From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Jul 12 09:16:50 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, July 11 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1688 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: [fsj: RE: WT axles in a NT GW?] fsj: Re: Selectrac, Quadratrac, etc. Re: fsj: Later SelecTrac Re: [Re: fsj: Re: quadratrac] Re: fsj: gears for dawg Re: fsj: Re: Oil weight? [none] Re: fsj: Oil weight? fsj: Re: Fwd: About the California SUV tax Re: [fsj: When did the cab lip disappear?] fsj: Re: gears for Superdawg fsj: Re: roof lip and last year fsj: Re: selectrac Re: [fsj: Re: Selectrac, Quadratrac, etc.] fsj: Re: Oil and break in fsj: RE: Re: Selectrac, Quadratrac, etc. fsj: Pictures of Rich Ser's '88 GW fsj: the ever changing jeep status... fsj: Oil pressure/relief spring/cam bearings fsj: "Is it normal to want to have as many jeep as possible?" fsj: 401 crank in 360 block? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:10:47 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: [fsj: RE: WT axles in a NT GW?] A: I do have a complete drum to drum (minus ebrake cables) J10 Model 20 (but it's wider than a WT with 2.72 open gears) for $150 if anyone is interested. (I can toss it in the trailer for Ouray if it's prepaid) From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: RE: WT axles in a NT GW?] "Jim B" wrote: > A: That would work for pre '80 Wagoneers and Cherokees, but the front > drop is wrong for '80 and newer (unless you plan to swap transfercase > internals with a RH drop NP case like I may have to) That said, I'd > like a set of NT '74-'79 for the new toy. I just bolted up a WT rear axle to my 86 GW and the front is going to go in soon too... Of course the axles came out of an 80-83 WT Cherokee which have the correct offsets. Unfortunately these axles (esp the 20's, unique to the WT Chero) are already rare and more are crushed daily. I am hoarding rear axle shafts as best as I can... I have 2 extra sets so far... if anyone sees some let me know and maybe you can bring them to Ouray with you. :) The WT's are only a little wider than a NT axle by maybe 1.25" each side... Another option is 10" rims and wider tires (ie go from 31x10.50 to 33x12.50) which will increase track width. Still another option is J truck axles; the front is the same as the WT chero (I hear) and the rear is... can't remember... 2.5" wider than NT each side? Needs spring pads moved. Or how about a junkyard axle... certain Dodge D60's have matching spring mounts. Probably plan on shock mounts and spring pads being moved. For me, the bolt up option provided me with enough challenge, thanks. :) Anyway I expect that my going from NT and 31x10.50's to WT with 33x12.50's will slightly increase stability in corners and on sidehill maneuvers and I should get most of my stock turning radius back, hopefully. I also suspect it'll articulate a tiny bit better. I have a 4" skyjacker lift. I am debating whether or not to do a 3" body lift as well. Something tells me that isn't going to happen before Ouray tho. :) Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:11:25 -0600 From: "Stephen D. Thompson" Subject: fsj: Re: Selectrac, Quadratrac, etc. > The Selectrac system came out in '83 and offers full time, low range > and 2 wheel drive! The later Selectrac, '87 and up, using the NP242 > (same as the Hummer) also permitted a "lockup" mode or part time mode. > The early NP229(8)s did NOT have a 4wd HIGH lockup mode, but did lock > up in low range. (lock up means 50/50 split of power front to rear). > > My favorite xfr cases are: NP242 and NP219. > > john John or anyone else: I have been watching this thread but am still a little confused as to the different xfr cases. I am looking at 80s GWs. Does the 82 have the older NP229(8) as noted above? Can anyone please break down the model year changes for GWs in the late 70s and 80s? Thanks and sorry for asking for repeat info. - -- Steve Thompson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:15:59 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Later SelecTrac A: XJ Wagoneers did. (early XJs also had the NP229 and NP228 as well as the whimpy NP207, like the one I'm selling and replacing with a NP208 for my Comanche's 4x4 conversion this fall) '87 and newer XJs came with 231 and 242 with 21 spline till 08/90 and 23 spline '91 and newer. We have found that while the 242 will bolt to the 727, there is a 7/8" difference the other way that needs a spacer. From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: Later SelecTrac Who got the later