From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Apr 11 19:56:03 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, April 11 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1619 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [fsj: Black bear?] fsj: Re: QT vs QD in real world conditions (long) Re: [RE: [Re: fsj: Re: Jeep KJ on the RTI ramp ]] fsj: Re: want to drive back? fsj: this is enough to cure me... Re: fsj: this is enough to cure me... Re: fsj: this is enough to cure me... fsj: speaking of 460's... Re: fsj: RE: Black bear? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:29:11 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: [fsj: Black bear?] A: My wife said "NO!" (picture those 2 letters page sized) to Black Bear. As for paying to use the trail, how about writing whichever congressman is in charge of the area and point out how much people will miss in those areas in the way of income because of the fees turning perhaps 1000 or so people away? Point out we already paid the tax to keep them open. Double billing is unfair! From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Black bear?] Black Bear Road is a fairly dangerous bit of road requiring spotting for big rigs like ours. Not that it is impassible, just dangerous. It requires 3 point turns or more with mistakes resulting in 1000' drops down a cliff side with no trees or obstacles to arrest movement. We will not be doing an organized trail run on this road. Those that want to do it, be careful and let me know how it was. :) We hope to do Imogene and/or Ophir Pass roads. Unfortunately, there is a "Demo Fee Program" in place to where you have to pay to use Yankee Boy or Imogene Passes. You have three choices: support the Fee Program by paying it which may result in most or all public lands requiring a fee to access; refuse to support it and be ticketed by not paying the fee and going on the trail anyway since it is not a voluntary fee; or not support it by turning around and not running the trail. CFSJA wants to take a neutral stance. We don't want to force all the people on the organized trail run to pay the fee and we won't pay the fee ourselves. Therefore, we have no choice but to not run Yankee Boy. We may run part of Imogene. We are researching these issues. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:31:50 -0700 From: john meister Subject: fsj: Re: QT vs QD in real world conditions (long) Jim, I agree with you that tires are critical. My '99 Grand Cherokee with Quadradrive would slide off the hill here in Snohomish while my son's '77 Cherokee with the Dana 20 would make it. I had Yokohoma "street" tires at the time. I put the SAME tires (Michelin LTX) on my '99 WJ that were on the '77 SJ and the results (and conditions) were RADICALLY different. I did take a video of my son trying it in his '77 Cherokee, but didn't put it on my server, and of course the video of me making it UP the snowy/grassy/muddy hill was from inside with me hootin' and hollerin'... not exactly the kind of video I want to put out for public consumption. :) The GC made it without any trouble... my son's FSJ didn't... Maybe if he'd had QT, like Old Blue (81 Wagoneer) did (the NP219 version which is what's going into SuperDawg, my '83 J10 Stepside)... Anyway, I believe that the WJ only weighs in at about 3,900lbs and is even lighter then the Liberty (KJ). Your Cherokee is at least 4,500lbs if it's an ounce, especially with the old QT. :) My '81 Wagoneer tipped the scale at 5,200lbs... Either way, your Cherokee had at least 400 lbs on the WJ. And yes, the QT does lock up in low range on the QD setup. The noises you heard were the gerotor pumps engaging... So, let's try this run again with good treads on the WJ and NOT in your ruts and I think you'll be surprised at the outcome. Even with stock tires it'll do fine. The clearance issue is the axles, not as much the body dragging... both rigs are running the same types of axles. the WJ runs 245/75 r 16 or thereabouts, not sure of the OD. You mentioned 31's, that's about 30.88 inches, my guess is that the WJ's OD is close to that... If you can get the movie down to downloadable proportions I'll put it on http://wagoneers.com Might work better to break it up into a series of smaller ones... Email it as an attachment and I won't download them to my pc (24600 connection!), I'll just save them on my server. ttyl, john On 4/11/02 3:53 PM, Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:10:32 -0400 From: Jim Maierle Subject: Qtrac vs. Qdrive