From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Sep 1 14:35:27 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, September 1 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1737 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: '82 Wagoneer in Mexico fsj: modified-schmodified... fsj: BATTERY THEORY - a website... fsj: administrivia: notes on using this list Re: fsj: FSJ_Modified.. Sci FI or a new trend? Re: fsj: Re: Re: gatherings east of here... Re: fsj: I might have this figured out FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 20:25:27 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: '82 Wagoneer in Mexico At 08:37 PM 8/31/2002 -0500, JUAN RUBEN "JUAN RUBEN" wrote: >hello [john], my name is Josi Luis I am from Mexico, you know buy a jeep >[wagoneer] 1982, automatic transmission, that your will help me, requests >you of favor if I [pudiereas] send pictures of the interior and of the >motor, for me could give me an idea and could get some parts that are >necessary you for so equip it how it is due, you [agradesco] ahead of time >for all that you could send me. .gracias greetings Juan, There is a list on yahoo for FSJ parts. I'm sure we'll be able to help you there. :) We might even find someone who is able to communicate in Spanish as well, making it a bit easier for you. :) BTW, remember the Sylvester Stallone movie "Cobra"? The car is for sale: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1855667661 john ========================================================================== For Full Size Jeep help see: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech - technical information http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs - pictures of FSJ's http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/FSJ-list.html - FSJ list on digest.net http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/digests - list digests more info at: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/FSJ-info.html see also yahoogroups.com: 1FSJ and FSJparts ========================================================================== Snohomish, Washington, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... remember, leaving life with out Jesus isn't recommended... ========================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 20:44:23 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: modified-schmodified... Personally I think RJ is trying to make things too granular. We'll soon have groups for discussions on lugnuts, oil filler tubes, dipstick openings, shift levers, steering wheel adjustments, rear window problems and so on... :) There are too many lists now... lost count of how many there are. I'm being bad and posting it to the FSJ list on digest and RJ's 1fsj list... ;) I rarely post to the original list that I helped start because I never look at it... it's massive... we feared that happening when we started it... but it's doing ok as far as I know. The FSJ parts list was a good idea, and even the 1FSJ list, a place for RJ to post George Carlin jokes... :) The regional FSJ lists aren't a bad idea, but they haven't really worked all that well. It's hard to keep up with all the lists. What I like to see is mostly on topic technical discussions posted to fsj on digest.net so it's preserved on my server and on digest.net. It HELPS people. Notice the two emails today from folks searching through the archives looking for repair info. When we figure something out we should write it up and email it to the list(s), even if you cross-post. Cross-posting solid technical information helps the FSJ cause greatly, recommend using BCC so folks that aren't on the other list(s) don't bounce messages. :) RJ, sorry I wasn't able to get back to you earlier... I got rounded up for shutter duty and have been up on a ladder attaching window shutters... :) Figured you might not like a ring back late at night... Anyway, if you want to create another list, go for it... I think the only reason I'm active on the 1fsj list at all is because I sort of inherited it from you... ;) One thing about life, everything is subject to change without notice... :( I miss the early days of the FSJ list... I miss Joe Sego... thinking about it at the BBQ I almost started crying... I knew Joe would have made it. The early days on the FSJ list were very special... I don't think we'll ever regain what we had prior to August 1997. If I had to do it over again I would not have moved the FSJ list to off-road.com. When I quit editing for them in November '97 the lists was never the same... :( The fsj list on digest.net had some of the flavor of the early list, but many of the charter members didn't move over there with me... guess I understand... it was an ugly mess... Well, I've got to write a final exam... y'all go out there and bid on that '50 Merc, ya hear? ;) later, john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 22:37:44 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: BATTERY THEORY - a website... EXCELLENT TECHNICAL INFO - partial info from: http://www.racingbatteries.com/theory.html BATTERY THEORY Battery Elements The lead - acid secondary cell used in aircraft batteries consists of positive plates made of lead peroxide (PbO2); negative plates of pure spongy lead (Pb); and a liquid known as electrolyte, consisting of a mixture of sulfuric acid (H2SO4) and water (H2O). The sulfuric acid and water are mixed in such quantities that the solution has a specific gravity of 1.275 to 1.300 for a fully charged battery. The specific gravity of a substance is defined as the ratio of the weight of a given volume of the substance to the weight of an equal volume of pure water at +4 C. Simplified lead-acid electrochemical reaction. Discharge >PbO2 + Pb + 2H2 SO4 = 2PbSO4 + 2H2O< Charge Chemical Reaction A chemical reaction takes place when a battery is delivering current. The sulfuric acid in the