Alex Guerrero. The big question is why? The NP219 is an excellent transfer case and provides a "high lock" that the NP229 doesn't. Otherwise, swapping in an NP229 shouldn't be a problem, just add the underdash switch and a few vacuum lines. I would NOT install hubs or bother with the axle disconnect system they used on the NP229s. The NP228 and NP229 and NP219 should be interchangeable. If your NP219 Quadratrac is working I'd recommend leaving it in place. If it's broken, an NP228 or NP229 would bolt in with only the underdash switch and vacuum lines needed. Again, do NOT install hubs with the NP229 Selectrac, if you engage 4wd with the hubs disengaged you will damage the viscous coupler, very expensive... john ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 22:16:53 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: J10 dreamin' From: john The delay in the restoration of my '83 J10 continues, but this isn't all that bad. It's given me more time to think about the final product and allowed me to scare up more resources. :) Just contacted the wrecking yard in BC, $500 Canadian for an NP242. Have someone interested in the NP219 so it won't cost much to make the transition, and I might be able to sell the $65 hunk of aluminum alloy to someone interested in adapting an FSJ xfr case to an XJ tranny, hey Jim? ;) A: My adapter is in my garage, just waiting for my belt sander parts to finish it. (I used to use this huge sander to do aluminum heads) Make sure the new NV242 is '91 or newer or it'll be 21 spline (won't fit) Current thoughts are focused on the bed. I was going to go with a dump bed setup... not sure I need or want to have the main bed dump as there are complications because of dual fuel tanks, tool boxes and so on. Not to mention the extra weight for the hydraulics... Haven't completely ruled it out, but I'm thinking I'll definitely make the J10 trailer a dump box as it'll be hauling gravel, bark dust, topsoil and scrap metal. Thinking about how to best use the J10 stepside bed. A hard cover without using the roll bar makes sense... A: I may be interested in the roll bar. (Need to measure first) thinking Diamond plate across the bed might be the way to go. boeing surplus sells the stuff in sheets, since the bed is just over 48" wide and 7'2" long a 4x8 sheet will almost work. Would have to build a frame to cover the bed, with filler on the ends as the stepside sides are higher than the front and the tailgate. Whatever way it's set across the bed it'll have to come off and then sit along the left side of the bed in a rack or holder of some kind. This will permit the use of the bed for large items and keep the lid with the truck and not block my view to the rear/right. The diamond plate material would probably be strong enough to walk on, yet light enough to move by myself. Might even be able to come up with a hinge to the side to allow it to open from the curb side and then "retract". In the bed itself in the back I'd like a tool box drawer. A: I'm building a crossbed one under BlackJack. Again diamond plate across the bed raised up on brackets or rectangular bar would allow enough space for a roll out drawer made from sheetmetal to hold the high lift jack, chains, jacks, handtools, spare oil, etc. It will eat of a bit of the bed height though. A: My jack will mount between my rear bumper and tailgate. In the front of the bed will sit the spare tire, mounted to the floor. A mount on the front brushguard will exist so the spare could be moved to the front if I needed the bed for a large load. A: I'm going with a sidebed tire mount, but for trips will tuck it under the rear deck. I'll have my winch on a removable plate for road trips too. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 22:23:00 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Help me please! - A: Actually, last time I checked there were nearly 1000 people on all 3 of the basic lists (plus the others I'm not on and some like me on 3+ lists) From: john I think altogether on all the FSJ lists there's well over 500 folks. ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:30:35 -0800 From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Re: 80'wagoneer Full-time to Part-time. You're welcome. Using the Edelbrock Performer manifold and Edelbrock 1406 carb will help your fuel economy by a mile or two per gallon and make your engine run much, much smoother. john At 10:54 AM 11/23/01 -0400, Alexander Guerrero wrote: >First, thanks a lot guys for yours recomendations the reason what I wanted >make the convertion is the fuel savings and my NP219 has viscous coupler >damage and this is very expensive but your are right John NP219 is an >excellent T-case I going to fix it and I will change my Holley/Motorcraft >for a better, then I'll send you my 80'wagoneer photos. > >THANKS YOU JOHN, THNAKS YOU JIM. > >Alex Guerrero, Caracas-Venezuela. > >----- Mensaje original ----- >De: "jim blair" >Para: ; >Enviado: Friday, November 23, 2001 2:00 AM >Asunto: Re: fsj: Re: 80'wagoneer Full-time to Part-time. > > >A: The usual reason for going from full time to part time is the >imaginary fuel savings with the V8. It only made a 5 mpg difference on >my 6 cyl (15-20 mpg) with NP208 with the front hubs unlocked. Anyone out >there switched from NP229/8 or NP219 to NP208 on the V8 seen any economy >difference? (It requires a longer rear driveshaft to install and the >dash 4WD switch becomes uneeded) > The best way to improve fuel economy on the AMC V8 is to improve the >fuel induction system (IE: Dump the thirsty Holley/ Motorcraft 21XX and >get either a Carter/Edelbrock setup or Pro-Jection along with a kick in >the pants of power and 14+ mpg) > >From: john > >At 03:23 PM 11/20/01 -0400, Alexander Guerrero wrote: >Hi, I would like to know if I can convert my 80' wagoneer full-time to >part-time, my wagoneer has NP219 , with AMC 360 and Automatic >Transmition if you can help me I'll be apreciated for your help. Alex >Guerrero. >The big question is why? The NP219 is an excellent transfer case and >provides a "high lock" that the NP229 doesn't. >Otherwise, swapping in an NP229 shouldn't be a problem, just add the >underdash switch and a few vacuum lines. I would NOT install hubs or >bother with the axle disconnect system they used on the NP229s. >The NP228 and NP229 and NP219 should be interchangeable. >If your NP219 Quadratrac is working I'd recommend leaving it in place. >If it's broken, an NP228 or NP229 would bolt in with only the underdash >switch and vacuum lines needed. Again, do NOT install hubs with the >NP229 Selectrac, if you engage 4wd with the hubs disengaged you will >damage the viscous coupler, very expensive... >john > >************************************* >JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche >http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ >http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 >************************************** - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1503 **************************