From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Nov 11 09:21:16 2002 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, November 10 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1788 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: ben's bad ground... fsj: jim's car problem... Re: fsj: 241 vs 242 Re: fsj: 241 vs 242 fsj: Re: [FSJ-List] tom's shakes... '87 GW prob Re: fsj: jim's abandoned car problem... fsj: Re: Amsoil 30 oil fsj: Re: ben's bad ground... fsj: Re: lift and wheel clearance fsj: Re: '71 turn signal problem fsj: Re: Amsoil 30 oil FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 22:59:57 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: ben's bad ground... Ben, This sounds like you have a bad ground some where. I'd start by cleaning the ground connection from the body to the engine and battery, and then checking your lamps, the bulbs may be corroded in your turn signal/parking light sockets. I had a problem like this on my '67 Wagoneer... I just cleaned ever electrical connector I could reach, cleaned the bulbs and it cleared the problem. :) john At 05:58 AM 11/8/2002 +0000, FSJ-List-at-yahoogroups.com wrote: > Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 00:15:50 EST > From: brazzadog-at-aol.com >Subject: '71 turn signal problem >When I turn on the right side turn signal, some of the power seems to >bleeding off to the right side just enough to make the left side lights blink >feebly. The right side looks a bit sluggish compared to when I turn the left >side on. With the headlights or parking lights on, the right side doesn't >work at all and neither does the hazard flasher. The hazards work fine if >the headlights or parking lights are off. >I don't have a clue where the power might be bleeding across. There is no >fuse panel. It seems unlikely that it would happen in the instrument >cluster. The turnsignal switch was brand new about 3 years ago. Today I >finally installed the new headlight switch that had been gathering dust in my >garage. It didn't help the problem, but now I have dash lights : ) >The wiring diagram in my Kaiser era TSM leaves a bit to be desired. If >anyone has a '72 wiring diagram and could give me some pointers, I'd >apprecieate it. >Ben Williams >'71 Wagoneer - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 23:16:07 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: jim's car problem... no problem, just let them have the car... the towing company can then auction it off for the towing bill, that's the way it's supposed to work... abandoned, schabandoned... they can place a mechanic's lean against it and claim title... I'm sure they'd love to garnish your wages, jump claim on your mortgage and get your paycheck for the rest of their natural lives, but there's limits to these things. :) There's no way they can revoke your license for that, only the title to the car to cover impound fees... People lose cars to crooked towing operators all the time that way... same with if you have an accident and let someone tow and "store" your car.... you'll never see it again because the storage value exceeds it's scrap value. Towing companies have auctions all the time. someone is blowing smoke up your skirt dude... relax, and tell 'em they can have the car. You'll even give 'em the title and they can do whatever they want with it. You don't ever want to see it again. john At 07:57 AM 11/9/2002 +0000, fsj-digest wrote: >Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 09:30:24 -0800 >From: "Jim B" >Subject: fsj: Scrap cars, dirty pool and my tale of woe > I unhooked the car at the gateway to the crusher and went to get my >fingers attended to. Monday came, and I was called into work early because >my boss was sick (before the yard opened) Tuesday rolls around and I go to >get my morning mail. In the mail is a letter from Columbia Towing, so I open >it, and inside is a bill for $1006 for an abandoned car! WTF? > I jumped in my truck and drove down to the yard, and talk to Bud and I >get "Well your car sat there for a very long time and since we didn't have >the title, the city forces us to have them hauled away". He told me to try >talking to the scrapyard operator, so I go over there expecting to just hand >over the title with an explanation and be done with it. Wouldn't that have >been nice? > Obviously not what happened, or I wouldn't be here, right? They wanted >the money, and told me that if I refused to pay, my driver's license will be >revoked! When I protested I didn't have the money (I'm on the edge of >bankruptcy as it is) they gave me a form to fight it. (What a joke! They >keep the car and keep adding fees, even though I told them to take it over >to the scrapyard) Yesterday, I went to court and found that out. The judge >also determined that it was a "properly impounded vehicle" and refunded me >my filing fee and that was when I found out the fee was now $3000!!!!! > If anyone has any (legal) suggestions about what to do about this, please >let me know. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 23:21:17 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: Re: fsj: 241 vs 242 From: john Subject: fsj: 241 vs 242 At 05:58 AM 11/8/2002 +0000, FSJ-List-at-yahoogroups.com wrote: >Message: 17 > Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:17:20 -0500 > From: "Zack Heisey" >Subject: Re: Transfer Cases... > The 241 is a part time transfer case, meaning it has 2wd, 4wd, N, and 4 >low. Both 4wd positions are part time meaning that the front and rear >driveshafts are locked together (and hence should only be used "part" of the >time). Does the 1 in 241 indicates it's a part time? What vehicles use this? Is there some rhyme or reason to these designators? A: I don't know what the designator is for, but the '03 Wrangler Rubicon uses the 241 Rock Lok (so will Black Jack! I'm getting 4 days off in a row hopefully and I will be working on my truck, weather willing) Dodge used them with the diesels and V8s. > The 242 comes in 2 flavors, 4 position and 5 position. Both have 4 part >time, 4 full time, N, and 4 low. Again, 4 low is part time. The 4 full >time uses a geared differential to allow difference in speed between the >front and rear drive shaft so it can be use "full" time. The difference in >the 5 position is you get a true 2wd. How can you tell the difference between the 4 position and the 5 position? "True" 2wd? Is that via an axle disconnect? A: IIRC, it disconnects the front drive assembly from the center carrier. >Not that it makes any difference, in test after test there is >absolutely no difference in gas mileage between >full time 4wd and 2wd when in the same vehicle. That's all. >Zack Heisey Agreed, I ran my '88 XJ Cherokee with the 4.0L/Aisin Warner 30-80LE and NP242 in full time and 2wd and didn't notice any difference, except that my tires didn't spin on wet roads and when I had a locker it reduced it's affect. I noticed more mileage change when I used the POWER in the "power/comfort" setting for the transmission, lost almost 1 mpg using it. john meister (way behind in digest mode... :) A: The 242 is just an improved version of the NP228! (241 is an upgraded NP208, especially with 4:1 low range!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 23:24:57 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 241 vs 242 At 11:21 PM 11/8/2002 -0800, Jim B wrote: >A: The 242 is just an improved version of the NP228! (241 is an >upgraded NP208, especially with 4:1 low range!) I don't think so... The 242 has both part time and full time 4wd with 2wd while the NP228 only has full time 4wd (hi) and 2wd. It lacks the "lock up" in 4wd hi of the NP219 and the 242. The 241 I'm not familiar with... can't speak to it, but the NP208, NP207 and NP231 are very similar in function to a Dana 20. Basic part time 4 wheel drive units. john - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 10:11:36 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [FSJ-List] tom's shakes... '87 GW prob It seemed to hit around 52 mph or so, then go away... turned out to be the bushing one time, another time it was the angle of the rear end after a "mild" lift. lots of variables, tires, brakes, rotors, u-joints, driveshafts, mounts, angles... motor mounts even... bad spark plug... who knows... :) but for determined souls as an FSJ owner these rigs would be recycled and a newer mount parked in the drive... :) john At 09:28 AM 11/9/2002 -0500, Tom Collins wrote: >Replaced the tranny mount when I put in the tranny from my 85. Didn't >have the problem at that time BUT I never checked the damper bushing >either. If its like the rest of 'em it's in sad shape. Thanks, when I >lift it up later I'll also check that. Could be that everything just >"settled" into its proper place after a couple weeks driving! >Tom >john wrote: >Tom, > > Did you check the damper on the transmission/xfr case mount. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 10:33:30 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: jim's abandoned car problem... Jim, et al following the "abandoned" car problem in Seattle... I've been reading the link Kevin sent out... http://www.nwjustice.org/pdfs/312.pdf Bottom line: Jim has two outs: 1) CLAIM FINANCIAL HARDSHIP: (extract from link above) "You must also pay a court filing fee. It is possible that you may not have to pay this fee if you can show financial need. To request a fee waiver, you must file a form with the court called In Forma Pauperis. Ask the court clerk for the form." 2) Let it become "abandoned" (like I said) and let it be auctioned off... WHAT'S GOOD TO KNOW IS THE MAXIMUM THE TOWING COMPANY CAN CHARGE JIM IS $500 beyond what they get from the auction. Nothing more unless the impoundment was directed by Law Enforcement, which is was NOT. It was impounded on Private Property, therefore, if I'm