snow story (very very long) Here's a novel on how I spent my Tuesday afternoon, submitted for your consideration.... Situation: On Tuesday I had the opportunity to pit the quadratrac in my 79 WT against a 2001 Grand Cherokee with the quadradrive system. We were busting into the hunting camp for the first time this year since my dad is staying out there for a few days (he's retired) and I was enlisted to make the 50 mile drive and bring the jeep out to blaze the trail in from the plowed road to the camp, which is about 300yds total. The snow conditions couldn't have been worse; it was 2/3 up the wheel in most spots, nearly up to the front bumper meaning the entire underside was dragging and the snow was very wet and heavy with a slippery layer underneath if you got to spinning (I tried not to do that). On top of that, snowmobiles had been using that side road a lot so there was a very dense mat in the center. My dad took his 87 Suburban (which will be sacrificed this spring for its 350 TBI and 700-R4 to go in the cherokee via the AA kit, which I already have) but since it didn't stand a chance of getting in, and based on past experiences with the jeep it was up to me to blast in there. Also in attendance for the afternoon was my dad's and my deer hunting partner who has the Grand Cherokee. He uses it mostly for long distance highway travel here in the U.P. so he needs the added traction on many occasions during the winter, but had never purposely tried to see what it could do until this occasion. I aired the jeep's tires down to 30 lbs, which turned out to be enough, and managed to get all the way in without getting stuck once. I just kept going forward and back a little at a time and with some strategic but minimal shoveling, finally made a trail in almost totally without spinning the wheels or flooring it. In that kind of snow, slow works best. After I'd made it in over the first little hill, I took the Grand Cherokee up there to see what all the fuss was about with this quadradrive. Analysis: Turns out it's not always engaged like my quadratrac is. It was in high range, since lower torque was what the situation called for, but i suspect it locks in low (didn't try it; probably should have). The first thing I noticed was that the rear wheels would spin quite a bit before the fronts would engage, but when they did, they got you out of trouble for the most part. Along with the transfer case engaging, it would make a buzzing and/or clunking sound that indicated that the front and rear axles were locking independently of one another. However the locker or whatever's in the diffs works, it seems like it also uses the abs system to brake severely spinning wheels, but didn't go a tenth as good as my cherokee did for a few of reasons. The first is tires; his tires were the factory ones with almost 40k miles on them, 99.9% of which were on pavement. He showed me the spare in the back, and it seemed like there was about 3 times more tread on it than the ones on the vehicle had. Even new, they're not as aggressive as my 31x10.50 goodyear workhorses, or as wide; a little flotation helped in those conditions. The other thing is ground clearance; not quite as good as my cherokee even with its sagging rear springs. This made it drag even more. I know that it couldn't have made it where I did partially for that reason. From everything I've read, the new GC's weigh a few hundred lbs more than my 79, which weighed in at 4300 on the scales with 1/2 tank of gas and nobody in it. That combined with skinnier, bald, stock all-seasons, and the tendency to spin a bit before the front engaged made the GC dig down and hang up in the middle when pushing dense, wet snow with the undercarriage. The one time it got totally high centered on the snow where I had to hook up and pull him off, all four wheels were spinning at the same rate. I guess the trick to driving it would be to keep on the gas once the transfer case engages and let the axles do their thing. I wish there was a high range lock mode on it though; I could never have got in there if my cherokee was behaving that way; I would have dug myself down and got stuck if the front wheels weren't always pulling me forward or pushing me back at all times. The way I made it in was to establish a good solid track. I had to push the front end into soft snow, and then back up again to pack down the ruts with the back on the established trail. Trying to pull the truck backwards with no help from the front until the front engaged at high rpm and dug