SelecTrac(NP242)? My '89 GW has NP229. - - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:21:35 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: [Re: fsj: Re: quadratrac] A: It feels slightly different in the snow than a NP229 (I liked it!) It works best if you have a .01 higher ratio front than rear so you are pulling yourself around. NP208 works fine as front wheel drive only as long as you're not too hard on the go pedal and the chain isn't stretched! They use the same chain. The reason for strength is the lack of viscous coupler and carrier make them less prone to destruction. From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [Re: fsj: Re: quadratrac] "Jim B" wrote: > A: Ah! But you forget the strongest of the NP cases FSJS got! The > NP208, which with the front hubs unlocked, also has the option of 2WD > low (great for towing) but it doesn't do 4 hi on dry high traction > areas well (who needs it for that though? ) The later model NV242s > look pretty good to me (I hope I get my new case soon!) I pulled my 228 and installed a 208. I haven't had much chance to test it, but I suspect it'll suck in the snow and that I'll miss the ol' 228. I was thinking about a 219... cuz (a) it bolts in (b) it doesn't have vacuum motors or switches (c) it has the option of 4hi lock meaning losing rear drive doesn't leave me limping home in 4lo. So, for my needs, it has the same feature set of the 208 with the advantage of better snow traction and the disadvantage of more front-end wear. I think this year is another el nino year so we'll undoubtedly get a nice blizzard again in denver for me to test the 208 out in. About the 208... is it really stronger? I have heard they put the 208's behind manual transmissions because they could handle shock loads much better than the 229's. But that doesn't make them stronger, does it? The 228/9 and 208 cases are identical except the latter is shorter--no v.c. or diff. Is the chain any wider? I haven't had 'em apart but if the case is the same, how can the chain width vary much? Gears stouter? Again, same case, same gears? Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:26:01 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: gears for dawg A: Since the auto is a lockup and O/D, it won't make much difference std or auto. From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: gears for dawg Hi all, John, I think 4.10:1 would be fine in Sdawg if you kept the 5spd. Prob'ly too low with the automatic for highway use, and haven't seen that your preferred tire size range will make enough of a difference. Where is the 5spd going again ? - - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:27:51 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Oil weight? A: I like 15W40 myself, because it HAS to be diesel rated to qualify. From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Oil weight? When I use dino oil I prefer 20W50, but I don't live where it gets below freezing very often... ;) With the AMSOIL Synthetics just about any weight will work fine in all our climates. Check the specs and you'll see... :) The 10W40 will work fine. In fact, you'll see a little bit better economy with that over the 20W50. I changed my '99 WJ from 20W50 to 10W40 as well. john ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:33:48 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: [none] Hi Vince, I suggest you ask your engine builder. Some build engines loose for High HP/rpm. Some build tight for longer life. Some have loose machining practices and won't have a good answer. I have a 'run of the mill' rebuilt engine with 40K on it. I put 20W-50 in, and agonized every time I started, waiting for the oil pressure to build. Esp. w/ a newly rebuilt motor, I'd start with 10W-30, using dino oil for break-in and then some. Suggest NOT using synthetic for break-in. Currently, I'm using 15W-40 Rotella-T, and I like it. It gets dirty and I change it - more often than I think it pays to go synthetic. - - Landon '89 GW Going to Ouray as far as I know =========================== Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:16:43 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" < vorr-at-attbi.com > Subject: fsj: Oil weight? John and everyone: Should I be putting in AMSOIL 10W40 in my new engine (stock oil recommendation)? What do you use in your AMC V8's of this vintage? - - --Vince '81 Wagoneer '99 TJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:49:38 -0700 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: fsj: Oil weight? On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 