reading it right, this provision does not apply and the auction will have to settle the debt and Jim is liable for only $500, which he can still apply for a financial hardship. The circumstances surrounding the impoundment should be easily confirmed and this matter dropped, if the folks involved are willing to make a statement of the facts. So, THE ARTICLE says: "Once your vehicle has been impounded and is in possession of the tow truck operator for 120 consecutive hours, your vehicle and any items of personal property registered or titled with the department will be considered abandoned unless you have redeemed them or requested a hearing to challenge the legality of the towing. If 15 days or more days have passed since the mailing of the notice of custody and sale, and you have not redeemed your vehicle or challenged the legality of the towing, the vehicle and the registered/titled personal property shall be sold at a public auction. At any time prior to the auction, you still have the right to buy back the property being auctioned by paying the towing and storage fees. The tow truck company is only required to publish the date and time of the auction in a newspaper of general circulation. After the vehicle is sold, you may still have a debt to the towing company if their costs exceed the amount received from the sale of your vehicle. This is called a deficiency. The amount of the "deficiency claim" may not exceed $500, unless the impoundment was authorized by law enforcement." So, if this is the entire RCW on this subject there appear to be no provisions invoking license forfeiture, only property loss. Of course this PDF could be out of date... a search of the RCW's at the Public Library seem to be Jim's next task. john At 07:56 AM 11/9/2002 -0700, Stephanie Steele wrote: >I don't know about your state but in mine you can be cited and have your >license suspended for abandoning a vehicle. This is becoming such a large >problem nationally you are going to see more and more states take these >kind of actions. >john wrote: >>There's no way they can revoke your license for that, only the >>title to the car to cover impound fees... >- >Stephanie - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 10:37:48 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Amsoil 30 oil At 09:53 AM 11/9/2002 -0600, Lindel Easley wrote: >John, >would the HD 30 be ok with a limited slip addative for the QT? >I don't see any reason why it wouldn't >Lindel Easley Which QT, the Borg Warner 1339? No, I don't think so, you really need get the right stuff... it's some sort of fish oil or something like that, we have found no substitute for it after research... Michael Baxter and others and I have researched and looked and found nothing, to my recollection, that will work as a substitute. The NP219 Quadratrac uses ATF w/o additive. The factory manuals are wrong in citing 30W oil, shouldn't hurt it, I used it... :) but the correct fluid for any aluminum case chain driven xfr case is ATF. No friction modifier is needed for it. :) john - ----------------------------------------------------- http://www.wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/ To order 1-800-956-5695 customer# 283461 http://www.wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/amsoil-xj.html http://www.wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/FSJ_filters.html http://www.wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/Filter_INFORMATION/ Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 10:56:03 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: ben's bad ground... At 12:23 PM 11/9/2002 -0500, Brazzadog-at-aol.com wrote: >Thanks John. Every response I've gotten has suggested a bad ground. I >still don't get how that would make the left side blink when the right >turn signal is on, but a bad ground is extremely likely in the case of my >Wag. Hopefully, today, I'll fit in some electrical fiddling time between >building backsplashes for the kitchen and... >Ben what's happening is the filaments in the other bulbs are acting as a return for the circuit... Kirchoff's Law will not be broken. :) If I could draw a picture in this email it would show that the other filaments are connected to ground, or the ground that is "floating". Sometimes these are referred to as "sneak circuits". Usually the impedance of the "normal" circuit is low enough that they don't come into play. But when something is broken or the impedance increases then these other legs come into play. If your skills are limited as a technician these problems can be quite baffling. :) You begin seeing a change of symptoms when you do various things and you'll end up down a bunny trail and not have a clue. The first thing I do when troubleshooting a system or circuit like this is check the Power Supply and grounds... then I clean all the contacts, I don't care if it's a car, a crypto system or a super computer, it