From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Aug 17 22:01:21 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, August 18 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1725 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Today's Rez Report Refsj: Today's Rez Report Re: Refsj: Today's Rez Report fsj: Re: FSJ Picnic - Ouray 2002 fsj: Problem FOUND - Rez---errected fsj: Re: Problem Found Re: fsj: Re: Problem Found FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:55:19 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: Re: fsj: Today's Rez Report Nope, this is a tough one. Here is how my diagnosis went: Rez was running Sunday. I parked it in the driveway and on Monday morning put the CB radio in. My daughter and I started packing for Ouray. Truck was pretty much 70% packed up. Went to start it up. Starter runs OK but it didn't start. 1. My original diagnosis was to pull a plug. No spark at the plugs. 2. So I pulled the coil wire and tried to get it to arc. No spark at the coil wire. 3. So I ran diagnostics on the coil. Coil checks out OK. I replaced the coil anyway. 4. Then I ran through all the ignition diagnostics in the 1981 Jeep tech manual I have. All wiring checks out. All components check out. Battery voltage seems to run about 9-10 volts but the manual doesn't specify, it just says "battery voltage". Battery has new cables, new cable to starter, new ground strap (done during engine rebuild). 5. Found a crushed wire under the distributor cap, replaced the whole pickup coil. Still won't start. 6. Replaced solenoid and ignition module. Still won't start. 7. Did diagnostics on the system again. Everything checks out. Pulled all the wiring out of the protective sheath, traced all wires by hand. Resistance wire checks out just fine at 1.35 ohm. No bubbled wiring or anything that looks suspicious. Wiring actually looks pretty good. After manipulating the wiring - tried to start again - still won't start. 8. Starting tracing wiring under the dash. Found the column ignition switch burned up pretty good on a major spade terminal. Seems like it has been this way for a long time. Replaced switch. Still won't run. 9. Did a diagnostic on the control module. It may be bad. I'm going to see if I can get another one and try that. If that don't work, I'm about out of ideas. I know a good shop in Geneva, IL and I may have to have it towed over there and let them work some magic on Rez. I have a theory that the column switch may have been cross circuiting and burned out my ignition controllers the minute I put them on. We shall see.... - --Vince '81 Wagoneer - ----- Original Message ----- From: "JeepNut" To: "Vince Orr" ; "_FSJ List" Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 11:35 PM Subject: Re: fsj: Today's Rez Report > MAN! that is a bugger... > Have you pulled a plug to see if it is firing blue sparks? > I hesistate to ask, but I don't recall you mentioning > that... > If the plugs are firing a nice bright blue, the next thing > would be to come up with a brilliant idea to determine if > the fuel is actually being delivered in the cylinders. > If there is fire in the hole AND fuel, it's just got to > start and run for at least a second or two unless the timing > chain is broken or something... > > Maybe you should pull all the plugs, shoot an eyedropper > full of gas into each one and put them back in and see what > happens when you fire it...? > > I'm going to try to dig out the notes for those that have > asked, but it may be tomorrow before I can get it done, but > it sounds like you have covered the bases re: the resistor > wire, etc... but I think a lot of us are dying to hear the > end of this saga... it's a weird one... > > Vince Orr wrote: > > > > WELLLLLL, > > > > Not having any luck still....ignition system is still not working. All > > diagnostics say system is fine. Started looking under the dash and found that > > the switch at the bottom of the column was melted. Soooo I managed to find a > > new switch and put that on. Crossed my fingers and you guessed it! Nothing. > > Just runs the starter. Distributor seems to be turning, diagnostic verifies > > that the pickup coil is working. > > Near as I can tell, all components are working. I'm going to test the > > brainbox again tomorrow. I'm starting to think it may be bad, even though it > > is new out of the box. > > Today, I took apart the wiring harness. All wires look real good. I traced > > both the resistor type wires and they look fine. I tested the one for the > > coil and it checked out with continuity and read exactly 1.35 ohms like it is > > supposed to. I don't think that is the problem. > > > > Really running