From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Jul 12 09:19:09 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Friday, July 12 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1689 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: VJ vs C101 fsj: Re: [FSJparts] 401 crank in 360 block? fsj: Re: Selectrac, Quadratrac, etc.] fsj: Re: Fwd: About the California SUV tax fsj: Re: np242 vs np228 fsj: OURAY - YOU CAN STILL REGISTER! fsj: transfer case clarification and axle info fsj: Re: Oil pressure/relief spring/cam bearings fsj: OFF TOPIC : Great WorldCom Story fsj: Wisdom for the Dipstick fsj: factory AMC 4 bbl intakes Re: [fsj: Re: Selectrac, Quadratrac, etc.] fsj: Woody Worries FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:38:13 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: VJ vs C101 At 11:23 AM 7/11/2002 -0700, Jim B wrote: >What is a '72 Commando then? I think it's referred to as a C101, if memory serves me correctly... I do know it is NOT a VJ, see link below. :) The Jeepster's shared many parts with the CJ6. http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/jeep-model-codes.html btw, I had a '72 Jeepster Commando, so I know first hand: http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/JEEPSTER/72-Commando/johns72commando.jpg http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/JEEPSTER/ http://www.wagoneers.com/JEEPS/JEEPSTER/72-Commando/72commando.jpg john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:51:18 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [FSJparts] 401 crank in 360 block? passing this along to the fsj list... I'm hoping that jim didn't do the same, but this kind of "Myth-information" is good to know. So often someone will say, "sure the NP219 will bolt right up to an Aisin Warner 30-80LE from an XJ, they're both Jeep and the AW4 bolted up to an NP231/242, etc..." Then we get the two together and find almost an inch difference... $315 later and countless hours of design and fitting and voila, we have an adapter... The bellhousing from an FSJ will bolt up to a XJ 4.oL, however, the starter isn't quite right... and who knows what else until you actually try to make it work. It's rather irritating to have someone who is usually pretty good at this stuff say, oh yeah, just take this piece from this one and mate 'em up... at this point in the future I'm going to pretend to be from Missouri and say, "SHOW ME". :) john At 11:32 AM 7/11/2002 -0700, Jim B wrote: A: This was posted on the AMC-list: From: Randy Guynn To: j2sax-at-yahoo.com, mail-at-amc-list.com Subject: So, 401 rotating asmbly with 360 pistons? Jesse, List, Amc 360 pistons will not fit 390/401 rods. The small engine wrist pins are .927 diameter, the 390/401 uses a 1.00 inch wrist pin. Rods will need to be floated, along with a different piston pin height. Simple math will lead you to the combo it will take to get the job done. Block deck height on 401 is 9.208 inches. Take the stroke, divide by 2, as only 1/2 the stroke is above the crank centerline. so, 3.68 divide by 2 is 1.84, then add the rod length of 401 rods, which is 5.858, this brings you to 7.698. Now, subtract the 7.698 from the block deck height, 9.208-7.698 = 1.51 IF you are going to run zero deck height, then this pisto can have no more pin height location than 1.51, just exactly the 401 pin height. The AMC 360 uses 1.60 pin height, you need to lose .090 thousandths to fit it in the block. Even if you switched to shorter early 390 rods, you still need to lose .022 thou. someplace. Jesse, if you are not careful, you are going to end up spending a lot of money for parts that will not work together. Yeah, I know there is a load of my naysayers out there always yaking about how negative I am, they just don't seem to get it, I am Positive. In this case, I am positive that you cannot press 360 pistons on 401 rods, and I am positive that the combo of 401 crank, 401 rods, and stock pin height 360 pistons will not work at all together. This old ''negative'' AMC nut just saved you from wasting money and time Jesse. I KNOW for a fact that you WILL listen to what I am saying because you KNOW I know my AMC business. Others out there that don't really know me always have some contention to bring up when I try to help with advice and such. Funny, I have had e-mails from listers eating me out because I explained they were wasting their money on this or that part that is of no use whatsoever except to seperate them from their money. The ones they should be angry at are the liars telling them they Must have this or that part when there is no reason for it at all. And I might add telling them fopr years and years. Most of these Naysayers always end their e-mails with ''no need to reply'' Boy, just great, someone that