all works the same. :) What appeared to be a component failure is often nothing more then a lose connection. As a technician or design engineer you'll be bitten by a problem like this once, maybe twice... then you resort to a systematic "cleanup" before you proceed. :) I'd hazard a guess that the connection you have between the battery and the body isn't solid, especially since the other filaments are glowing... try jumping a wire from the battery to the body in a couple of places and see if it helps. Your rig might be using the engine as a return to the battery. :) As electrons seek to equalize in the creation's continual seeking of balance, they will find their way through other components to complete the path, but because the resistance of the primary circuit is greater overall the bulbs will burn more dimly. It's simple math really... of course that is explained with Ohm's Law, also which won't be broken. :) The physical laws of the creation are rather unforgiving. Run a new ground strap from battery to body and engine, then clean those sockets and it'll probably work just dandy.... Oh, you want to check for corrosion on the back of those sockets though too, where the connectors mate... it's very common to see galvanic corrosion on those couplers as often dissimilar metal is used. Electrical contact cleaner or better, AMSOIL MP (metal protector)j, seems to help. I like the AMSOIL MP as it seems to work better then contact cleaner, contact cleaner costs more and is designed for cleaner surfaces like relay and switch contacts.... you need some heavy duty penetrant and cleaner. WD40 gums things up but will work in a pinch. PB Blaster will make a nasty smelling mess of things, works ok on old bolts, but not electrical contacts. The $3.00 can of AMSOIL MP spray seems to be the best solution I've found for cleaning electrical contacts. If you know of something better to clean corroded contatcs I'd love to hear about it. :) Using sand paper, steel wool and other abrasives isn't always a good idea as it leaves crud and opens the material up for further corrosion. john meister >In a message dated 11/8/02 10:58:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, >john-at-wagoneers.com writes: >>This sounds like you have a bad ground some where. I'd start >>by cleaning the ground connection from the body to the engine >>and battery, and then checking your lamps, the bulbs may be >>corroded in your turn signal/parking light sockets. >> >>I had a problem like this on my '67 Wagoneer... I just cleaned >>ever electrical connector I could reach, cleaned the bulbs and >>it cleared the problem. :) - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/Filter_INFORMATION/air_filter-1.jpg http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/Filter_INFORMATION/air_filter-2.jpg SJ Jeeps: 360/401: TS-23 258: TS-12 retail $21.50 XJ Jeeps: 4.0L/2.5L('87 and up): TS-29 retail $29.95 WJ Jeeps: 4.7L: TS-104 retail $47.50 DieselBenz: typical S1118 or S1680 retail $32.50 or $39.85 http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/ order 1-800-956-5695 cust# 283461 Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 11:10:49 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: lift and wheel clearance At 07:47 AM 11/9/2002 -0600, Marvin-fsj wrote: >ya that would be great. im fitting 35 12.50 with only a 3" body lift > Thanks >Marvin shoot, I don't think you will need to cut anything, except maybe the front part of the front fender, everything else should clear. My son didn't lift the body, he just grabbed my sawzall and headed for the driveway... :) Looking at the pictures I guess he has 35's. http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/marks-77-cherokee/Sept19-2002/all-cherokee-35.jpg http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/marks-77-cherokee/ This tire shows NO body lift, before trimming, with 3" of body lift you should be fine, I'd guess: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/marks-77-cherokee/chero-2-35s.jpg - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... jesus, don't leave life without him, please! - ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 14:38:08 -0800 From: "Jim B" Subject: fsj: Re: '71 turn signal problem A: Okay, since this is electrical, I'll explain it the way it was told to me. Lights (or anything electrical) need power and ground to work. If you have a double element bulb (which the front is) then the power comes in and goes through the bright element of the bulb and then to ground (which is the case of the bulb) If you take away the ground, then the power continues past the case and back through the dim element of the bulb, back into the harness and seeks another ground. Since the park lights are all joined together, the power jumps across to the other side of the car, through the dim element of that bulb to the ground of the case. The reason the light is so dim is because instead