From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Jul 9 08:27:38 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, July 8 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1685 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [Re: [fsj: Rez Report]] Re: [fsj: Re: quadratrac and (different subject:) OX lockers] Re: [fsj: Re: quadratrac and (different subject:) OX lockers] fsj: Ouray or Bust... (at least I'll be in a Jeep... ;) Re: [Re: [fsj: Re: quadratrac and (different subject:) OX lockers]] Re: [1FSJ] Re: [fsj: Re: quadratrac and (different subject:) OX lockers] Re: [fsj: Ouray or Bust... (at least I'll be in a Jeep... ;)] Re: [fsj: Ouray or Bust... (at least I'll be in a Jeep... ;)] Re: [fsj: gearing for a J10...] Re: [fsj: Ouray or Bust... (at least I'll be in a Jeep... ;)] FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 15:26:55 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [Re: [fsj: Rez Report]] "Vince Orr" wrote: > Because I went with the full Edelbrock cam and timing chain setup, along > with the manifold and carb, I'm hoping for no jetting problems. > Edelbrock claims it should run fine. However, I have no clue how it > will react when in Ouray (+4 - 6K feet elevation). Is anyone going to > take extra carb jets along? It may run fine without rejetting. I think the biggest thing is to advance the timing per factory specs or whatever method you prefer. We had one guy come up to Ouray from Alabama a couple years ago with an Edelbrock and he did just fine. I don't think he rejetted cuz we were talking about how he thought his open 360 degree air cleaner might have helped him. I may bring an set of slightly leaner than factory Edelbrock jets. You can probably stop by a local parts store and get some. Otherwise try SummitRacing.com For more prep tips on hi altitude and other stuff, check http://www.cfsja.org/2002 and go to the Prepare section. Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 15:35:23 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: quadratrac and (different subject:) OX lockers] john wrote: > That's good to know... They have a cable operated Locker too, OX. > I like a locker on a trail and in serious slippery goo... but hate > them on the street... The only problem I see with the OX is it doesn't > appear available for a Model 20. As far as I know, they make them for REAR D44 in 4.10 and lower carrier. They plan to do the 20 but no word on when last I checked. Eaton e-locker may be available some year... good solutions are out there, just none for us. :) I would trust cable or electricity over air any day. Nevertheless, I had no choice but to install an ARB up front on mine while I was having the axles regeared. I decided the turning radius off-road and in snow would leave me regretting a locker and a limited slip seemed pointless for off-road use. Plus, the cost of an ARB was only $150 over a Powertrax Lock Right. The choice was easy. > Since SuperDawg won't be ready for Ouray (means I have to drive the Major poop. :( That stinks. I know the WJ will be nicer to drive but... I doubt I'm the only one disappointed that I won't get to see the cool 4.0L conversion in person. :( :( :( Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 14:40:14 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: quadratrac and (different subject:) OX lockers] At 03:35 PM 7/8/2002 -0600, Michael Shimniok wrote: >john wrote: > > That's good to know... They have a cable operated Locker too, OX. > > I like a locker on a trail and in serious slippery goo... but hate > > them on the street... The only problem I see with the OX is it doesn't > > appear available for a Model 20. > >As far as I know, they make them for REAR D44 in 4.10 and lower carrier. when you say "and lower"... does that mean I can get an OX for my Model 20 with 3.31's? 3.31's aren't a bad gear ratio... I think 3.73s might be better... I don't know... a lot of expense and bother if there isn't a gain. My main objective is fuel economy so I can drive my FSJ every day. :) >They plan to do the 20 but no word on when last I checked. Eaton e-locker >may be available some year... good solutions are out there, just none for >us. :) I would trust cable or electricity over air any day. agreed >Nevertheless, I had no choice but to install an ARB up front on mine while I >was having the axles regeared. I decided the turning radius off-road and in >snow would leave me regretting a locker and a limited slip seemed pointless >for off-road use. Plus, the cost of an ARB was only $150 over a Powertrax >Lock Right. The choice was easy. A full time locker is NOT a good thing. A tree gave it's life proving that to me... ;) > > Since SuperDawg won't be ready for Ouray (means I have to drive the >Major poop. :( That stinks. I know the WJ will be nicer to drive but... I >doubt I'm the only one disappointed that I won't get to see the cool 4.0L >conversion in person. :( :( :( yeah, I know, but Mr. Murphy is visiting Centralia, Washington these days... some low life ran off with my catalytic converter and mufller from the '96 XJ Saturday... just sitting outside the garage at my friend's house in the alley... :( We're facing much more serious technical issues... none that are show stoppers, but all take time to resolve... and money... and parts... I'll bring pictures... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 14:45:44 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Ouray or Bust... (at least I'll be in a Jeep... ;) At 05:19 PM 7/8/2002 -0400, fsj-digest wrote: >john wrote: > > I'm going to visit briefly with SuperDawg tomorrow... 5 weeks > > to Ouray... not sure if we're going to make it in time... :( >Wow... I hope you can pull it off... I fear this will be the case for a few >people. I'm still working on my axle swap and trying to fight a hoarde of Well, at least we'll be showing up in a Jeep... the current flagship model too... the model that would best compare to what the Wagoneer was in it's day. I'll be missing the Panascopic Vision though... :) >gremlins (not the 4-wheeled AMC kind, the other AMC kind :)) and get a bunch >of other 'goodies' installed. It seems that Mr. Murphy has shown up at my friend's house. Actually he arrived last summer and moved in with him, but we've been in denial until this last week... :) >I have a backup truck that'll do fine in a pinch but BOY will I be majorly >bummed if I can't bring TC after all these years of build-up. I will either >get the axles installed by Wed nite this week or I'm going to enter into a >major panic. I've considered the idea of picking up another FSJ... but considering the reliability/economy factor I'll be quite content driving my 1999 WJ. :) I think we got about 20.6 mpg on the drive down to Centralia Saturday. We took the scenic route home and of course our top speed was 60mph instead of 70... :) >On top of this we're also putting the finishing details on planning. There >is still plenty of work to do before August. Yeah, I need to vacuum out the wife's Jeep... check the tire pressure... figure out what to bring... ;) >FWIW, we're more interested in making sure FSJ -owners- arrive in Ouray in >August, than -what- they arrive in. We'd rather see nothing but FSJ's on the agreed. and at least I'll be there in a Jeep. :) >streets and trails, but we know these trucks and their owners all too well. SuperDawg would have been a nice ride I'm sure... but in a way I'm content with coming in the Grand Cherokee... it's a sweet highway machine that does well off-road... Quadradrive is a nice system... and at 19 to 20mpg I'll be smiling when we stop for fuel... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 15:49:40 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [Re: [fsj: Re: quadratrac and (different subject:) OX lockers]] john wrote: > >As far as I know, they make them for REAR D44 in 4.10 and lower > >carrier. > when you say "and lower"... does that mean I can get an OX for > my Model 20 with 3.31's? As in, lower gear ratio. The D44's require a different carrier for the 3.31's and 3.73's versus 4.10's, 4.56's etc, so the Ox doesn't (currently) work with 3.31's or 3.73's. If you can get to 4.10's or 3.73's without spending $1500 like I did, I say go for it esp with the OD tranny. > A full time locker is NOT a good thing. A tree gave it's life proving > that to me... ;) Heh. Good to know. I am pretty sure I made the right choice. One of the main objectives for putting WT axles under my narrow track was to gain back stock turning radius despite 33x12.50's... that wouldn't be possible with an auto locker. > yeah, I know, but Mr. Murphy is visiting Centralia, Washington these > days... some low life ran off with my catalytic converter and mufller > from the '96 XJ Saturday... just sitting outside the garage at my > friend's house in the alley... :( Ugh, that sucks. :( > We're facing much more serious technical issues... none that are > show stoppers, but all take time to resolve... and money... and > parts... I know whatcha mean. :( > I'll bring pictures... ;) Excellent! :) Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 15:05:17 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: [1FSJ] Re: [fsj: Re: quadratrac and (different subject:) OX lockers] On Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 03:35:23PM -0600, Michael Shimniok wrote: > john wrote: > > That's good to know... They have a cable operated