wants to chew you out but does not want to corespond to maybe LEARN something because they have been duped into believeing a MYTH for years. Yep, Call someone ''negative'' then run off and hide, that sure seems like a REAL GOOD WAY TO LEARN SOMETHING HUH??? not!!!! Thanks, Randy Guynn Performance American Style - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/Filter_INFORMATION/air_filter-1.jpg http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/Filter_INFORMATION/air_filter-2.jpg SJ Jeeps: 360/401: TS-23 258: TS-12 retail $21.50 XJ Jeeps: 4.0L/2.5L('87 and up): TS-29 retail $29.95 WJ Jeeps: 4.7L: TS-104 retail $47.50 DieselBenz: typical S1118 or S1680 retail $32.50 or $39.85 http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/ order 1-800-956-5695 cust# 283461 Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:31:55 +0000 From: Machinedoc-at-attbi.com Subject: fsj: Re: Selectrac, Quadratrac, etc.] Hi Michael, Group, Not to be nit picky, but 87' thru 91' had NP229's, not 228's. The NP 228 was only a one year deal, 86'. Curtis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:29:29 +0000 From: Machinedoc-at-attbi.com Subject: fsj: Re: Fwd: About the California SUV tax Hi Guys, I will try to poke my 2 cents worth here and try to get to excited in the process. The reason for the requirement to register your un-used vehicles in California is to document who owns what assets. The $5.00 filing fee is so that you are paying for the state to keep track of what you own, regardless of what you use. The one year time frame to come into compliance combined with misleading information about the program (The notice about the program came on the back of a small leaflet with DUI stats or a seatbelt reminder enclosed with your registration renewal for any currently registered vehicles .) and a massive increase in late penalties (Correct me if I am wrong, %75 for the first 5 days, %100 up to 30 days, %150 or more of registration fees due after 60 days.) were designed to reduce the existing number or older vehicles while at the same time increasing revenues for DMV. Another interesting thing to note is that the state authorized the Franchise Tax Board (State version of the IRS) to be the collection agancy for deliquent DMV accounts including people that moved in state and did not get the notice as well as those that moved out of state and did not properly inform the state of all your vehicles relocations. Any of you guys that follow California motor vehicle law and want to look it up need only to compare a DMV code book from 1990 and 1994. The early one states very clearly that "No vehicle registration fees are due for any vehicle that is not driven or parked on any public road" (Paraphrased). The real funny thing about this law is that they just eliminated it. Normally when they eliminate a law they make a reference to it being gone and sometimes even why. This particular one was just eliminated like they were hoping that nobody would notice. California is truely leading the revolution for individual states becoming the most complete and effective "Big Brother" out there. Sad thing about here in Washington is that our current leaders listen to California's program claims and self boasting successes (Without regard to truthfulness) as if it's gospel and sometimes try to blindly follow along. Luckily for most of us they usually only give it half the effort of CA. So while we get some of CA's bad decisions we generally get them watered down. Washington members, you ever wonder why we need to show our drivers license and they need to make sure they have the correct number on file just to pay the registration on your car? It is about "property rights" and unfortunately we are losing more and more of them every day. Curtis MFSJC, This affects all FSJ's in CA and possibly, in the future, all FSJ's in this country. > Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:31:18 -0700 > From: john > Subject: fsj: Re: Fwd: About the California SUV tax > > agreed... this has to do with "property rights". > john > > At 12:51 PM 7/10/2002 -0500, Jim Hoffman wrote: > >John, > > Now I'm in Wisconsin but I always thought the whole intent of > >registering a car was to pay "your fair share" to maintain the > >roads, etc. If the car never leaves my property I should NOT > >be required to register the vehicle! Just IMHO... > >Jim/ > >Oconomowoc, WI > >john wrote: > > > At 10:25 AM 7/10/2002 -0700, jerry wrote: > > > *** The legislature changed the bill # over a holiday weekend & pushed it > > > through. Same kind of crap they pulled with the "old-cars non-op" law. > > > ( That made you have to register cars even if they were under a tarp in the > > > garage. Only $5/year, but people forget - intent being to force old > > cars to > > > the crusher ) > > > - Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:46:10 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: np242 vs np228 At 02:30 PM 7/11/2002 -0400, fsj-digest wrote: >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:15:22 +1000 >From: "Veijo Phillips" >Subject: fsj: RE: Re: Selectrac, Quadratrac, etc. >So does this mean I could replace the 229(8) in my FSJ with a 242 >easily????? >Wouldn't be bad to have some hummer technology integrated somewhere! >Veijo no, not easily... the NP242 won't bolt up to your trans without an adapter (curtis and I may market the one we came up with for my 4.0L conversion). AND, you'll need to either modify your driveshafts and possibly get a slip-yoke eliminator.... it could be a very expensive conversion... and I'm not sure but I'd think that the NP228/9 is stronger then the 242... john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:39:32 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: fsj: OURAY - YOU CAN STILL REGISTER! Sorry for the crosspost. We have decided to accept Late Registrations for the Ouray Full Size Jeep Invasion starting now. http://www.cfsja.org/2002/cgi-bin/regform.cgi The base registration fee for late registration is $60. Send your payment in postmarked July 20 or prior or it will be returned to you! For those that are not sure if they can make it, we will accept walk-up registrations in Ouray during regular sign-in times. === PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING VERY CAREFULLY === - - Registration is open again; you may update your trail selections, register, or print your new invoice until July 20. - - Old invoices with a base registration of $40 or $50 are now INVALID. Base registration fee for late registration is $60 IF your payment is postmarked July 20 or earlier. - - If your payment is postmarked July 21 or later, we'll return your check and you can do a walk-up registration. - - Walk-up registrations will have a base fee of $70 and, despite the fact that we will try to make extra BBQ tickets and T-shirts available for sale, there is NO guarantee on availability!!! Filling in the registration form in no way reserves t-shirts or BBQ tickets. Only your payment reserves these items. - - Trail runs are on a first PAID first served basis. Your chance of getting on a trail run is slim to none if you wait until you arrive to pay. We cannot guarantee you'll get your picks even if you pay by July 20. - - If you don't get to go on a trail run one day, you can still have fun in Ouray or Silverton or just hook up with some other people and run trails in a small group. Please send in your payments ASAP. Thank you, CFSJA Invasion Planning Group - --- 86 GW "Troubled Child" 360/NP208/3"exh/4"lift/31"BFGAT 85 GW "Backhoe" 360/3"exh/2"lift/31"BFGATKO/Lockrite ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:13:07 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: transfer case clarification and axle info At 02:30 PM 7/11/2002 -0400, fsj-digest wrote: >John or anyone else: I have been watching this thread but am still a little >confused as to the different xfr cases. I am looking at 80s GWs. Does the >82 have the older NP229(8) as noted above? Can anyone please break down the >model year changes for GWs in the late 70s and 80s? Thanks and sorry for >asking for repeat info. Ok, for the record, the only transfer cases used in the SJ model Jeep are as follows: Dana 20 (aka spicer in early years) Borg Warner Quadratrac BW-13xx NP219 - Quadratrac (80-82) NP229/228 - Selectrac (83 to the end) NP208 - Command Trac (80-87 - Jtrucks, 80-83 Cherokee, rare GW use) that's it... the NP231,242,203, Dana 300 and other xfr cases were not used on the main product lines of the J-truck, Cherokee or Wagoneer. It is possible that the 3/4T and 1 T custom, lease or gov't versions used something else. ;) btw, found this page on axle width: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Axles-Driveline/axle-dimensions.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:55:12 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: fsj: Re: Oil pressure/relief spring/cam bearings Thanks! I was going to check the clearance on the pump like my tech manual says but haven't got to that part yet. The lifter part bothers me. I've already put the intake manifold on and I don't want to remove it now. If I remove one of the rockers and blow down the lifter rod, would that be a good test? - --Vince '81 Wagoneer - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tesar Landon-r16884" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 10:13 AM Subject: fsj: Oil pressure/relief spring/cam bearings > Vince, suggest you read through.... > > http://www.froadin.com/vblite/showthread.php3?threadid=71 > > the suggestions are: > > that new lifters may not feed oil to the pushrods/rockers, > > cam bearings can be improperly installed and block oil movement, > > a new pressure relief spring is a good idea. > > checking the oil pump housing for wear is a good idea. > > - Landon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:06:59 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: fsj: OFF TOPIC : Great WorldCom Story This is a message I got from my sister in-law who works for MCI. I know you've all heard of Worldcom! - --Vince '81 Wagoneer All, This is a great message about WorldCom. Please share with your bays! WHO IS WORLDCOM ? by: fleasless_in_dallas 07/03/02 09:16 pm Msg: 1692 of 2065 1 recommendation What IS Worldcom??? by: tarnished_knight2000 [ Ignore ] (41/M) Long-Term Sentiment: Buy 07/03/02 02:55 pm Msg: 440967 of 442452 Just Who and What is WorldCom? It seems to me that a lot of focus on WorldCom these days is concentrated on a small handful of individuals who according to the press, at best expressed poor judgment, at worst, acted in a criminal manner that has led to investigations that will have a long term negative impact on a truly great company. Granted John Sidgmore, Scott Sullivan and Bernie Ebbers are in the spotlight right now, and we all know it is going to be very hot under those lights. Aside from these individuals, who is WorldCom? We should also ask what is WorldCom? Over the last two weeks, I have listened to media pundits who think they have a bead on WorldCom, but I have yet to hear any one get it right, or even come close. WorldCom isn't a rag tag group of accountants who have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar. They aren't a deceiving cadre of people out to hide in the mire of accounting gobbledygook. WorldCom is so much more. What WorldCom is: It is a two Frame Relay networks made of 3000+ Frame Switches. It is two ATM networks made of 3000+ ATM switches. It is a Internet Backbone made of 1500 Juniper M40/M160/Cisco GSR Routers. It is thousands of access switches and routers to the Internet Backbone. It is 50% of all internet traffic globally. It is 2500 Internet Access PoPs. It is ALL of the Metropolitan Area Access points where all Internet Service Providers Peer. The WorldCom MAEs carry virtually all off the Internet Traffic in the World. It is hundreds of massive voice swithes carrying millions upon milliions of calls every day. It is a SONET network made of 10s of Thousands of SONET elements in 128 counties. It is millions of square feet of hosting facilities capable of holding 375,000 servers. It is dial access for 50% of all AOL traffic. It is dial access for virtually all of Compuserv traffic. It is millions of T-1 to OC-48 leased line circuits. It is 30 Billion dollars in Annual Revenue. It is a company with 3.5 billion shares out on the street. It is 103 Billion, that's right, 103 Billion dollars in capital assets. That is 10,300 Times bigger than Yipes! That is more than the GNP of most countries in the World. Who WorldCom is: It is 80,000, change that, 63,000 dedicated professionals who bring the most reliable SONET, Fame Relay, ATM, Internet and Hosting services to the market place. It is 20 million long distance voice customers. It is 20 million AOL and CompuServ Dial Access customers. It is 300,000 Internet Access Customers. It is 100s of thousands of ATM and Frame Relay customer sites. It is 100s of millions of voice customers passing through local Bell Companies using WorldCom SONET rings. It is 75 million users and computer systems accessing the Internet. It is individuals who have lead the research efforts that have brought ATM, Frame Relay and the Internet itself to our doorsteps. It is the heart and soul of virtually every person in the United States who has placed a phone call or sent an Internet Instant message to a loved one. Everything about WorldCom is tangible in a huge way. WorldCom has global impact. It is not a simple spigot that can be turned off. It cannot go away. Contrary to some of the opinions of the media hyenas, the World will not be a better place if WorldCom goes away. Many of their comments simply prove that they just don't get it. They don't get who or what WorldCom is. Pass this along. Maybe, in some way, it will help them understand. We all need to help WorldCom get through this. WorldCom is a good thing...pass the word. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:21:21 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: fsj: Wisdom for the Dipstick Not me....or that deputy on the Dukes of Hazzard......the one on my old 360! Yeah, the age old question......How the heck do you get the thing off or more importantly, installed onto another engine? So far, I haven't damaged mine but it sure doesn't look like it is coming out of there easily. My technical manual conveniently omitted this operation. Anyone have a prescription for success with dipsticks or is it hopeless? - --Vince ''81 Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:38:00 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: factory AMC 4 bbl intakes A: This info is from a top AMC guy: From: Randy Guynn To: danritz-at-coredcs.com, mail-at-amc-list.com Subject: Intake manifold part Dan, If that is the casting number, it will be ONE number off from the part number. There is basically 5 different cast iron AMC factory 4 barrel intakes. #1, standard 1967-69 models. The intake bolts dip way down and are hard to get at right by the carb in the center 4 bolts it will have 4 round holes on the carb flange #2,1970 & 71 standard 4 barrel intakes, it has the center 4 bolt holes higher and easier to get at than 69 & earlier models, it too will have 4 round holes on carb flange #3, 1970 Rebel machine intaske, it has to ovel holes on the carb flange and it was not always on Rebels, it also came on 1970 & 1971 big engines in the Ambassadors and on some Jeep truck models. #4, 1973 and later spread bore 4 barrel intakes for spread bore motorcraft carbs #5, 1973 & later Spread bore 4 barrel intakes with EGR provision. That just about sums up cast iron AMC 4 barrel intakes. The casting number IS NOT the part number. If this is a Rebel Machine intake, the casting number is ONE off of the part number. Give a look at the intake, you should be able to tell what it is by the info I provided. Thanks, Randyu Guynn performance American Style ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:54:01 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: Selectrac, Quadratrac, etc.] A: I added a bit and a few things that were missing, but pertinent (like std trannies) From: Michael Shimniok Subject: Re: [fsj: Re: Selectrac, Quadratrac, etc.] "Stephen D. Thompson" wrote: > John or anyone else: I have been watching this thread but am still a > little confused as to the different xfr cases. I am looking at 80s > GWs. Does the 82 have the older NP229(8) as noted above? Can anyone > please break down the model year changes for GWs in the late 70s and > 80s? Thanks and sorry for asking for repeat info. It's easier than you think. Ignoring the early years, 1973-1979 were Borg Warner 1339 "QuadraTrac" cases (except std trans which were all Dana 20 and some TH400s had the D20 as well till late '74). From 1980-1991 they used New Process cases: (and 727 or 999 automatic. All std trans T18A, T176 or T-5 {6 cyl only} came with NP208) NP208, 219, 228, 229. BW1339 QuadraTrac = full time, 4wd only, viscous coupler hi/lo or lock hi/lo (08/79 and earlier) NP208 CT = part time, locked in 4hi and 4lo NP219 QT = full time, 4wd only, 4hi with viscous coupler, 4hi lock, 4lo lock NP228 ST = full time, 2wd/4wd, 4hi differential, 4lo lock {no viscous coupler} NP229 ST = full time, 2wd/4wd, 4hi viscous coupler, 4lo lock In the 1980's and 1990's it breaks down like this: 1980-1982 = NP208 or NP219 (208 = Commandtrac or 219 = New Process Quadratrac) 1983-1985 = NP208 or NP229 (Commandtrac with locking hubs or Selectrac with vacuum front axle) 1986 = NP208* or NP228 (part time 4x4 Commandtrac with locking hubs or full time capable Selectrac with solid hubs and no viscous coupler) 1987-1991 = NP208* or NP228 (Commandtrac with locking hubs or Selectrac with solid hubs) * the only NP208's I know of after say 1983 were in special govt order FSJs such as those ordered around 87 for the forest service which also came with manual doors and bench front seat. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 05:59:23 -0400 From: "B. C." Subject: fsj: Woody Worries Greetings To The FSJ World! Having owned the USS GW for almost six years it has occurred to me that I have never done anything to treat / protect its woody wall paper. I remember years ago seeing the station wagons of the 70's that had wall papered sides turned white by careless owners who had attempted to use regular auto body wax to polish the wall paper. Yuck, I do not want to make that mistake. Now it appears to me that either people became really smart in the mid 80's, or the new generation of wall paper was better prepared for road usage; because now all of the skinny vans, and GW's from the mid 80's through today look pretty decent in regards to their woody walls. So perhaps they have made the stuff more durable? Well my question is what product is specifically designed to polish, and protect the wallpaper on the late 80's, early 90's GW wallpaper??? Until The Next Dimension, Admiral "Coluch." Starfleet Headquarters Ohio Post END TRANSMISSION.................................... ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1689 **************************