From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Dec 21 22:48:19 2001 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, December 21 2001 Volume 01 : Number 1525 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re:77 engine swaps... Re: fsj: Engine and tranny Swaps on a Wagoneer?? fsj: FW: lifter noise fsj: RE: [FSJ-List] 1988 Grand Wagoneer fsj: RE: RE: fsj-digest V1 #1478**(3M ADHESIVE WOODGRAIN)** fsj: Another ping fix? fsj: Re: Feb 2002 issue of Four Wheeler fsj: 2002 FSJ Calendars Re: [fsj: Engine and tranny Swaps on a Wagoneer??] Re: [fsj: FW: lifter noise] fsj: the TD version of the WJ Re: [fsj: FW: lifter noise] FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:48:10 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re:77 engine swaps... At 02:41 AM 12/20/01 -0500, fsj-digest wrote: >Another wild thought!!! Even more of a long shot, anyone ever update the >tranny to an overdrive unit like a 700R4? Ive seen 4wd versions with the >tail piece similar to what is on there now. I don't think ditching the 360 is worthy of flames... ;) I'm not sure if a Chevy motor is the way to go, not exactly the most reliable plants ever produced... not the worst either... I used a Buick 3.8L with a TH350 and an advance adapter to a model 20 xfr case in a '67, worked fine. Going with a fuel injected late model GM motor and tranny would be a great way to improve fuel economy, the only issue is mating the xfr case, doable... adapters or use one of their older xfr cases... not the best way but it'll work... I'm dropping a 4.0L into my '83 j10... had I the money when I started the project and a better understanding of the 4.7L I think I may have gone with a GC (WJ) driveline... might do something like that later, maybe in this '77 Cherokee I'm getting... we'll see how it works... it has the 360 and a 4 speed... later, john - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:54:14 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Engine and tranny Swaps on a Wagoneer?? A: You live where the eco-Nazis are king and you want to repower with a non-stock engine? First, the trans may be a TH400 internally, but the case will only bolt up to AMC engines. Get an expen$ive adapter (advancedadapters.com) or swap the AMC output shaft into the Chev trans, then you make motor mounts (have fun realigning the driveshafts so the Ujoints aren't beaten to a pulp!), or another expen$ive adapter, and cu$tom exhau$t, cu$tom power $teering ho$e$. Then there's the cooling $y$tem upgrade$. End result of at least one lister doing this was $1500 more than a new AMC motor installed, and he ended up with less power than the stock AMC! You'd be better off swapping in a 4.0L with EFI than a bowtie boat anchor. You just need a 6 cyl FSJ for driveshafts, mounts, exhaust, rad and an XJ for the motor and harness (my own 300 HP 250+ ft lbs of torque 4.6L stroker will kick almost any Chev V8's butt. I'll allow for Keith Black buildups! ) From: "Dan Shaw" Hey all, I have a '77 jeep wagoneer, its not a grand wag, the standard. The engine runs but it will need work to get running great. A full rebuild is in order. We were conteplating putting in a hopped up chevy 350. Okay before the flame mail starts for dumping the 360, its just a thought, cost and ease of parts and the ability to work on it myself are driving me to ask the question. Has anyone done this? Its using a turbo 400 tranny so thats not an issue. The other consideration is smog requirements, I live in CA the capitol for hard ass smog requirements. Another wild thought!!! Even more of a long shot, anyone ever update the tranny to an overdrive unit like a 700R4? Ive seen 4wd versions with the tail piece similar to what is on there now. Coming back from Fantasy land now lol Thanks Dan dshaw3-at-mediaone.net ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:32:36 -0600 From: "Randy Thomas" Subject: fsj: FW: lifter noise Subject: lifter noise Recently noticed some lifter noise (light tapping) - most noticeable at idle/low RPMs. What does this indicate....how can I check to see if it is serious or fix it fast(?) (planning on taking it on 1600 mile round trip - tomorrow). Engine runs strong, oil recently changed, timing chain recently replaced -no other problems, etc. Thanks for any help. Randy 89 GW [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:35:01 -0500 From: George Milam Subject: fsj: RE: [FSJ-List] 1988 Grand Wagoneer Jeff: I used to live in the Boston area, and up until last March I was actually living in Abington, just South of Boston Near Weymouth/South Weymouth. My mechanic for my '89 Grand Wagoneer was Jim at "Abington Sunoco". This guy was extremely honest and up-front. He was always honest about what REALLY needed to be done when I would take it in for work (never led me wrong). If you want to give him a call you can tell him that I referred you to him. He'll remember me (George Milam with the White Grand Wag that he arranged to be towed up to Vermont). I threw a rod through the oil pan back in April when I was back down