From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Apr 11 19:55:38 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, April 11 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1618 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Looking for a J-truck fsj: Bad MPG fsj: Re: Bad MPG fsj: Black bear? Re: [Re: fsj: Re: Jeep KJ on the RTI ramp ] Re: fsj: change of plans... fsj: updated Black bear? Re: [fsj: Black bear?] fsj: a little Ouray info RE: [Re: fsj: Re: Jeep KJ on the RTI ramp ] fsj: RE: Black bear? Re: fsj: a little Ouray info Re: [fsj: a little Ouray info] fsj: QT vs QD in real world conditions FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:19:08 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Looking for a J-truck This fall I'm going to graduate from my duties as Mr. Mom and begin to ramp my remodeling business back up. My wife has insisted that I get a better looking truck so I don't scare off potential customers with my "beater" - her word, not mine. She says I have too many projects and we can't afford for me to spend all winter fixing up my F-250. She has threatened to buy one for me if I don't do it myself. I can't allow that to happen. All I can say is it's gonna have to be a heck of a truck to get me to part with my trusty old F-250. Beauty is way more than skin deep : ) So here's what I'm lookng for: 3/4 ton or better 8 foot bed air conditioning respectable paint and body late 70's model would be preferred but I'd give up disc brakes for a Buick 350 Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 '88 Bronco ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 11:30:09 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: Bad MPG RJ, how does the oil smell/look? If the fuel pump diaphragm goes bad, there is a note in the Haynes manual saying that raw fuel will be dumped into the crankcase. Also, the power valve in your carb may be causing you trouble, causing you to run rich. Does it smoke when you gun it? This dropped my mileage from 11 to 9(the valve, not the gunning). Disengage the emergency brake ? Check your timing. Vacuum may be keeping the timing always retarded. Maybe run directly from carb to distributor. My air pump was exiting to atmosphere under the master cylinder when I bought the truck. I took the belt off. Would you like my simple vacuum diagram ? - - Landon ===================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:25:17 -0500 From: "R.J. Baynum" < cyberphoenix-at-qwestonline.com > Subject: fsj: Bad MPG? Well , now I am getting 6 miles to a gallon, were I was getting 10, which was bad enough.. I read in the old advertisement of the J-10 when it was new, that said it was 15 mpg in the city, and 20 mpg on the highway? so what gives? I don't hear anything missing it's got a low rumble.. but man it's going through the gas! what can I do? It still has the Old air pump, which is connected and not working, plus the Cal emission stuff still on it.. I think that should come off, but worried if i do something will happen , and there will be no going back.. Is the carb out of wack? ( motor craft 2150 2 v) I am wondering were to look first.. R.J. 80 J-10 Honcho 360V8 30 over with RV cam Huntsville AL. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:20:40 -0500 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: fsj: Re: Bad MPG Sure , that diagram might come in handy! right now it's raining, I will get back to you.. R.J. Tesar Landon-r16884 wrote: > RJ,how does the oil smell/look? If the fuel pump diaphragm goes bad, there is > a note in the Haynes manual saying that raw fuel will be dumped into the > crankcase.Also, the power valve in your carb may be causing you trouble, causing > you to run rich. Does it smoke when you gun it? This dropped my mileage from > 11 to 9(the valve, not the gunning).Disengage the emergency brake ?Check your > timing. Vacuum may be keeping the timing always retarded. Maybe run directly > from carb to distributor.My air pump was exiting to atmosphere under the master > cylinder when I bought the truck. I took the belt off. Would you like my > simple vacuum diagram ?- > Landon===================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Apr > 2002 23:25:17 -0500 > From: "R.J. Baynum" > Subject: fsj: Bad MPG? Well , now I am getting 6 miles to a gallon, were I was > getting 10, which was bad > enough.. > I read in the old advertisement of the J-10 when it was new, that said it was 15 > > mpg in the city, and 20 mpg on the highway? so what gives? > I don't hear anything missing it's got a low rumble.. but man it's going > through > the gas! > what can I do? > It still has the Old air pump, which is connected and not working, plus the Cal > emission stuff still on it.. I think that should come off, but worried if i > do > something will happen , and there will be no going back.. > Is the carb out of wack? ( motor craft 2150 2 v) I am wondering were to look > first.. R.J. > 80 J-10 Honcho 360V8 > 30 over with RV cam Huntsville AL. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:36:30 -0500 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: fsj: Black bear? Got this from a guy from another list, and also mentioned from another person as well.. Can this be done too in and around Ouray Co FSJ invasion? or would it be adding too much? R.J. 80 J-10 honcho subject: Re: Ancient Indian Ruins in Mesa Verde thurs Aug. 15? in Ouray Co Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:29:52 -0600 From: "Tom Houston" To: "R.J. Baynum" First off go to http://www.4x4trails.net and look around. Any trip to the area without doing a loop over Black Bear and Imogene Pass is a sin. Tom Houston Advanced Visual Technologies 4576 Brookwood Drive Loveland, Colorado 80538 1-970-667-2001 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:55:32 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [Re: fsj: Re: Jeep KJ on the RTI ramp ] One thing that is REALLY important is the type of ramp used... A 28 degree ramp is much, much harder than a 20 degree ramp, for example. We're hoping to get a ramp for Ouray and do an RTI contest there so we can all find out how we ramp under identical conditions. :) The winner will get a small plaque and possibly prize too. Michael Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) wrote: > A: Shoot, my bone stock unlifted MJ with 165.000 miles and 2WD ramped > over 500! > > From: Kevin Pekarek > > On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 06:34:50PM -0700, john meister wrote: > I'd say that's worse then the TJ... (see RTI.html link below) > Did lutin_plunder get the score? > Or was he laughing too hard... :) > I'm starting to wonder if my crown vic can ramp farther than that. > Anyone in the bay area got a ramp I could borrow for a few? Promise to > make you laugh by trying to drive a full size wagon up it ;) > John, was that your 81 that was on the RTI page? What mods did you have > on that rig to go that far up, or was that pretty stock? > K > > ************************************* > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 MJ > http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ > Black Jack's before pic: > http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Snohomish-April2-2000/PIC00004.JPG > ************************************** > - --- Michael E. Shimniok KC0EKI "Unix is evil. Daemons run michael.shimniok-at-usa.net wild. Zombies roam and http://www.netcom.com/pw2/~shimniok children are killed. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:02:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: change of plans... A: Maybe a little different setup. Get the auto trans for the diesel, and GM NP205 behind it and it should live fine. (axle config in pre '80 aren't a problem then) Getting the right 28 (or is it 32?) spline input gear for the NP208 would be a problem. I'm looking to put a 21 spline into my NP208 so I can put it in my Comanche instead of the NP207 I got. The custom made springs I got would probably sit level instead of 3" lift with a diesel in the front of a Chero. They were built for snow plow specs. From: Kevin Pekarek On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:05:53PM -0700, john meister wrote: On the other hand, it looks like I'm buying a Cummins Diesel when I get home... just the engine... not sure what I'm going to do with it yet. Might put it in my son's '77 Cherokee, or in my '75 J10 that I was going to convert to a trailer... Already talked to Curtis about using it in SuperDawg, but too many design issues, won't be ready in time for Ouray, Colorado (August FSJ gathering for the 40th Anniversary of the SJ). Interesting. I'd think that a cummins would go easier in a chryslered rig than a GM'd rig (meaning find an 80-up). You could PROBABLY get a 208 to live behind a cummins, and snag the auto trans out of a diesel pickup. The first gen tranny behind those was essentially a 727 with overdrive, and was pretty simple to boot. If I had a 79 or earlier rig, I'd be looking more along the GM lines. A 6.2 diesel could be found pretty darn easily, and is fairly reliable. It is naturally aspirated, so it can be a dog, but unless you're getting a hell of a deal on that cummins, you could easily buy a turbo kit new and still be ahead. You also have the advantage of knowing the turbo isn't coked up, etc. The power max for them that I've heard seems to be around 240hp, which is certainly plenty to move a cherokee