out of ideas at this point. > > --Vince > > '81 Wagoneer > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > '87 Street Comanche #24/100 > '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only > one... > '92 Cherokee > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:58:49 +0000 From: Machinedoc-at-attbi.com Subject: Refsj: Today's Rez Report Hi Vince, I normally don't recommend this to anyone, but to help you quickly return you to the road until you have more time to plot the fate of Rez I offer this suggestion. First, do you have power to the + side of the coil? (The resistor wire and the one with it.) If you do and you need to get running you can pull the distributor and replace it with a points version for a 74' wag/chero with a 360. Should be under $50. Just be mindful of the points until you go back to electronic. I normally wouldn't suggest this temporary fix to anyone (Mainly because people forget about the points.), but you have had so much trouble with Rez lately. Electrical stuff is just much easier to trace when you are not stressed out just trying to get it running. When you are more relaxed and know that Rez will run when you are done playing with it then you can trace it in an orderly manner until you find the problem. When that time comes try checking in this order; Do you have power at the coil ("Bat" or +) with the key in the on position? (Rocky shows 6.5+ volts sitting/11.5V running) If no power, trace the wiring back to the ignition switch. carefully unplug and check the connector where the wires pass through the firewall, if you have power, continue on. Do you have power to the brain box? Unplug it and probe the harness side connector. No? Trace it back to the switch. Yes? Continue on. Does the distributor pick up function properly? (Check the book for spec's) Yes? Check the wires for continuity and grounding to the coil and to the brainbox while unplugged at both ends. Visually check the wires and connectors for damage. If all checks out so far, check the coil to be sure it is within spec's. If not replace it. If the coil is good, have the brainbox checked or replace it. If all of this fails to turn up an answer or get it going, stick with the points distributor. I hope this helps. Good luck, Curtis From: "Vince Orr" Subject: fsj: Today's Rez Report WELLLLLL, Not having any luck still....ignition system is still not working. All diagnostics say system is fine. Started looking under the dash and found that the switch at the bottom of the column was melted. Soooo I managed to find a new switch and put that on. Crossed my fingers and you guessed it! Nothing. Just runs the starter. Distributor seems to be turning, diagnostic verifies that the pickup coil is working. Near as I can tell, all components are working. I'm going to test the brainbox again tomorrow. I'm starting to think it may be bad, even though it is new out of the box. Today, I took apart the wiring harness. All wires look real good. I traced both the resistor type wires and they look fine. I tested the one for the coil and it checked out with continuity and read exactly 1.35 ohms like it is supposed to. I don't think that is the problem. Really running out of ideas at this point. - - --Vince '81 Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:47:32 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: Re: Refsj: Today's Rez Report > I normally don't recommend this to anyone, (snip) A: No problem, I'm listening to everyone and everything right now....:) > > First, do you have power to the + side of the coil? > (The resistor wire and the one with it.) A: Yes, Diagnostic routine was run on the coil, I replaced the coil and diagnostic on the new coil checked out too. > > If you do and you need to get running you can pull the > distributor and replace it with a points version for a > 74' wag/chero with a 360. Should be under $50. Just be > mindful of the points until you go back to electronic. A: I've considered this too, Jim Blair suggested it. However, there is no serious reason for me to do this, Rez is my project car and I have other transportation (my '99 TJ) > > I normally wouldn't suggest this temporary fix to anyone > (Mainly because people forget about the points.), but > you have had so much trouble with Rez lately. > Electrical stuff is just much easier to trace when you > are not stressed out just trying to get it running. > When you are more relaxed and know that Rez will run > when you are done playing with it then you can trace it > in an orderly manner until you find the problem. When > that time comes try checking in this order; > > Do you have power at the coil ("Bat" or +) with the key > in the on