in Mass. visiting. That was a few hedaches ago. Since then the Wag's undergone much restoration work and is in tip top shape and just home (yesterday) from a new paint job. The next task is a lift. George Milam '89 Grand Wagoneer "Moose" Vermont - -----Original Message----- From: austin, jeff [mailto:] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 12:04 PM To: FSJ (E-mail) Subject: [FSJ-List] 1988 Grand Wagoneer I've been a long time Jeep owner. I've had a 1983 CJ-7 Laredo for almost 10 years now. Replaced just about everything from the rear axle, rebuilt engine and a transmission as well as many other parts. I've always had a tough time finding a trusting mechanic, so I've popped around from Massachusetts to New Hampshire and Maine. I still have not found one that is honest and knows Jeep products well. I've now just purchased a 1988 Grand Wagoneer and need to put some work into it to make it road worthy. It will get a lot of highway miles put on it so I need it to be trustworthy and not break the bank. From what I gather it should only need a good brake job (possibly whole new brakes) and a full tune up as it only has 80k on the engine. Can anyone suggest somewhere in the Northeast, preferable within a 100 miles or so from Boston? I just found this FSJ group and from what I'm been reading it will be a very good resource for me. I'd appreciate any and all help you could provide? Thanks, Jeff Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To post message: FSJ-List-at-yahoogroups.com To subscribe: FSJ-List-subscribe-at-yahoogroups.com To unsubscribe: FSJ-List-unsubscribe-at-yahoogroups.com Moderator: FSJ-List-owner-at-yahoogroups.com Home Page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FSJ-List Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:50:56 -0500 From: George Milam Subject: fsj: RE: RE: fsj-digest V1 #1478**(3M ADHESIVE WOODGRAIN)** Full Size Jeepers: My Auto Body guy that just got finished painting my '89 Grand wag has a roll of woodgrain adhesive left over from my job that he said he would sell me for $65. He said it's long enough to do any panel including a tailgate with some to spare. I would think that they come in standard lengths.?.? Anybody interested or have any questions, let me know, I can get it for you for cost+shipping. George Milam '89 Grand Wagoneer "Moose" Vermont (IT'S SNOWING HERE) - -----Original Message----- From: Hictor Lspez [mailto:opmex-at-compuserve.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 8:23 PM To: fsj-at-digest.net Subject: fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #1478 Re: weather stripping Brian 86 Jeep GW: If I understood, your are looking for the external wood like cover. If that's true, 3M sells a gross, bright, high quality material as DINOC film, which can be get from a 3M dealer. By the way, notify about your inquiry, maybe it pays the trip to the border, since in Mexico the set costs around US $1,200 !! Regards Hictor Lspez '83 Wagoneer from Mexico city opmex-at-compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:56:23 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: fsj: Another ping fix? A: Spray on ceramic coating anyone? I didn't check, but it's supposed to be -at-$70 for a whole motor kit. (not including the old electric oven you'll need so you don't destroy the one you cook with) http://www.techlinecoatings.com/Retail.htm ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 Comanche http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998 ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:34:50 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Feb 2002 issue of Four Wheeler On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 AUTOtronic-at-aol.com wrote: >-->In a message dated 12/19/01 11:41:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, >-->john-at-wagoneers.com writes: >--> >--><< 1) he's on the wrong side of the Jeep >--> 2) is that a MAP??? (what were you thinking??? sheesh... ;) >--> 3) he's not holding a camera (or a reuben ;) >> >--> >-->1. Hides the battle of my bulge ah, excellent point. :) good strategy, will have to remember to stand BEHIND my Jeeps in future pictures... problem is I'll need to stand on something or all that will show is the glare from the top of my head... ;) >-->2. It's a repro Michelin 1947 map of western Europe cool... I loaned my Michelin guide of Germany to a friend in 1981 and never got it back... :( I remember you mentioning the trip when we had lunch... would have liked to have seen that map. That is some beautiful country. Belgium reminded me of parts of Wisconsin. >-->3. Mr. Tripod and his assistant mr. self-timer, took the photo Oh, I thought your illustrious co-author had snapped the shot. >-->If you want to read about a TDI WJ, click on this link. will do, is this the earlier article you wrote? >--> >-->http://www.jjournal.net/jeep/features/TurboDieselWJ/ >--> >-->Happy holidays, >-->Rich Same to you. Not sure when I'll get back down there... Will end up over in Foothills Ranch or some place like that