electrolyte breaks up into hydrogen ions (H2) carrying a positive charge, and sulfate ions (SO4) carrying a negative charge. An ion is an atom or molecule that is either positively or negatively charged. A positively charged ion has a deficiency of electrons, and a negatively charged ion has an excess of electrons. The SO4 ions combine with the lead in the plates and forms lead sulfate (PbSO4). At the same time, they give up their negative charge, thus creating an excess of electrons on the negative plate. The H2 ions go to the positive plate and combine with the oxygen of the lead peroxide (PbO2) forming water (H2O). During the process, they take electrons from the positive plate. The lead of the lead peroxide combines with some of the SO4 ions to form lead sulfate on the positive plate. The result of this reaction is that the positive plate has a deficiency of electrons and the negative plate has an excess of electrons. When the plates are connected together with an external conductor, the electrons from the negative plate flow to the positive plate. This process will continue until both plates are converted to lead sulfate and no further chemical action is possible. The battery is discharged. During the charging process, current is passed through the storage battery in the reverse direction. A direct current supply is applied to the battery with the positive pole connected to the positive plate and the negative pole connected to the negative plate. If the electromotive force (EMF) of the source is greater the EMF of the battery, this causes the current to flow in the reverse direction. The result is that the SO4 ions are driven back into solution where they combine with the H2 ions of the water, thus forming sulfuric acid. The plates then return to their original composition of lead peroxide and spongy lead. When this process is complete, the battery is charged. In as much as the sulfuric acid in the electrolyte is used up as the battery is discharged, and returned to the electrolyte as the battery is charged, a measurement of the specific gravity of the electrolyte will give a good indication of the state of charge in the battery. (this test is only used for flooded batteries) In flooded (vented) batteries the oxygen generated at the positive electrode when on charge escapes from the cell. Concurrently, at the negative electrode, hydrogen is generated from water and escapes from the cell. The overall result is the gassing of the cells and water loss. Therefore, flooded cells require periodic water replenishment. In valve-regulated (sealed) Recombinant Gas (RG) batteries like Reactor Power Cell, oxygen combines chemically with the lead at the negative electrode in the presence of H2SO4 to form lead sulfate and water. This oxygen recombination suppresses the generation of hydrogen at the negative electrode. Overall, there is no water loss during charging. A very small quantity of water may be lost as a result of self-discharge reactions, however, such loss is so small that no provision need be made for water replenishment. The battery cells have a pressure relief safety valve that may vent if the battery is overcharged. Reactor Power Cell valve-regulated lead-acid batteries (VRB) are recombinant gas (RG) batteries. The cells are sealed with pressure relief valves that open to relieve excessive pressure within the battery. The plates are sandwiched between layers of micro fibrous glass mat. Electrolyte is absorbed and held in place by the capillary potential of the fluid and the absorptive glass mat (AGM) fibers. The AGM, by design, is approximately 92% saturated with electrolyte. The remainder is filled with gas. This void space provides the channels by which oxygen travels from the positive to the negative plate during charging. The freshly generated gases, which are in their atomic state and very reactive (hence the name Reactor Power Cell), recombine rapidly and safely. The recombination passivates the negative slightly, reducing electrolysis and ultimately eliminating the need to add water. Because of the compressed construction, these batteries have a much lower internal resistance and thus provide greater starting power and faster recharging, particularly at cold temperatures, than comparable flooded batteries. Additionally, the AGM provides a much higher degree of support against shock and vibration than in the older flooded (vented) batteries. Reactor Power Cell batteries provide electrical performance comparable to nickel-cadmium aircraft batteries without the requirement of a temperature or current monitoring system. THERE'S MORE: http://www.racingbatteries.com/theory.html Just wanted to share part of this page... very good technical info. :) http://www.racingbatteries.com/charge.html http://www.racingbatteries.com/glossary.html john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 06:15:00 +0000 From: Richard Welty Subject: fsj: administrivia: notes on using this list Digest.Net mailing list "Meta FAQ" These general notes on using Digest.Net mailing lists are posted on the 1st and 15th of each month. This file may be found on the web at http://www.digest.net/general-notes.txt [last revised 5/1/02; removed list of spam strings, as i'm not the only one filtering on them -- rpw] Additional information on Digest.Net's spam policies may be found at http://www.digest.net/email-policy.html and http://www.digest.net/blocked.html Table of Contents 1. Why don't my postings go through? 2. Why can't I unsubscribe? 3. How do I post to the list? 4. Where are the archives? 5. What other lists are on digest.net? 6. Is there a web subscription form? 7. Why not move the lists to someplace like (egroups, topica,...)? 8. How do I contact the server adminstrator in an emergency? 