07:16:43AM -0500, Vince Orr wrote: > John and everyone: > Should I be putting in AMSOIL 10W40 in my new engine (stock oil > recommendation)? What do you use in your AMC V8's of this vintage? No. Never break in an engine on synthetic. It lubricates too well, and the engine will never break in. Switch to synthetic oil (if you are going to use it) after somewhere around 6-10k after you plunk the fresh engine in. K - -- Kevin Pekarek Redwood City, CA (near San Francisco) and Los Osos, CA (near San Luis Obispo) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:31:18 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Fwd: About the California SUV tax agreed... this has to do with "property rights". john At 12:51 PM 7/10/2002 -0500, Jim Hoffman wrote: >John, > Now I'm in Wisconsin but I always thought the whole intent of >registering a car was to pay "your fair share" to maintain the >roads, etc. If the car never leaves my property I should NOT >be required to register the vehicle! Just IMHO... >Jim/ >Oconomowoc, WI >john wrote: > > At 10:25 AM 7/10/2002 -0700, jerry wrote: > > *** The legislature changed the bill # over a holiday weekend & pushed it > > through. Same kind of crap they pulled with the "old-cars non-op" law. > > ( That made you have to register cars even if they were under a tarp in the > > garage. Only $5/year, but people forget - intent being to force old > cars to > > the crusher ) > > - Jerry - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:46:29 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: When did the cab lip disappear?] "allyoop" wrote: > Anyhow I decided I need to know when Jeep got rid of the lip over the > J-truck windshield. I saw both types, but mainly the older style. Also > what was the last year for Jtrucks? Based on my reading, 87 was the last year of the J-truck. I have heard of 87's sold in 88 (as 88's?). The last year of the 'brow' was 1980, based on J truck photos on ifsja.org and cfsja.org. A history article in the latest FSJ magazine made mention of it. Maybe nobody in Ketchum wants to part with their Waggies. :) Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:29:26 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: gears for Superdawg At 01:47 PM 7/10/2002 -0400, fsj-digest wrote: >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:05:57 -0700 >From: Tesar Landon-r16884 >Subject: fsj: gears for dawg > >John, I think 4.10:1 would be fine in Sdawg if you kept the 5spd. Prob'ly >too low with the automatic for highway use, and haven't seen that your >preferred tire size range will make enough of a difference. the automatic has a 25% overdrive (Aisin Warner 4 speed auto) >Where is the 5spd going again ? hard to say at this point. It was going to go into my '67 Panel, but curtis still thinks he's going to get it... ;) > - Landon - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:31:42 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: roof lip and last year At 01:47 PM 7/10/2002 -0400, fsj-digest wrote: >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:34:44 -0700 >From: "allyoop" >Subject: fsj: When did the cab lip disappear? 1980 was the last year of the cab lip >Anyhow I decided I need to know when Jeep got rid of the lip over the >J-truck windshield. I saw both types, but mainly the older style. Also >what was the last year for Jtrucks? the last official year was '87, although rumor has it that a few '88's exist. the Wagoneer's last year was 1991, but 4 confirmed '92's exist, the last one is in the National Auto Museum in Reno, Nevada. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:34:22 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: selectrac At 01:47 PM 7/10/2002 -0400, fsj-digest wrote: >Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:58:11 -0700 >From: Tesar Landon-r16884 >Subject: fsj: Later SelecTrac >Who got the later SelecTrac(NP242)? My '89 GW has NP229. >- - Landon the SJ models only got np229/228 XJ, ZJ and WJ models got the NP242, although the XJ model got NP229s in 1986, in '87 they went to the 242, still get 'em. john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:06:56 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: Selectrac, Quadratrac, etc.] "Stephen D. Thompson" wrote: > John or anyone else: I have been watching this thread but am still a > little confused as to the different xfr cases. I am looking at 80s > GWs. Does the 82 have the older NP229(8) as noted above? Can anyone > please break down the model year changes for GWs in the late 70s and > 80s? Thanks and sorry for asking