their own hole, settling the truck down onto the center mat wouldn't work. With the 79 I could do it since I never let the wheels break loose much; I'd let off when it felt like it would start to spin and dig down. Other places, like the flat parking area in front of the camp it didn't matter and I'd let it spin, but there's a fair size dip just before that and I actually had to go forward par tway down the hill and then back up repeatedly on the incline. The snow was deep at the bottom so that was shoveled out of the way somewhat. Eventually, all three vehicles made it in thanks to the trusty FSJ. Verdict: With the right tires, and a slight lift, the GC would be near unstoppable, and I'm sure it could toast my 79 rock crawling or hill climbing, providing the case locks in low range. Otherwise, for snow where high range is necessary and ground clearance is in short supply, depending on snow conditions (heavier and deeper = worse; common sense) the always-engaged BW quadratrac has the advantage. It just doesn't do to be digging yourself a hole for so long before the front kicks in, but those locking axles get a big thumbs up from me. Anyhow, the whole thing is on video so if anyone who's hosting a site would like the short version I could encode it as an mpeg, quicktime or avi, and people could download it. If anyone's interested email me and let me know where to send it. Jim 79 Cherokee WT South Range, MI - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com often via PINE on Linux ** (prefer plain text emails please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:36:12 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [RE: [Re: fsj: Re: Jeep KJ on the RTI ramp ]] Wide track, yes, as it puts more leverage on springs located in the same place as narrow track. However, vehicle wheelbase is taken into account as a handicap when calculating RTI scores. The ramp travel is divided by wheelbase. Long wheelbase can travel farther up the ramp, but will get a lower score than a shorter wheelbase vehicle that travels up the ramp the same distance. Michael "JC Jones" wrote: > Here's where those of us with long wheelbases and a wide track actually > have an advantage. > > JC Jones http://www.wagoneer.net > 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1984 Grand Wagoneer "Eeyore" > 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" > * * * * * =================== "They that can give up > * * * * =================== essential liberty to > * * * * * =================== obtain a little > ============================= temporary safety > ============================= deserve neither > ============================= liberty nor safety." > ============================= -Benjamin Franklin > > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On > -> Behalf Of Michael Shimniok > -> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:56 PM > -> To: fsj-at-digest.net > -> Subject: Re: [Re: fsj: Re: Jeep KJ on the RTI ramp ] > -> > -> > -> One thing that is REALLY important is the type of ramp > -> used... A 28 degree ramp is much, much harder than a 20 > -> degree ramp, for example. > -> > -> We're hoping to get a ramp for Ouray and do an RTI contest > -> there so we can all find out how we ramp under identical > -> conditions. :) The winner will get a small plaque and > -> possibly prize too. > -> > -> Michael > -> > -> > -> Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) wrote: > -> > A: Shoot, my bone stock unlifted MJ with 165.000 miles and > -> 2WD ramped > -> > over 500! > -> > > -> > From: Kevin Pekarek > -> > > -> > On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 06:34:50PM -0700, john meister wrote: > -> > I'd say that's worse then the TJ... (see RTI.html link below) > -> > Did lutin_plunder get the score? > -> > Or was he laughing too hard... :) > -> > I'm starting to wonder if my crown vic can ramp farther than that. > -> > Anyone in the bay area got a ramp I could borrow for a > -> few? Promise to > -> > make you laugh by trying to drive a full size wagon up it > -> ;) John, was > -> > that your 81 that was on the RTI page? What mods did you > -> have on that > -> > rig to go that far up, or was that pretty stock? K > -> > > -> > ************************************* > -> > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '84 J10, '86 MJ > -> > http://www.geocities.com/eaglemania2002/ > -> > Black Jack's before pic: > -> > http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/FESTS/Snohomish-April2-2000/PIC00004.JPG > -> > ************************************** > -> > > -> > -> > -> > -> --- > -> Michael E. Shimniok KC0EKI "Unix is evil. Daemons run > -> michael.shimniok-at-usa.net wild. Zombies roam and > -> http://www.netcom.com/pw2/~shimniok children are killed. > -> > - --- Michael E. Shimniok KC0EKI "Unix is evil. Daemons run michael.shimniok-at-usa.net wild. Zombies roam and http://www.netcom.com/pw2/~shimniok children are killed. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:19:18 -0700 From: john meister Subject: fsj: Re: want to drive back? Jim, :) I may be crazy, but I ain't stupid... I value my kidneys too much for that trip, rofl... Let's do the math... let's say 5,000 miles at 10mpg... that's 500 gallons at $1.50 a gallon, for about 750 bucks... and then there is the issue of "top" speed... let's call it 50mph... that's 100 hours of travel time... :) I'll pay for your ticket and you can drive it home for me, the gas and lodging is on your dime though... ;) rofl... You know, shipping a truck like this for about $800 sounds like a good deal when you consider the time/gas. :) john On 4/11/02 5:09 PM, "Jim B" wrote: > > From: "James Marciano" > Subject: 1970 Jeep J4000 for SALE, $800 > > Moving and I need to sell my '70 Jeep J4000 ... I've > had it since 1978. It has a very rough body > and needs brakes, but has as a second engine in > it, a Buick 350, that runs very strong. It also > comes with a 7 1/2' ft Meyers snow plow. It is currently > being used offroad, on a horse farm. It is located in > Morristown, NJ - about a half hour from NYC. > Truck must be picked up by buyer. A good project > for someone.. please email me back at james-at-thesquare.com > or call 917-721-5997 to schedule a time to > look at it. (No photos available at this time, > although I'll try to get to it... but you know > what they look like!) Asking $800.. James > > [end of message] - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com often via PINE on Linux ** (prefer plain text emails please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:33:03 -0700 From: john meister Subject: fsj: this is enough to cure me... I can FEEL the pucker factor on this one... http://www.narrowgauge.org/4x4/images/black_bear/black3.jpg This picture alone is enough to cure me of the desire to do the Black Bear road. I ran a trail like this up by Baccus Hill (south of Mt. Baker) with my '67 Wagoneer... of course there were trees to slow us down and it was only 300 feet down... :) Not a good feeling to be on the edge of shale... can hardly walk on it... Of course the guide used a J10, so SuperDawg shouldn't have a problem, especially if a Ford full size could do it... ;) john - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com often via PINE on Linux ** (prefer plain text emails please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:42:48 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: fsj: this is enough to cure me... On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:33:03PM -0700, john meister wrote: > I can FEEL the pucker factor on this one... > http://www.narrowgauge.org/4x4/images/black_bear/black3.jpg rofl > This picture alone is enough to cure me of the desire > to do the Black Bear road. I ran a trail like this up by > Baccus Hill (south of Mt. Baker) with my '67 Wagoneer... of course there > were trees to slow us down and it was only 300 feet down... :) Not a > good feeling to be on the edge of shale... can hardly walk on it... uh, note to self, buy an XJ one of these days, or at least something narrower than a SJ. Picture didn't cure me of wanting to run that trail. I bet the picture doesn't transmit an eighth of the feeling you get standing on top of that thing looking at the vast canyons around you. Dammit, now I wanna run the trail, and I wasn't even planning on going to Ouray. > Of course the guide used a J10, so SuperDawg shouldn't have > a problem, especially if a Ford full size could do it... ;) Yeah, that willys wagon (or at least that's what it looks like) seems to be making do with gravediggers. Bet an XJ or an MJ would eat that up pretty easy-like. K ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:20:21 -0700 From: john meister Subject: Re: fsj: this is enough to cure me... correction, Kevin, that is not a Willys, look at the pictures and you'll see the hood of a J10. :) They took the bed off of the "tour" Jeep and put about six seats up there... I'm not sure if it's the long wheel base or short wheel base Jeep J10. I've seen pictures of it in some of the Jeep