9. What is Krusty Motorsports, anyway? The Meta-FAQ 1. Why don't my postings go through? There are several things that may interfere with postings making it to the list. a) Are you a member? Some read the ftp archives rather than receiving the list in email. Persons who read the list via email are automatically members, but readers of the FTP archive are not, and need to contact me (rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com) and get your name added to the list of "permitted senders". b) has your email address changed? some of you have had changes in your email address. your old address still works, and is still on the list, but your From: line shows a new address. this can happen for various reasons; you may have changed jobs or ISPs, and left a forward in place, or your IT staff may have fiddled with the email system. you will need to unsubscribe your old email address and subscribe the new one. this may require my involvement, if you can't figure out a way to get your old address off the list using the conventional majordomo commands. you can use the majordomo "which" command to probe for old addresses. send a message to majordomo-at-digest.net with one or more which commands in the body, one per line. to check for potential addresses for Fred Flinstone, formerly of bedrock.org, the following commands can be sent: which flintstone which bedrock note that the matches above might return any of the following addresses, if they appear in the list (in other words, you can use vagueness and incompleteness in your recollection as a tool): Fred.Flinstone-at-bedrock.org fflinstone-at-wilma.bedrock.org flintstonef-at-bedrock.com c) do you have more than one email address? if so, only the subscribed addresses can post, unless you contact me (see 1.a) above for relevant information) d) are you using (intentionally or accidentially) special "features" of your mail client? [this section is no longer operative, as the demime software now strips html, attachments, rich text format, etc. from postings automatically.] e) are your posts too large? there is a 10,000 character limit on posting sizes; this is done for various reasons. you can always split up large postings to get mail through. f) are you including majordomo commands at the start of your message? administrivia control is turned on; this is a trap for things like "unsubscribe" at the start of a message. try to avoid obvious majordomo commands in the subject and the first 10 lines, or misspell them in obvious ways (e.g. unzubscribe, 1ndex, h3lp, g3t, etc.) g) are you triggering spam traps? some things are red flags; for example, many phrases found commonly in spam are automatically blocked. h) are you using "funky" character sets? [7 bit restriction lifted experimentally on 8/2/00 -- film at 11] unfortunately, there are "issues" if i permit any character set other than old fashioned 7 level ASCII; therefore, you need to avoid national character sets that include various accents, umlauts, national currency characters such as the British pound symbol, etc. i) are you unintentionally including complete digests in your reply? You need to check and make sure you cut down replys to the minimal size; digests are between 20,000 and 25,000 characters in length, and if you include a complete digest in your reply, it clearly won't make the 10,000 character limit. By the way, this feature is intentional. j) Are you using a "bad" ISP or mail relay? See http://www.digest.net/email-policy.html for more information about Digest.Net policies about email. k) Is the error message you get back "User Unknown"? If so, you may be running afoul of spam control severices (again, see http://www.digest.net/email-policy.html) When these services register a hit, the error code 550 is returned. 550 is a generic code that many broken mail systems report as "user unknown". The "rejectlog" entries for the previous day's mail traffic on digest.net may be viewed at http://www.digest.net/rejectlog.01 Some of you may find it useful or instructive to use the telnet program to connect directly to port 25 on krusty-motorsports.com and see what kind of reply you get; this requires some technical knowledge and is not for everyone (you can get out of this at anytime after the initial banner simply by typing quit and hitting enter.) l) Is SMTP over TLS involved? This is a bit esoteric, but as of 8/8/01 the digest.net mail server will attempt to use "TLS" (Transport Layer Security) for outbound mail if the destination mail server offers it. SMTP over TLS is fairly new technology, and a bit buggy. I am monitoring the logs on the server, and when I see TLS related problems, I manually place the problem destinations on a special exception list; however, this may delay email to the destination host until I make the exception. 2. Why can't I unsubscribe? a) are you using the right address? send to majordomo-at-digest.net, and the command format is unsubscribe list-name my-email-address b) has your email address changed? majordomo has no way of knowing that Fred.Flinstone-at-BarneyCo.com was once fflintstone-at-bedrock.org. you can check this with the which command (see 1.b) above for details) 3. How do I post to the list? You may use either one of two addresses: for example, the bmw-digest may be reached using either bmw-at-digest.net or bmw-digest-at-digest.net If you are using the correct addresses and your posts don't show up, check out the stuff in 1. above. 4. Where are the archives? see ftp://ftp.digest.net/ for digest archives. the web archives have proven problematic, and are awaiting time for a systematic attack on the problems they've been having. 5. What other lists are on digest.net? see http://www.digest.net/ for more information. 6. Is there a web subscription form? Yes, recently added. go to http://www.digest.net/bin/digest-subs.cgi 7. Why not move the lists to someplace like (egroups, topica,...)? The Krusty Motorsports server (aka, digest.net) was explicitly to provide for efficient management of the various automotive mailing lists, done the way that the owner of the server wanted it done. Any migration off of the server (which is already bought, paid for, and configured) would create any number of issues. 