around respectably. Should be fairly easy to drop in too, with all the chevy kits out there, I could swear the diesel shared mounts with either the big block or the small block. the 240hp figure also didn't include propane, that was just big injectors and a turbo. MIGHT need to swap head gaskets to run propane... those 6.2s had relatively high compression. I've wanted a diesel SJ myself, and pretty much came to the conclusion that I was going to hunt for one that someone converted to a 350 chevy (or whatever) and make it a diesel, then put a full-time qtrac in it. Was kinda toying with trying to stuff a cummins in an 80-up with the dodge tranny and a 208 (don't think a 229 would hold up long behind something with 450+ ft-lbs), but I hear a cummins is a bit tight of a fit in a waggie anyway. If I did run the cummins, I would try to get one of the first gen 12v models just because they're simpler engines... I have this nasty habit of wanting something I can field repair in the middle of the desert, and I don't want to have to bring a spare computer :-/ slightly OT here, but I've always thought a diesel ramcharger would rock much, and with the weight distribution of the rambos, it should do decent off road. It has a slightly shorter wheelbase, which could be good or bad, depending on your preference. Dropping one in in place of a 318 or 360 would be MUCH easier than putting one in a wag. Either way, you need to find some heavier duty springs to hold up that boat anchor :) K ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 MJ http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ Black Jack's before pic: http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Snohomish-April2-2000/PIC00004.JPG ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:07:26 -0500 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: fsj: updated Black bear? Subject: Re: Ancient Indian Ruins in Mesa Verde thurs Aug. 15? in Ouray Co Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:57:38 -0600 From: "Tom Houston" To: "R.J. Baynum" First off go to http://www.4x4trails.net and look around. Any trip to the area without doing a loop over Black Bear and Imogene Pass is a sin. The two trails I mentioned can be easily run in a loop in a single day with lunch in Telluride. It is well worth the effort. Take lots of film. This is some of the most awesome country in the USA. Tom Houston Advanced Visual Technologies 4576 Brookwood Drive Loveland, Colorado 80538 1-970-667-2001 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:08:59 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Black bear?] Black Bear Road is a fairly dangerous bit of road requiring spotting for big rigs like ours. Not that it is impassible, just dangerous. It requires 3 point turns or more with mistakes resulting in 1000' drops down a cliff side with no trees or obstacles to arrest movement. We will not be doing an organized trail run on this road. Those that want to do it, be careful and let me know how it was. :) We hope to do Imogene and/or Ophir Pass roads. Unfortunately, there is a "Demo Fee Program" in place to where you have to pay to use Yankee Boy or Imogene Passes. You have three choices: support the Fee Program by paying it which may result in most or all public lands requiring a fee to access; refuse to support it and be ticketed by not paying the fee and going on the trail anyway since it is not a voluntary fee; or not support it by turning around and not running the trail. CFSJA wants to take a neutral stance. We don't want to force all the people on the organized trail run to pay the fee and we won't pay the fee ourselves. Therefore, we have no choice but to not run Yankee Boy. We may run part of Imogene. We are researching these issues. Michael "R.J. Baynum" wrote: > Got this from a guy from another list, and also mentioned from another person as > well.. > Can this be done too in and around Ouray Co FSJ invasion? or would it be adding > too much? > > R.J. > 80 J-10 honcho > > subject: > Re: Ancient Indian Ruins in Mesa Verde thurs Aug. 15? in Ouray Co > Date: > Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:29:52 -0600 > From: > "Tom Houston" > To: > "R.J. Baynum" > > > > > First off go to http://www.4x4trails.net and look around. Any > trip to the area without doing a loop over Black Bear and > Imogene Pass is a sin. > > Tom Houston > Advanced Visual Technologies > 4576 Brookwood Drive > Loveland, Colorado 80538 > 1-970-667-2001 > - --- Michael E. Shimniok KC0EKI "Unix is evil. Daemons run michael.shimniok-at-usa.net wild. Zombies roam and http://www.netcom.com/pw2/~shimniok children are killed. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:35:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: fsj: a little Ouray info I talked to a guy yesterday (he was looking for motor parts for his original owned sweet Black 2 dr WT '83 Cherokee 360 and one of the other stores sent him over to see "the Jeep guy". Wonder you that is? ) and he's originally from Colorado. Apparently Telluride is short for miner's speak "to hell you ride". ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 MJ http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ Black Jack's before pic: http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Snohomish-April2-2000/PIC00004.JPG ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:48:41 -0600 From: "JC Jones" Subject: RE: [Re: fsj: Re: Jeep KJ on the RTI ramp ] Here's where those of us with long wheelbases and a wide track actually have an advantage. JC Jones http://www.wagoneer.net 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1984 Grand Wagoneer "Eeyore" 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" * * * * * =================== "They that can give up * * * * =================== essential liberty to * * * * * =================== obtain a little ============================= temporary safety ============================= deserve neither ============================= liberty nor safety." ============================= -Benjamin Franklin - -> -----Original Message----- - -> From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On - -> Behalf Of Michael Shimniok - -> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:56 PM - -> To: fsj-at-digest.net - -> Subject: Re: [Re: fsj: Re: Jeep KJ on the RTI ramp ] - -> - -> - -> One thing that is REALLY important is the type of ramp - -> used... A 28 degree ramp is much, much harder than a 20 - -> degree ramp, for example. - -> - -> We're hoping to get a ramp for Ouray and do an RTI contest - -> there so we can all find out how we ramp under identical - -> conditions. :) The winner will get a small plaque and - -> possibly prize too. - -> - -> Michael - -> - -> - -> Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) wrote: - -> > A: Shoot, my bone stock unlifted MJ with 165.000 miles and - -> 2WD ramped - -> > over 500! - -> > - -> > From: Kevin Pekarek - -> > - -> > On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 06:34:50PM -0700, john meister wrote: - -> > I'd say that's worse then the TJ... (see RTI.html link below) - -> > Did lutin_plunder get the score? - -> > Or was he laughing too hard... :) - -> > I'm starting to wonder if my crown vic can ramp farther than that. - -> > Anyone in the bay area got a ramp I could borrow for a - -> few? Promise to - -> > make you laugh by trying to drive a full size wagon up it - -> ;) John, was - -> > that your 81 that was on the RTI page? What mods did you - -> have on that - -> > rig to go that far up, or was that pretty stock? K - -> > - -> > ************************************* - -> > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 MJ - -> > http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ - -> > Black Jack's before pic: - -> > http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Snohomish-April2-2000/PIC00004.JPG - -> > ************************************** - -> > - -> - -> - -> - -> --- - -> Michael E. Shimniok KC0EKI "Unix is evil. Daemons run - -> michael.shimniok-at-usa.net wild. Zombies roam and - -> http://www.netcom.com/pw2/~shimniok children are killed. - -> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:48:41 -0600 From: "JC Jones" Subject: fsj: RE: Black bear? Black bear will not be an official trail for the event due to the tight switchbacks and very steep slopes, however there is nothing preventing you from running it. It's not very Full Size Friendly however, be prepared for 5 and 7 point turns to get around the switchbacks, and can you say "STEEEEEEEEEP". Make sure you have fantastic brakes so you don't take the "express" route down. http://www.narrowgauge.org/4x4/html/blkbear.html JC Jones http://www.wagoneer.net 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1984 Grand Wagoneer "Eeyore" 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" * * * * * =================== "They that can give up * * * * =================== essential liberty to * * * * * =================== obtain a little ============================= temporary safety ============================= deserve neither ============================= liberty nor safety." ============================= -Benjamin Franklin - -> -----Original Message----- - -> From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On - -> Behalf Of R.J. Baynum - -> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:37 PM - -> Subject: fsj: Black bear? - -> - -> - -> Got this from a guy from another list, and also