Locker too, OX. > > I like a locker on a trail and in serious slippery goo... but hate > > them on the street... The only problem I see with the OX is it doesn't > > appear available for a Model 20. > > As far as I know, they make them for REAR D44 in 4.10 and lower carrier. They > plan to do the 20 but no word on when last I checked. Eaton e-locker may be > available some year... good solutions are out there, just none for us. :) I > would trust cable or electricity over air any day. They make 44 front and rear. The OX lockers were made mostly for CJ/YJ/TJ. Since D44's are a common swap in the front of those, they make a D44. They're planning on a D60 (a less common but still often done swap), and a ford 9" (same story). Rumor has it they're also foraging into toyotas. At that, they'll have broncos and landcruisers covered, both nice backup vehicles for a jeep :) Last I checked, the highest (lowest numerically) that the OX carrier could handle was a 3.91 set. I didn't know there was such a set available, but apparently there is. I was kinda miffed that there wasn't a 3.73 or 3.54 available, but oh well. I guess I just gotta run bigger tires :) I was somewhat considering putting ox lockers and 33's (and 4.10s) in a 78 WT that I never picked up. I liked the idea of being able to lock or unlock all three of the diffs separately whenever I wanted to. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) 74 Cherokee 2 door (258 1bbl, T15, D20, open 3.54 d44's) 77 Cherokee 4 door S (401 4bbl, TH400, BW QT, open 3.54 d44's) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 16:08:49 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Ouray or Bust... (at least I'll be in a Jeep... ;)] john wrote: > I've considered the idea of picking up another FSJ... but considering > the reliability/economy factor I'll be quite content driving my > 1999 WJ. :) I would too. The 85 GW has been quite reliable, but likes attention as much as any of 'em. It is a great truck and if called for, it will get me there and back no problem, but a WJ would probably be an even better 2nd Jeep. > Yeah, I need to vacuum out the wife's Jeep... check the tire > pressure... figure out what to bring... ;) Gee... hope there's time. :D > agreed. and at least I'll be there in a Jeep. :) Yup. :) > SuperDawg would have been a nice ride I'm sure... but in a way I'm > content with coming in the Grand Cherokee... it's a sweet highway > machine that does well off-road... Quadradrive is a nice system... and > at 19 to 20mpg I'll be smiling when we stop for fuel... ;) True... but I hope you don't give other listers any ideas! :D If you've never been on a trail with 10 FSJ's and witnessed bystanders staring... well, it's not something to be missed or forgotten. And it is truly a beautiful sight, too. All seems right with the world when you see a train of FSJ's set against the kind of backdrops we'll see in Ouray... Roughly speaking we can expect to see between 70-80 rigs in Ouray... try to picture what that'll look like in the mornings with all the FSJs driving by and parked in town or out on the trail, hills crawling with 'em... I can tell you, people will be flabbergasted to see all these trucks. And it'll be so cool for us enthusiasts. It'll be like going to the toy store every single day of the invasion. I recommend walking down the streets in the evenings or mornings just to look at all the different rigs. That's what I plan to do. Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 16:08:49 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Ouray or Bust... (at least I'll be in a Jeep... ;)] john wrote: > I've considered the idea of picking up another FSJ... but considering > the reliability/economy factor I'll be quite content driving my > 1999 WJ. :) I would too. The 85 GW has been quite reliable, but likes attention as much as any of 'em. It is a great truck and if called for, it will get me there and back no problem, but a WJ would probably be an even better 2nd Jeep. > Yeah, I need to vacuum out the wife's Jeep... check the tire > pressure... figure out what to bring... ;) Gee... hope there's time. :D > agreed. and at least I'll be there in a Jeep. :) Yup. :) > SuperDawg would have been a nice ride I'm sure... but in a way I'm > content with coming in the Grand Cherokee... it's a sweet highway > machine that does well off-road... Quadradrive is a nice system... and > at 19 to 20mpg I'll be smiling when we stop for fuel... ;) True... but I hope you don't give other listers any ideas! :D If you've never been on a trail with 10 FSJ's and witnessed bystanders staring... well, it's not something to be missed or forgotten. And it is truly a beautiful sight, too. All seems right with the world when you see a train of FSJ's set against the kind of backdrops we'll see in Ouray... Roughly speaking we can expect to see between 70-80 rigs in Ouray... try to picture what that'll look like in the mornings with all the FSJs driving by and parked in town or out on the trail, hills crawling with 'em... I can tell you, people will be flabbergasted to see all these trucks. And it'll be so cool for us enthusiasts. It'll be like going to the toy store every single day of the invasion. I recommend walking down the streets in the evenings or mornings just to look at all the different rigs. That's what I plan to do. Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 15:38:29 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: [fsj: gearing for a J10...] At 03:44 PM 7/8/2002 -0600, Michael Shimniok wrote: >4.10's... 31's... and overdrive... what's to decide?? :) "$" that's all... ;) If the 4.10 rear axle will drop in, which I think it will, and the 4.10 R&P from the front will drop into my driver's side drop D44, which I don't know, then it's just a matter of some labor... 4.10's would assist the get up and go factor in town for certain... and help low speed trail activity. hmmm... >If I had an opportunity like yours, I'd pounce on a set of 4.10 axles in a >second. In my mind, the best part about OD is the ability to run deep diff Almost sold the front axle last night... need to check on whether or not the R&P can be moved... will call Randy's Ring & Pinion to find out... >gears without redlining on the hwy... so you can get stupendous performance >without any economy penalty. That's my favorite thing-- getting my cake and >eating it too. :) then how come I saw a drop in fuel economy with my XJ with 4.10's and 30's? oh, yeah, my right foot... yeah, go ahead, blame it on me... my wife does... ;) >Instead I opted for 3.73's with 33's to get me to a stock 3.31/235 combo >because I just couldn't justify the effort or expense to do anything but a >727 trans. Performance won't be all it could be, but it'll be better than >what I have now without totally driving me nuts on the hwy (but I may not >like going over 65 anymore or may be forced to get a quieter exhaust >system) I spent a fortune on axle regearing and lockers, so this is what >I'm sticking with for the next 10 years I guess. :) I like 3.73s... not sure why... my '67 Wagoneer came with them, and my '99 GC has 'em... seems like a good "middle range" gear ratio... >Time to play with some gear calculators, huh? :) yep, need to break out my excel spreadsheet... or look on my own webserver, already have the data there... hold the line, maybe it's in here: http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/GEARING/ with 4.09 gears, around 55mph: 2550 rpm 235's: 53.57 31's: 56.35 http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/GEARING/409gears.html with 3.31's, around 55mph: 2050 rpm 235's: 53.21 31's: 55.98 http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/GEARING/331gears.html with 3.73's, around 55mph: 2250 rpm 235's: 51.83 31's: 55.42 http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/tech/GEARING/373gears.html OF course those figures are with a 1:1 final gear, the overdrive will drop it about 25%. tire size vs. rpm and speed =($A17*I$4*PI()*60)/(I$3*12*5280) a17 is engine rpm I4 is tire diameter estimated 30.38 for the 31x10.5's... Pi is pi... :) 3.1416 I3 is the gear ratio... in this case 3.31 >Btw, I'm far more looking forward to meeting you than your truck, but if you >couldn't tell, I am really bummed to hear the news that SuperDawg will be >a no show. Michael This will be a good time. We'll get to put faces to the emails. :) Of course some times that can be a bit frightening... ;) Some of us type better then we look. We must take care not to tramatize young children or little dogs. rofl... john >john wrote: > > Since SuperDawg ain't gonna make it to Ouray and he's at > > a point in the process where changing axles would make sense. > > I'm trying to decide if I should stay with the 3.31's I have > > now or go to something else. > > > > I've got the axles from a '75 J10 with 4.10 gears. SuperDawg > > will have a 4.0L HO engine with the Aisin Warner 4 speed automatic > > sporting a .75 final gear overdrive... > > > > I'm running 235's right now, but have a set of 31's available... > > > > It looks like SuperDawg's primary role will be commuting, with > > maybe a few runs around 200 miles or so, say to Portland or > > up to BC. > > > > The 3.31's seem like ok gears, but if I swap in the Dana 44 rear > > axle with 4.10's, I'll need to change the front axle ratio as well. > > > > I think that 4.10s would probably be too low, but would help