for repeat info. It's easier than you think. Ignoring the early years, 1973-1979 were Borg Warner 1339 "QuadraTrac" cases. From 1980-1991 they used New Process cases: NP208, 219, 228, 229. QuadraTrac = full time, 4wd only, viscous coupler hi/lo or lock hi/lo NP208 = part time, locked in 4hi and 4lo NP219 = full time, 4wd only, 4hi with viscous coupler, 4hi lock, 4lo lock NP228 = full time, 2wd/4wd, 4hi differential, 4lo lock NP229 = full time, 2wd/4wd, 4hi viscous coupler, 4lo lock In the 1980's and 1990's it breaks down like this: 1980-1982 = NP208 or NP219 1983-1985 = NP208 or NP229 1986 = NP208* or NP228 1987-1991 = NP208* or NP228 * the only NP208's I know of after say 1983 were in special govt order FSJs such as those ordered around 87 for the forest service which also came with manual doors and bench front seat. Michael - --- Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:15:38 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: fsj: Re: Oil and break in Thanks guys, I didn't even consider the problems that synthetic could cause on break in procedure..... I'll switch to synthetic later. - --Vince '81 Waggie - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tesar Landon-r16884" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 1:33 PM > Hi Vince, I suggest you ask your engine builder. Some build engines loose for High HP/rpm. Some build tight for longer life. Some have loose machining practices and won't have a good answer. > > I have a 'run of the mill' rebuilt engine with 40K on it. I put 20W-50 in, and agonized every time I started, waiting for the oil pressure to build. > Esp. w/ a newly rebuilt motor, I'd start with 10W-30, using dino oil for break-in and then some. Suggest NOT using synthetic for break-in. > > Currently, I'm using 15W-40 Rotella-T, and I like it. It gets dirty and I change it - more often than I think it pays to go synthetic. > > - Landon > '89 GW > Going to Ouray as far as I know > =========================== > Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:16:43 -0500 > From: "Vince Orr" < vorr-at-attbi.com > > Subject: fsj: Oil weight? > > John and everyone: > Should I be putting in AMSOIL 10W40 in my new engine (stock oil > recommendation)? What do you use in your AMC V8's of this vintage? > - --Vince > '81 Wagoneer > '99 TJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:15:22 +1000 From: "Veijo Phillips" Subject: fsj: RE: Re: Selectrac, Quadratrac, etc. So does this mean I could replace the 229(8) in my FSJ with a 242 easily????? Wouldn't be bad to have some hummer technology integrated somewhere! Veijo > The Selectrac system came out in '83 and offers full time, low range > and 2 wheel drive! The later Selectrac, '87 and up, using the NP242 > (same as the Hummer) also permitted a "lockup" mode or part time mode. > The early NP229(8)s did NOT have a 4wd HIGH lockup mode, but did lock > up in low range. (lock up means 50/50 split of power front to rear). > > My favorite xfr cases are: NP242 and NP219. > > john ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:46:29 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Pictures of Rich Ser's '88 GW my goodness those images were massive... they were over a meg each, so I painfully downloaded them (slow dialup) and edited them... I figured we'd want to look at Jeep instead of field so I cropped 'em a bit. After cropping they're about 150k or so apiece... :) http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/Rich-Ser-88-GW/ john At 12:04 AM 7/11/2002 +0000, you wrote: >OK, Here they are... hope you like them... >Rich >Long Island, New York - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:07:04 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: the ever changing jeep status... my son was thinking of selling his '77 Cherokee and buying Paul W's '86 XJ. first thing we'd have done with it would be to yank out the worst engine ever put in a Jeep, the chevy 2.8L v6, and replace it with a late model 2.5L FI setup... of course that would take a lot of money and take a lot of time... while Paul's old XJ is pretty well setup, it has been "tipped over" and has a slipping tranny... figuring the gas mileage that it got when it was running we figure he'll be better off using SuperDawg's old 258 after it's rebuilt and fitted with the Weber carb. The '77 Cherokee is in pretty good shape overall... So, today's plan (which was also Sunday's plan, but not Mon or Tuesday's... ;) is to have my old 258 rebuilt and mated to the existing T-18 in his '77 Cherokee, then add another lunchbox locker to the front end and