mentioned - -> from another person as well.. Can this be done too in and - -> around Ouray Co FSJ invasion? or would it be adding too much? - -> - -> R.J. - -> 80 J-10 honcho - -> - -> subject: - -> Re: Ancient Indian Ruins in Mesa Verde thurs Aug. - -> 15? in Ouray Co - -> Date: - -> Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:29:52 -0600 - -> From: - -> "Tom Houston" - -> To: - -> "R.J. Baynum" - -> - -> - -> - -> - -> First off go to http://www.4x4trails.net and look around. - -> Any trip to the area without doing a loop over Black Bear - -> and Imogene Pass is a sin. - -> - -> Tom Houston - -> Advanced Visual Technologies - -> 4576 Brookwood Drive - -> Loveland, Colorado 80538 - -> 1-970-667-2001 - -> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:43:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) Subject: Re: fsj: a little Ouray info that's wonder WHO that is! LOL! ************************************* JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 MJ http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ Black Jack's before pic: http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Snohomish-April2-2000/PIC00004.JPG ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:29:16 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: a little Ouray info] Some of that didn't make sense but the last sentence did. :) Anyway, C.W. McCall did a great song "Black Bear Road" which probably describes the road reasonably well. A bunch of "Z's and W's all strung together" :) It's a cool song, fast paced bluegrass/country music with him speaking the lyrics. You'll kind of have to hear it to appreciate it. I'll be sure to take it with me to Ouray in case folks want to listen. :) http://www.narrowgauge.org/4x4/cw_pages/lyrics/bbr/bbr.html If you haven't heard of C.W. McCall then you might have been born too late or were in a dungeon during the mid-70's. :) I was real young but I remember it all because I was big into Semi trucks and trucker music and my parents got me the 8-track of "Black Bear Road", the big hit album with the #1 hit "Convoy" on it. So 25 years later, without realizing it, I go and visit and fall in love with the San Juan Mountain area that he's singing about in several songs on the album then a few years later it all hits me at once. :) Michael Carnuck2-at-webtv.net (jim blair) wrote: > I talked to a guy yesterday (he was looking for motor parts for his > original owned sweet Black 2 dr WT '83 Cherokee 360 and one of the other > stores sent him over to see "the Jeep guy". Wonder you that is? ) and > he's originally from Colorado. > Apparently Telluride is short for miner's speak "to hell you ride". > > ************************************* > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 MJ > http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ Black Jack's before pic: > http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Snohomish-April2-2000/PIC00004.JPG > ************************************** > - --- Michael E. Shimniok KC0EKI "Unix is evil. Daemons run michael.shimniok-at-usa.net wild. Zombies roam and http://www.netcom.com/pw2/~shimniok children are killed. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:53:58 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: QT vs QD in real world conditions Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:10:32 -0400 From: Jim Maierle Subject: Qtrac vs. Qdrive snow story (very very long) Here's a novel on how I spent my Tuesday afternoon, submitted for your consideration.... Situation: On Tuesday I had the opportunity to pit the quadratrac in my 79 WT against a 2001 Grand Cherokee with the quadradrive system. We were busting into the hunting camp for the first time this year since my dad is staying out there for a few days (he's retired) and I was enlisted to make the 50 mile drive and bring the jeep out to blaze the trail in from the plowed road to the camp, which is about 300yds total. The snow conditions couldn't have been worse; it was 2/3 up the wheel in most spots, nearly up to the front bumper meaning the entire underside was dragging and the snow was very wet and heavy with a slippery layer underneath if you got to spinning (I tried not to do that). On top of that, snowmobiles had been using that side road a lot so there was a very dense mat in the center. My dad took his 87 Suburban (which will be sacrificed this spring for its 350 TBI and 700-R4 to go in the cherokee via the AA kit, which I already have) but since it didn't stand a chance of getting in, and based on past experiences with the jeep it was up to me to blast in there. Also in attendance for the afternoon was my dad's and my deer hunting partner who has the Grand Cherokee. He