books... So if the "guide's" J10 can make it down the stairsteps with that much room on either side, then SuperDawg could do it too... nonetheless, I'm not excited about the "error" factor... :) I'm sure we'll find plenty of trails suited, safe and sane. john On 4/11/02 5:42 PM, "Kevin Pekarek" wrote: > On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 05:33:03PM -0700, john meister wrote: >> I can FEEL the pucker factor on this one... >> http://www.narrowgauge.org/4x4/images/black_bear/black3.jpg > > rofl > >> This picture alone is enough to cure me of the desire >> to do the Black Bear road. I ran a trail like this up by >> Baccus Hill (south of Mt. Baker) with my '67 Wagoneer... of course there >> were trees to slow us down and it was only 300 feet down... :) Not a >> good feeling to be on the edge of shale... can hardly walk on it... > > uh, note to self, buy an XJ one of these days, or at least something narrower > than a SJ. > > Picture didn't cure me of wanting to run that trail. I bet the picture doesn't > transmit an eighth of the feeling you get standing on top of that thing > looking > at the vast canyons around you. Dammit, now I wanna run the trail, and I > wasn't even planning on going to Ouray. > >> Of course the guide used a J10, so SuperDawg shouldn't have >> a problem, especially if a Ford full size could do it... ;) > > Yeah, that willys wagon (or at least that's what it looks like) seems to be > making do with gravediggers. Bet an XJ or an MJ would eat that up pretty > easy-like. > > K - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com often via PINE on Linux ** (prefer plain text emails please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:51:56 -0700 From: john meister Subject: fsj: speaking of 460's... someone mentioned a 460 on the list.. yeah, I know it's not an FSJ, but my son has a good 460/c6 sitting in MY trailer and I'd like to see it go away... we'll even deliver it within 100 miles or so of Seattle... I think it's out of a '75 montego... should be a runner... $400 obo... john-at-wagoneers.com - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** john-at-wagoneers.com often via PINE on Linux ** (prefer plain text emails please!) ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:31:08 -0500 From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Black bear? hmm .. never mind.. yes, call me chicken.. besides, my wife will be with me and she is scared of heights.. she would have a screaming fit! thanks! R.J. JC Jones wrote: > Black bear will not be an official trail for the event due to the tight > switchbacks and very steep slopes, however there is nothing preventing > you from running it. It's not very Full Size Friendly however, be > prepared for 5 and 7 point turns to get around the switchbacks, and can > you say "STEEEEEEEEEP". Make sure you have fantastic brakes so you > don't take the "express" route down. > > http://www.narrowgauge.org/4x4/html/blkbear.html > > JC Jones http://www.wagoneer.net > 1979 Jeep J-10 "Max" 1984 Grand Wagoneer "Eeyore" > 1978 MB 300D "Fritz" 1986 Jeep XJ Cherokee "Junior" > * * * * * =================== "They that can give up > * * * * =================== essential liberty to > * * * * * =================== obtain a little > ============================= temporary safety > ============================= deserve neither > ============================= liberty nor safety." > ============================= -Benjamin Franklin > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On > -> Behalf Of R.J. Baynum > -> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:37 PM > -> Subject: fsj: Black bear? > -> > -> > -> Got this from a guy from another list, and also mentioned > -> from another person as well.. Can this be done too in and > -> around Ouray Co FSJ invasion? or would it be adding too much? > -> > -> R.J. > -> 80 J-10 honcho > -> > -> subject: > -> Re: Ancient Indian Ruins in Mesa Verde thurs Aug. > -> 15? in Ouray Co > -> Date: > -> Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:29:52 -0600 > -> From: > -> "Tom Houston" > -> To: > -> "R.J. Baynum" > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> First off go to http://www.4x4trails.net and look around. > -> Any trip to the area without doing a loop over Black Bear > -> and Imogene Pass is a sin. > -> > -> Tom Houston > -> Advanced Visual Technologies > -> 4576 Brookwood Drive > -> Loveland, Colorado 80538 > -> 1-970-667-2001 > -> ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1619 **************************