position? > (Rocky shows 6.5+ volts sitting/11.5V running) A: I believe that is what I have too. Can't check when running though or I wouldn't have this problem! Ha Ha :) > If no power, trace the wiring back to the ignition > switch. carefully unplug and check the connector where > the wires pass through the firewall, if you have power, > continue on. > > Do you have power to the brain box? Unplug it and probe > the harness side connector. No? Trace it back to the > switch. Yes? Continue on. A: Yes, power in all places, per specifications. > > Does the distributor pick up function properly? (Check > the book for spec's) Yes? Check the wires for > continuity and grounding to the coil and to the brainbox > while unplugged at both ends. Visually check the wires and connectors for damage. A: Been there, done that. Pick up coil registers small volt fluctuations that can be picked up through the wire to the ICU. All connectors OK, all wires on the 4 wire connector are showing 0 ohms continuity and look fine. Resistor wire shows 1.35 ohms on the meter like it should. Wires to the solenoid are showing perfect continuity and look good too, no corrosion anywhere. > > If all checks out so far, check the coil to be sure it > is within spec's. If not replace it. A: As mentioned earlier, coil checked out on technical diagnostic but I replaced it anyway and the new coil checked out too. > > If the coil is good, have the brainbox checked or > replace it. A: Am leaving in a few minutes to get ANOTHER ICU to try. Already have three. My original one, the one that I had put in about 4 years ago, and the brand new one I put in about 4 days ago. I'm taking them with me to the parts store to see if they can be tested there. > > If all of this fails to turn up an answer or get it > going, stick with the points distributor. A: If I can't solve it with a new ICU, then I think I'm going to have it towed to some experts I know in Geneva, IL. I give up at that point. Otherwise, I'm considering upgrading to an aftermarket distributor and electronic ignition system. I have a theory that my ignition switch could have been shorted and blowing out my ICU's. Otherwise, I'm flummoxed! Thanks Curtis! Really appreciate all the help from everyone! Keeps my brain stimulated. - --Vince - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: "Vince Orr" Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 12:58 PM Subject: Refsj: Today's Rez Report > Hi Vince, > > I normally don't recommend this to anyone, but to help > you quickly return you to the road until you have more > time to plot the fate of Rez I offer this suggestion. > > First, do you have power to the + side of the coil? > (The resistor wire and the one with it.) > > If you do and you need to get running you can pull the > distributor and replace it with a points version for a > 74' wag/chero with a 360. Should be under $50. Just be > mindful of the points until you go back to electronic. > > I normally wouldn't suggest this temporary fix to anyone > (Mainly because people forget about the points.), but > you have had so much trouble with Rez lately. > Electrical stuff is just much easier to trace when you > are not stressed out just trying to get it running. > When you are more relaxed and know that Rez will run > when you are done playing with it then you can trace it > in an orderly manner until you find the problem. When > that time comes try checking in this order; > > Do you have power at the coil ("Bat" or +) with the key > in the on position? > (Rocky shows 6.5+ volts sitting/11.5V running) > If no power, trace the wiring back to the ignition > switch. carefully unplug and check the connector where > the wires pass through the firewall, if you have power, > continue on. > > Do you have power to the brain box? Unplug it and probe > the harness side connector. No? Trace it back to the > switch. Yes? Continue on. > > Does the distributor pick up function properly? (Check > the book for spec's) Yes? Check the wires for > continuity and grounding to the coil and to the brainbox > while unplugged at both ends. Visually check the wires > and connectors for damage. > > If all checks out so far, check the coil to be sure it > is within spec's. If not replace it. > > If the coil is good, have the brainbox checked or > replace it. > > If all of this fails to turn up an answer or get it > going, stick with the points distributor. > > I hope this helps. > Good luck, > > Curtis > > > From: "Vince Orr" > Subject: fsj: Today's Rez Report > > WELLLLLL, > > Not having any luck still....ignition system is still not working. All > diagnostics say system is fine. Started looking under the dash and found that > the switch at the bottom of the column was melted. Soooo I managed to find a > new switch and put that on. Crossed my fingers and you guessed it! Nothing. > Just runs the starter. Distributor seems to be turning, diagnostic verifies > that the pickup coil is working. > Near as I can tell, all components are working. I'm going to test the > brainbox again tomorrow. I'm starting to think it may be bad, even though it > is new out of the box. > Today, I took apart the wiring harness. All wires look real good. I traced > both the resistor type wires and they look fine. I tested the one for the > coil and it checked out with continuity and read exactly 1.35 ohms like it is > supposed to. I don't think that is the problem. > > Really running out of ideas at this point. > - --Vince > '81 Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:50:43 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: fsj: Re: FSJ Picnic - Ouray 2002 Thanks for all the pictures John. Even though Rez died on me before I could pull out of the driveway, this is the next best thing! Rez probably wasn't ready for this trip anyway. I'll work the bugs out and get some more upgrades installed and my luck will be much better next time. I'm just glad I didn't break down on the road........ - --Vince - ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: <1FSJ-at-yahoogroups.com>; "full size jeep list" ; ; <1FSJ-at-yahoogroups.com>; Cc: "john meister" Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 12:16 AM Subject: fsj: FSJ Picnic - Ouray 2002 > working on uploading pictures... > http://www.wagoneers.com/ouray/Aug16-Ouray-PICNIC/ > > Will need help identifying who is who later. I have > the vehicle numbers and types and who won what awards, > but need to identify the people. > > Will email the list later... > > john meister > from ouray, colorado > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** john-at-wagoneers.com via PINE on Linux ** (plain text please!) > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. > ...and remember, leaving life without Jesus just isn't recommended... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:25:15 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: fsj: Problem FOUND - Rez---errected Well I went and got a new ICU, bolted it up and guess what? Rez still wouldn't start!!!!! I got to thinking about my answer to Curtis earlier today.......So I went back to the beginning - the very beginning of the problem.......and here is a key point....Rez was running on Sunday just fine. Monday I put the CB radio in. Later I determined that the engine wouldn't start......... Have the rest of you figured this out yet? There was a connection. Now let this be a lesson to everyone.......if you make an electrical addition to your vehicle and afterwards the vehicle doesn't run due to an electrical problem.......UNDO what you just did and try again..... I traced the wiring on my CB and found that I had inadvertantly hooked the ground for the radio to the "black" wire of my tachometer......You know, the tach I have mounted to my steering column......You know, the "aftermarket" tachometer?.....You know, the wire that is spliced into the tach wire going to the ignition coil? And of course the CB radio worked just great! And of course this "soaked up" the signal to the coil.... Even though I could determine that the pickup coil was working fine....it was not putting out a huge signal. That should have tipped me off. But the tech manual doesn't tell you how many volts it should put out, it just says "look for volt fluctuations". Well, I picked up fluctuations on my volt meter........on the lowest setting. Oh Yeah.....I had power to the coil etc, etc... and I could determine that the pickup coil had activity....it's just that my CB radio was soaking up most of the signal so the ICU was basically ignoring what was going on. I've come to the realization that the wire off the negative terminal - the tach terminal - is VERY important. After disconnecting my CB, my pretty new AMC blue engine with the chrome valve covers and chrome air cleaner with the K&N filter element......you know, the engine that doesn't leak a drop anymore.....the engine that doesn't even have 100 miles on it yet.... Well, it practically jumped off the mounts to start...... I missed the FSJ invasion because of this.........my daughter missed a week long trip with her dad......I've been working like a mad man during my precious vacation to try to fix this in time to drive over for a day or two of the invasion......I'm an agonized, emotionally disturbed, shell of a man. Only to find the problem on the last day of the event..... Pardon me while I go shoot