uses it mostly for long distance highway travel here in the U.P. so he needs the added traction on many occasions during the winter, but had never purposely tried to see what it could do until this occasion. I aired the jeep's tires down to 30 lbs, which turned out to be enough, and managed to get all the way in without getting stuck once. I just kept going forward and back a little at a time and with some strategic but minimal shoveling, finally made a trail in almost totally without spinning the wheels or flooring it. In that kind of snow, slow works best. After I'd made it in over the first little hill, I took the Grand Cherokee up there to see what all the fuss was about with this quadradrive. Analysis: Turns out it's not always engaged like my quadratrac is. It was in high range, since lower torque was what the situation called for, but i suspect it locks in low (didn't try it; probably should have). The first thing I noticed was that the rear wheels would spin quite a bit before the fronts would engage, but when they did, they got you out of trouble for the most part. Along with the transfer case engaging, it would make a buzzing and/or clunking sound that indicated that the front and rear axles were locking independently of one another. However the locker or whatever's in the diffs works, it seems like it also uses the abs system to brake severely spinning wheels, but didn't go a tenth as good as my cherokee did for a few of reasons. The first is tires; his tires were the factory ones with almost 40k miles on them, 99.9% of which were on pavement. He showed me the spare in the back, and it seemed like there was about 3 times more tread on it than the ones on the vehicle had. Even new, they're not as aggressive as my 31x10.50 goodyear workhorses, or as wide; a little flotation helped in those conditions. The other thing is ground clearance; not quite as good as my cherokee even with its sagging rear springs. This made it drag even more. I know that it couldn't have made it where I did partially for that reason. From everything I've read, the new GC's weigh a few hundred lbs more than my 79, which weighed in at 4300 on the scales with 1/2 tank of gas and nobody in it. That combined with skinnier, bald, stock all-seasons, and the tendency to spin a bit before the front engaged made the GC dig down and hang up in the middle when pushing dense, wet snow with the undercarriage. The one time it got totally high centered on the snow where I had to hook up and pull him off, all four wheels were spinning at the same rate. I guess the trick to driving it would be to keep on the gas once the transfer case engages and let the axles do their thing. I wish there was a high range lock mode on it though; I could never have got in there if my cherokee was behaving that way; I would have dug myself down and got stuck if the front wheels weren't always pulling me forward or pushing me back at all times. The way I made it in was to establish a good solid track. I had to push the front end into soft snow, and then back up again to pack down the ruts with the back on the established trail. Trying to pull the truck backwards with no help from the front until the front engaged at high rpm and dug their own hole, settling the truck down onto the center mat wouldn't work. With the 79 I could do it since I never let the wheels break loose much; I'd let off when it felt like it would start to spin and dig down. Other places, like the flat parking area in front of the camp it didn't matter and I'd let it spin, but there's a fair size dip just before that and I actually had to go forward par tway down the hill and then back up repeatedly on the incline. The snow was deep at the bottom so that was shoveled out of the way somewhat. Eventually, all three vehicles made it in thanks to the trusty FSJ. Verdict: With the right tires, and a slight lift, the GC would be near unstoppable, and I'm sure it could toast my 79 rock crawling or hill climbing, providing the case locks in low range. Otherwise, for snow where high range is necessary and ground clearance is in short supply, depending on snow conditions (heavier and deeper = worse; common sense) the always-engaged BW quadratrac has the advantage. It just doesn't do to be digging yourself a hole for so long before the front kicks in, but those locking axles get a big thumbs up from me. Anyhow, the whole thing is on video so if anyone who's hosting a site would like the short version I could encode it as an mpeg, quicktime or avi, and people could download it. If anyone's interested email me and let me know where to send it. Jim 79 Cherokee WT South Range, MI ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1618 **************************