next time... if there is a next time... Maybe I can check out your Super Wagoneer then. Or maybe you can get an assignment up here in Seattle or Portland and I can show you around a bit. :) ttyl, john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 2001 21:14:45 MST From: Michael Shimniok Subject: fsj: 2002 FSJ Calendars 2002 FSJ Calendars featuring retro full size Jeep advertisements are still available! Don't be the only FSJ enthusiast left without one! :) I can still process orders online pretty quickly during the holidays. If you mail me a check, processing will be delayed as I'm out of town. http://www.cfsja.org/2002/Calendars We've been turning around orders more quickly than we expected so if you order now, you'll likely get your calendar delivered in time for the new year! Remember, only $18 for one (less than what was offered last year), save $1 if you order two, and pay only $17 each if you order 3 or more. Happy Holidays! Michael - --- 86 GW "Troubled Child" 360/NP208/3"exh/4"lift/31"BFGAT 85 GW "Backhoe" 360/3"exh/2"lift/31"BFGATKO/Lockrite ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 2001 21:58:57 MST From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Engine and tranny Swaps on a Wagoneer??] If Toyotas and baby Jeeps can run small block Chevy's, so can the big Jeeps... moreover, it isn't like AMC is the only motor ever put in an FSJ. A 350 will be cheaper to rebuild (want to spice up your 360? plan to pay about $2800-3000 for fairly mild improvements), easier to find parts for, and if you get a more modern one and go with fuel injection it'll probably last a longer. I rebuilt the 360 in my rig but I think it'd be worth the effort of converting. The downside is the cost of the adapters, but apparently Novak (?) offers motor mounts etc for the task. The TH400 -is- an issue, because it has either a B-O-P pattern or a custom AMC pattern. You'll need to get a TH400 with a Chevy pattern. That will then probably NOT bolt up to your transfer case. I would think an adapter between motor/trans would make the most sense. I have no clue what CA would say about putting a newer motor in your vehicle... you best research that in depth first. It might be that if you put in a modern motor it must adhere to the requirements for the year the motor was made. It may be just plain illegal. One of the CFSJA guys put a 700R4 behind his 401 via adapter and also installed the quadratrac behind the trans with an adapter and some careful removal of material on the trans to clear the front driveshaft. He seems happy with it. Want to go wild? You could probably build up a stroked 360 using a 401 crank (I have read about this, no clue what is involved) and so your motor says it is a 360 but is actually a 385. However that would no doubt cost a fortune with all the custom machine work required. But it'd be hard to prove it wasn't the oem motor. :) It would probably be hard to get it to pass tailpipe tests tho. :) Michael - --- Michael Shimniok - KC0EKI - "A computer without Microsoft Michael.Shimniok-at-USA.NET is like a dog without bricks http://pw2.netcom.com/~shimniok/ tied to its head..." ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 2001 22:13:48 MST From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: FW: lifter noise] I wouldn't worry a lot. This type of noise seems to be unfortunately kind of common on 360's. However, here's a crazy idea. If you're running a fram or pennzoil oil filter, do an oil change, throw it as far away as you can, and install an AC Delco, Purolator, Napa Silver, Mobil 1 or K&N filter. Let us know what happens. I'd list Amsoil but haven't ever run one of those. This might make an interesting experiment-- those with the lifter tick, what oil filter are you running, and what happens when you swap to one of the above? Michael "Randy Thomas" wrote: > Subject: lifter noise > > Recently noticed some lifter noise (light tapping) - most noticeable at > idle/low RPMs. What does this indicate....how can I check to see if it is > serious or fix it fast(?) (planning on taking it on 1600 mile round trip - > tomorrow). Engine runs strong, oil recently changed, timing chain recently > replaced -no other problems, etc. > > Thanks for any help. > Randy > 89 GW > > [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] > - --- Michael Shimniok - KC0EKI - "A computer without Microsoft Michael.Shimniok-at-USA.NET is like a dog without bricks http://pw2.netcom.com/~shimniok/ tied to its head..." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:58:54 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: the TD version of the WJ reading through richard's article on the TD in the WJ, found this section that talked about performance and economy. The mileage seems low, my 4.7L V8 gets over 19mpg cruising at 75mph... My Diesels have all been in the high twenty's at interstate speed... sometimes in the low thirties... My '85 XJ got 32mpg, my '83 300SD did 28mpg or so... What is impressive is the 0 to 60 mph, 13 SECONDS! My '81 Wagoneer with a 360 V8 did it in 15 seconds, and that was with a 4v carb and free flowing exhaust... my '83 300SD only did it in about 15 seconds... so this is FAST for a Diesel... Wish they'd bring it stateside... :( http://www.jjournal.net/jeep/features/TurboDieselWJ/Update2/ The Grand Cherokee's high-speed performance came as a pleasant surprise. Prior to making the arrangements to secure the Grand Cherokee for the trip, I had read a number of turbodiesel road tests in European publications and all complained about the racket coming from under the hood. Admittedly the 5-cylinder 3.1-liter VM turbodiesel is not as quiet as even the 4.0-liter six, but once up to speed, it really settled into a barely noticed drone and had no problem running at over 180 kph or settling in at right around 100 mph, fast enough to stay out of the way of all but the fastest traffic, well above the average speed of traffic. European magazines report that 0-100 kph times fall into the 13-second range which if offered in the US, would prove satisfactory for domestic drivers. Steering felt a bit tighter than domestic Grand Cherokees but this may have been a function of the tires selected. On-center feel was great and our Grand Cherokee felt safe and poised at triple digit velocities. The real test would come the first time we were required to fill up the tank. Currently in Germany, a liter of gasoline runs about 1.95 DM while diesel is 1.50 DM, about 25% less. We went 480 KM on our first tank of diesel which required 65 liters to top off the tank. After doing the conversion math, that comes out to about 18 mpg, a respectable figure considering that more than half of our travel was above 100 mph. This compares favorably with the numbers turned in by either of the domestically offered powerplants, neither of which typically turns in numbers much above 15 mpg in real-world driving. After factoring in the fact that in Germany at least, diesel fuel is 25% cheaper; the turbodiesel is a viable alternative to both currently available gasoline power plants, acceptable performance with lower overall fuel costs. Now a bit of speculation on my part. The current generation Grand Cherokee was designed well before the DaimlerChrysler merger, thus the selection of the VM turbodiesel. Mercedes offers a 2.7-liter CDI engine in the M-Class SUV outside North America and I suspect that if a diesel option were ultimately offered in the Grand Cherokee domestically, this would be a logical choice. With gasoline prices currently on an upward spiral towards $2.00 per gallon, an economical diesel is certainly a viable option that Jeep must be considering at some point. Look for a diesel option no earlier than 2002 model year when it is expected that the current Grand Cherokee will receive an update. - --------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com '99 Grand Cherokee Ltd (WJ) - http://wagoneers.com/WJ '83 J10 stepside (SJ) - http://wagoneers.com/SuperDawg '77 Cherokee (SJ) - http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/johns-77-cherokee (son's collection: '67 J-3000, 67 Fairlane, 68 Montego) trailers: '74 datsun longbed, building '75 J10, selling '54 Chev stepside bed... http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:28:04 -0500 From: RFISCHEL-at-osc.state.ny.us Subject: Re: [fsj: FW: lifter noise] Mike, bad news for your theory, I'm running Mobil 1, oil and filter, and I have what is probably the same noise. As with Randy, engine runs strong, recent tune-up... I'm not too concerned, but it drives the wife nuts. - ----- Forwarded by Richard Fischel/ICM/NYSOSC on 12/21/01 09:20 AM ----- Michael Shimniok , k-at-usa.net> Sent by: cc: owner-fsj-at-digest Subject: Re: [fsj: FW: lifter noise] .net 12/21/01 12:13 AM Please respond to Michael Shimniok I wouldn't worry a lot. This type of noise seems to be unfortunately kind of common on 360's. However, here's a crazy idea. If you're running a fram or pennzoil oil filter, do an oil change, throw it as far away as you can, and install an AC Delco, Purolator, Napa Silver, Mobil 1 or K&N filter. Let us know what happens. I'd list Amsoil but haven't ever run one of those. This might make an interesting experiment-- those with the lifter tick, what oil filter are you running, and what happens when you swap to one of the above? Michael "Randy Thomas" wrote: > Subject: lifter noise > > Recently noticed some lifter noise (light tapping) - most noticeable at > idle/low RPMs. What does this indicate....how can I check to see if it is > serious or fix it fast(?) (planning on taking it on 1600 mile round trip - - > tomorrow). Engine runs strong, oil recently changed, timing chain recently > replaced -no other problems, etc. > > Thanks for any help. > Randy > 89 GW > > [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] > - --- Michael Shimniok - KC0EKI - "A computer without Microsoft Michael.Shimniok-at-USA.NET is like a dog without bricks http://pw2.netcom.com/~shimniok/ tied to its head..." ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1525 **************************