of passing through just one element, it passes through 3 and the resistance drops by the value of each one, so instead of having (for example) 12V at each element, it is divided by the value of each one and comes down to 3V for the bright element (not enough for it to light up), and 4.5V each for the dim elements, which is just enough for them to barely turn on. I can draw a diagram with the values for each one and you can get the real voltages, but this is close enough. IIRC, the correct values at 21W for the bright and 5W for the dim. At least that is what it is for most German cars, which use P21w5 the equivalent to an 1157. It could also possibly be that the bottom of the bulb has melted the 2 terminals together, or someone put an 1156 in place of an 1157. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 9:40 AM To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com Subject: Re: '71 turn signal problem Ok, but how would the bad headlight ground cause the left side signal lights to operate weakly when the right turn signal is on? Or does this just explain why the hazards don't work when the lights are on? Am I chasing more than one problem here? It seems like all these symptoms came on at once. Ben In a message dated 11/8/02 6:17:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, carnuck-at-hotmail.com writes: A: Ben, that means you have a bad ground (probably broken off or undone and hanging) in that corner. If you can't find the ground bolt on the backside of the rad saddle (or wherever it is in a '71) then take out your headlight and unplug it. Either the left or right plug will be ground. You can test which is which by either turning on the signal and grounding them one at a time to see if the turn light gets brighter [with the headlights off], or else turn the headlights on [with them on high beam] and see which one has power. The other has to be ground, and you can add a wire to the frame with a trailer wire clip on, or wire twisted together on the backside of the headlight plug. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 15:00:28 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Amsoil 30 oil actually that's not too bad of a price for the real QT fluid, last I heard Olympic here in Snohomish, WA was charging around $9.95 a quart. I talked to Crown, or one of their distributors, I think I posted to the lists, but didn't get any interest. I have to buy in case quantities, I think I could afford to retail it for around $8 a quart... not worth the trouble for me... paying $10 or even $14 a quart when buying a few every now and then isn't that big of a deal, as long as we can get it. :) I've still got AMSOIL stock sitting in my shop from years ago, buying in case quantity is not fun when you're not aggressively selling the stuff. :) john At 04:53 PM 11/9/2002 -0600, Lindel Easley wrote: >It's the "real" QT, the Borg-Warner edition. I got curious after having >just paid the stealership $30 for 3 quarts. There's no Crown dealerships in >the D/FW metroplex area, or in Texas at all, for that matter. I was trying >to find a viable alternative for a hard to find resource here. > >Thanks for your help. > >Lindel > > > At 09:53 AM 11/9/2002 -0600, Lindel Easley wrote: > > >John, > > >would the HD 30 be ok with a limited slip addative for the QT? > > >I don't see any reason why it wouldn't > > >Lindel Easley > > > > Which QT, the Borg Warner 1339? No, I don't think so, you really > > need get the right stuff... it's some sort of fish oil or something like > > that, we have found no substitute for it after research... > > Michael Baxter and others and I have researched and looked and found > > nothing, to my recollection, that will work as a substitute. > > > > The NP219 Quadratrac uses ATF w/o additive. The factory manuals > > are wrong in citing 30W oil, shouldn't hurt it, I used it... :) but > > the correct fluid for any aluminum case chain driven xfr case is ATF. > > No friction modifier is needed for it. :) > > > > john > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/ > > To order 1-800-956-5695 customer# 283461 > > http://www.wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/amsoil-xj.html > > http://www.wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/FSJ_filters.html > > http://www.wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/Filter_INFORMATION/ > > Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/Filter_INFORMATION/air_filter-1.jpg http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/Filter_INFORMATION/air_filter-2.jpg SJ Jeeps: 360/401: TS-23 258: TS-12 retail $21.50 XJ Jeeps: 4.0L/2.5L('87 and up): TS-29 retail $29.95 WJ Jeeps: 4.7L: TS-104 retail $47.50 DieselBenz: typical S1118 or S1680 retail $32.50 or $39.85 http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL/ order 1-800-956-5695 cust# 283461 Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #1788 **************************