myself in the head! After that, I'm going to start drinking heavily...... Thanks to all of you who helped and agonized with me through this episode. It just proves that most problems that have no easy explanation are usually pretty simple. And Vince is his own worst enemy..... I could sure use some FSJ buddies over here in Chicago to point out my more stupid blunders...... I just wish I'd thought to reverse my radio install about 4 days ago..... But oh no, it couldn't be THAT simple. I always make things too complicated. And of course my FSJ widow told me on Monday to check my radio install.......My answer? "No Honey, that couldn't be the problem......go back and work on your quilt..." And my next move was to have it towed to a garage to be fixed........ Well, I'm off to pick up a bottle of Glenmorangie...... Later Guys! And thanks again! - --Vince '81 Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:56:45 -0500 From: "Vince Orr" Subject: fsj: Re: Problem Found Great idea! All I can say is that I was in a big hurry and probably shouldn't have been working on the Rez. My mind wasn't in the "zone" at the time. I was thinking about the trip and not so much about what I was doing. The hot line to my radio has a fuse as I'm using one of those quick detatch mounts. Man, that new whip antenna mounted on Scotty's bumper really works good! Plus, my radio has the weather alert feature and really pulls in the signal now. This afternoon, I started up the Rez, got it to operating temp, re-timed the engine, and fixed the radio (correctly this time). Runs really good now with all the new components! I figure I'll take it out on a road trip tomorrow and put some highway miles on the engine. - --Vince - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 4:51 PM Subject: Problem Found > Having "been there and done that" with respect to overlooking the obvious (or > what should've been the obvious), I can empathize. That said, I definitely > would've given the CB its own fused power supply and tied it to its own frame > ground rather than "piggybacking" on anything else for either power or > ground. > > FYI, I got a bussed fuse block at an RV supply store, mounted it on the > driver's side fender, and ran a fused feed to it with about 10 gauge wire > directly from the ammeter to provide always hot, fused power to anything I > added (such as the auxiliary "cigarette lighter" socket into which I can plug > the cell phone or an emergency light). > > Bruce Wilson > 84 GW > Des Moines, IA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:23:15 -0400 From: Mike Polkki Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Problem Found I'll tell u one thing from all of this Im going to put a tach in my truck soon and maybe would have done the same thing in the future so I want to thank you for keeping us informed on all of this. and don't worry By the way it sounds the guys in Ouray had so much fun that it's not going to be another 40 years to have another FSJ meeting! Mike vorr-at-attbi.com wrote: >Great idea! All I can say is that I was in a big hurry and probably >shouldn't have been working on the Rez. My mind wasn't in the "zone" at the >time. I was thinking about the trip and not so much about what I was doing. > >The hot line to my radio has a fuse as I'm using one of those quick detatch >mounts. Man, that new whip antenna mounted on Scotty's bumper really works >good! Plus, my radio has the weather alert feature and really pulls in the >signal now. > >This afternoon, I started up the Rez, got it to operating temp, re-timed the >engine, and fixed the radio (correctly this time). Runs really good now >with all the new components! I figure I'll take it out on a road trip >tomorrow and put some highway miles on the engine. >--Vince > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 4:51 PM >Subject: Problem Found > > >>Having "been there and done that" with respect to overlooking the obvious >> >(or > >>what should've been the obvious), I can empathize. That said, I >> >definitely > >>would've given the CB its own fused power supply and tied it to its own >> >frame > >>ground rather than "piggybacking" on anything else for either power or >>ground. >> >>FYI, I got a bussed fuse block at an RV supply store, mounted it on the >>driver's side fender, and ran a fused feed to it with about 10 gauge wire >>directly from the ammeter to provide always hot, fused power to anything I >>added (such as the auxiliary "cigarette lighter" socket into which I can >> >plug > >>the cell phone or an emergency light). >> >>Bruce Wilson >>84 GW >>Des Moines, IA ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1725 **************************