8. How do i contact the Server Administrator in an emergency? If my regular email address (rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com) isn't working for you, you can fall back on rwelty-at-suespammers.org 9. What is Krusty Motorsports, anyway? Krusty Motorsports (http:/www.krusty-motorsports.com/) is a business which is owned and operated by Richard Welty (rwelty-at-krusty-motorsports.com). Krusty is an S-Corporation in the State of New York. Krusty provides a number of Internet related services, such as mailing list, web sites, pop3/telnet accounts, and consulting on internet related issues. For more information, see the web site. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 00:42:50 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: FSJ_Modified.. Sci FI or a new trend? A: That's FLIR Forward Looking Infrared IIRC. That's the type of cameras that busted the FBI's lies in WACO! From: "R.J. Baynum" Subject: fsj: FSJ_Modified.. Sci FI or a new trend? Well i guess you can call it Sci-Fi , in a heavy metal, with Grand vision of imagination of ugly brute Force. sort of Mad Max like ?! Yep I noticed, And recognize this as a class of it's own right, and or FSJ Breed all it's own. The Frankenstein FSJ. Most people trying to get the best of both worlds, or other worlds ( which ever the case may be..) to suit their needs.. Yes, You may be concerned.. But don't be.. Nor As I am concerned about you for not noticing such things. I am truly amazed at the possibilities people think of when they cross breed FSJs, and when they they add things to the dash, like cameras, VCR's, GPS, and so much has a police Fluer (sp?) system ( far infra red )from a helicopter, in it! So your calling me,.. ME!.. Crazy?!! I THINK NOT! This should make for the most interesting, and most pop science like, Sci-fi FSJ List on the planet! I plan to make it so! ( As Capt. Picard would say!) The Universe is the only limit! so if you don't like it.. Live long and Prosper ! R.J. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 00:45:12 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Re: gatherings east of here... A: C'mon John! It was only 2 days for me to get there! (and 27 hours of straight driving with one 1/2 hour nap break to get home!) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Re: gatherings east of here... Hey, I drove THREE DAYS EAST to get to Ouray... ;) Trying to find a location that's central to all is tough... :) john ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 00:57:29 -0700 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: I might have this figured out A: From my little bag of electrical tricks. First, make sure the ground wire from the battery negative is going to the body and frame somehow (feedback through the engine bearings and axles is a very poor conduit to run the charging system and lights) I cut the original red wire off at the big splice, and then splice it into the harness going back to the solenoid, so the fusible link that is originally in the system is still online. Make sure no sharp edges or exposure to heat is possible. The little wire is just a sensor, and it takes a tiny bit of power to keep things operating correctly. (any resistance in the line can make it overcharge, and so will a break. It needs correct battery level reading to operate right. If the ammeter connections are corroded, then the alt thinks the battery is lower than it really is, and then the alt puts out more power to try to overcome the problem, which is why there is a meltdown at the ammeter) The little blue/black wire is just a on/off power that is keyed to turn the alt on and off with the ignition. It requires a 10 ohm resistance to keep the alt from feeding back and keeping the ignition running after the Jeep is shut off (if the connector is hooked up backwards it can do that too) A 168 to 194 light bulb hooked up in series will work as a resistor, but if the bulb burns out, the next time the Jeep starts, it won't charge. From: "Daniel Beiers" Subject: fsj: I might have this figured out Hello, I have been reading in the archives and I found a string that eludes to bypassing the normal wiring of the "charging system" and putting in a wire directly from the alternator to the battery. I am having charging problems on my 85 wagoneer and I started looking at the wiring. basically I have a heavy gauge (but not to heavy) red wire that goes from the alternator (stud and nut connection in back) into the firewall. there is also a light gauge red wire that leads from the plastic clip on the alternator. this lighter red wire is spliced into a yellow wire, that goes to the fire wall, and a brown wire that goes to the starter solenoid. Before go further I should mention that last summer my ammeter went out and I bypassed by putting a jumper wire between the 2 terminals. So, based on what I have read it seems that I can just not use this yellow or larger red wire. I am thinking about running a wire from the alt (stud and nut connection) to the post on the starter solenoid. I would also run the lighter red wire from the plastic clip back to the starter solenoid. Here are the questions: 1. Will this work? Do I need this loop through the fire wall intact to have other things function beside the ammeter? 2. I am assuming I will need a fusible link between the alt and the batt. How many amps? Any one know where I might find such a device? Thanks for reading this, I have this thing apart and I am stuck at work. I want to put it back together right but I don't want to screw anything up. Please email me directly if you have any input or suggestions for me. I appreciate any insight you guys can offer. Thanks Dan ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1737 **************************