live happily ever after... in an FSJ. Meanwhile, down in Centralia, SuperDawg and curtis are sweating it out in the summer heat... won't be ready in time for Ouray, but with a little bit of good fortune might make it before the first snow... ;) Regardless of how long it'll take one thing is certain, it'll turn out a LOT better with curtis doing the work then with me. Shoot, I would have had things hammered, welded and duct taped into place already... ;) We put the fairlane in the autotrader tonight, and as soon as I get the 280Z to get over it's leanout condition, will be posting it in the same pub. If SuperDawg isn't ready by the time it sells I'll shop around for a nice XJ for a while... or just commandeer the wife's WJ for commuting... :) At least today it looks like the WJ will continue as part of the fleet. :) change is good... (sometimes). stay tuned to this jeep channel... john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:13:22 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: Oil pressure/relief spring/cam bearings Vince, suggest you read through.... http://www.froadin.com/vblite/showthread.php3?threadid=71 the suggestions are: that new lifters may not feed oil to the pushrods/rockers, cam bearings can be improperly installed and block oil movement, a new pressure relief spring is a good idea. checking the oil pump housing for wear is a good idea. - - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:57:02 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: "Is it normal to want to have as many jeep as possible?" A: It's called coveting thank you! I own ALL the Jeeps I see. (I just haven't paid for them all or told my wife yet! ) FSJ-at-shaw.ca wrote: "Is it normal to want to have as many jeep as possible?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:32:43 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: 401 crank in 360 block? A: This was posted on the AMC-list: From: Randy Guynn To: j2sax-at-yahoo.com, mail-at-amc-list.com Subject: So, 401 rotating asmbly with 360 pistons? Jesse, List, Amc 360 pistons will not fit 390/401 rods. The small engine wrist pins are .927 diameter, the 390/401 uses a 1.00 inch wrist pin. Rods will need to be floated, along with a different piston pin height. Simple math will lead you to the combo it will take to get the job done. Block deck height on 401 is 9.208 inches. Take the stroke, divide by 2, as only 1/2 the stroke is above the crank centerline. so, 3.68 divide by 2 is 1.84, then add the rod length of 401 rods, which is 5.858, this brings you to 7.698. Now, subtract the 7.698 from the block deck height, 9.208-7.698 = 1.51 IF you are going to run zero deck height, then this pisto can have no more pin height location than 1.51, just exactly the 401 pin height. The AMC 360 uses 1.60 pin height, you need to lose .090 thousandths to fit it in the block. Even if you switched to shorter early 390 rods, you still need to lose .022 thou. someplace. Jesse, if you are not careful, you are going to end up spending a lot of money for parts that will not work together. Yeah, I know there is a load of my naysayers out there always yaking about how negative I am, they just don't seem to get it, I am Positive. In this case, I am positive that you cannot press 360 pistons on 401 rods, and I am positive that the combo of 401 crank, 401 rods, and stock pin height 360 pistons will not work at all together. This old ''negative'' AMC nut just saved you from wasting money and time Jesse. I KNOW for a fact that you WILL listen to what I am saying because you KNOW I know my AMC business. Others out there that don't really know me always have some contention to bring up when I try to help with advice and such. Funny, I have had e-mails from listers eating me out because I explained they were wasting their money on this or that part that is of no use whatsoever except to seperate them from their money. The ones they should be angry at are the liars telling them they Must have this or that part when there is no reason for it at all. And I might add telling them fopr years and years. Most of these Naysayers always end their e-mails with ''no need to reply'' Boy, just great, someone that wants to chew you out but does not want to corespond to maybe LEARN something because they have been duped into believeing a MYTH for years. Yep, Call someone ''negative'' then run off and hide, that sure seems like a REAL GOOD WAY TO LEARN SOMETHING HUH??? not!!!! Thanks, Randy Guynn Performance American Style ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1688 **************************