acceleration > > and movement in traffic, and with the overdrive probably not hurt > > highway mileage... Considering that I'll be moving an FSJ with > > an XJ engine I'm thinking that might be ok... if it won't hurt in > > town economy. Thoughts? > > > > Problem is I don't know if the '75 D44 pass side offset R&P will work > > on the '83 driv side offset D44. Also, I don't know if 4.10s will > > hurt or help fuel economy in mixed driving. Big unknown. I know > > in my XJ running 30x9.5s my mileage dropped with 4.10s, of course > > the overall final ratio was 3% lower then "stock". > > > > The options appear to be: > > 1) buy a 3.31 R&P set for the rear '75 D44 and swap out the M20 > > 2) swap 4.10s into the '83 from the '75, if the front D44 > > R&P will work (setup for front diff only) > > 3) buy new R&P fore and aft for the D44s, say 3.73 > > > > The OX locker looks pretty good, although I'd be more interested > > in the Electric lockup True Trac. > > > > I'd like to have limited slip on the street and the ability to > > lock the axles on the trail or in snow... The OX locker or ARBs > > appear to only offer open or locked, while the True Trac locker, > > elocker?, would do it all... but aren't available right now that I know of. > > > > So, bottom line: > > 3.31's, 3.73's or 4.10s? Or something else? > > > > I'd like a Dana 44 in the rear, but at this point my Model 20 is > > ok and in place so leaving it alone isn't a problem, except that > > I'm limited to "locker" selection... hmmm... maybe the OX locker > > on the D44 in the front would be sufficient for trail use and just > > leave the rear end open or with a true trac for the model20, I think > > they are available... - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 15:49:07 -0700 From: john Subject: Re: [fsj: Ouray or Bust... (at least I'll be in a Jeep... ;)] At 04:08 PM 7/8/2002 -0600, Michael Shimniok wrote: >john wrote: > > I've considered the idea of picking up another FSJ... but considering > > the reliability/economy factor I'll be quite content driving my > > 1999 WJ. :) >I would too. The 85 GW has been quite reliable, but likes attention as much >as any of 'em. It is a great truck and if called for, it will get me there >and back no problem, but a WJ would probably be an even better 2nd Jeep. careful, the WJ's will spoil you... ;) > > Yeah, I need to vacuum out the wife's Jeep... check the tire > > pressure... figure out what to bring... ;) >Gee... hope there's time. :D yeah, I know what you mean, it'll be tough... will probably end up going with it still dirty inside... life is tough... ;) > > agreed. and at least I'll be there in a Jeep. :) >Yup. :) > > SuperDawg would have been a nice ride I'm sure... but in a way I'm > > content with coming in the Grand Cherokee... it's a sweet highway > > machine that does well off-road... Quadradrive is a nice system... and > > at 19 to 20mpg I'll be smiling when we stop for fuel... ;) > >True... but I hope you don't give other listers any ideas! :D well, consider that we'll preserve OH SO MANY more FSJ's if they're all driving around in newer Jeeps most of the time... rofl... >If you've never been on a trail with 10 FSJ's and witnessed bystanders >staring... well, it's not something to be missed or forgotten. And it is >truly a beautiful sight, too. All seems right with the world when you see a >train of FSJ's set against the kind of backdrops we'll see in Ouray... agreed... but I'll bring my tow strap to help y'all out... ;) and hopefully I won't need it because I don't have any tow straps and as far as I can tell there's not metal on the front of this thing... ;) >Roughly speaking we can expect to see between 70-80 rigs in Ouray... try to >picture what that'll look like in the mornings with all the FSJs driving by >and parked in town or out on the trail, hills crawling with 'em... Reminds me, I'll need to bring a gas mask... the fumes could get thick... ;) >I can tell you, people will be flabbergasted to see all these trucks. And >it'll be so cool for us enthusiasts. It'll be like going to the toy store >every single day of the invasion. I recommend walking down the streets in >the evenings or mornings just to look at all the different rigs. That's >what I plan to do. >Michael SuperDawg was in pretty good shape before we started this project... in fact, even in multiple pieces he looks better then many FSJs... :( But that's ok, the idea here is to do it right the first time. We've had a few set backs beyond our control... Driving the WJ out instead of the J10 is ok with me... I'm just looking forward to driving SuperDawg again daily... :) john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1685 **************************