From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Apr 5 21:05:34 2004 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, April 6 2004 Volume 01 : Number 2131 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: NP219 Question Re: fsj: NP219 Question Re: fsj: 35x12.5's (15") Cooper Discover tires on 6 lugs fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous fsj: Re: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous Re: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous fsj: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! fsj: Re: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! fsj: Re: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! fsj: Re: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! fsj: Re: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 21:23:12 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: NP219 Question On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Jim Blair wrote: >-->A: Absotivalutely correct that gear lube is the wrong stuff for post '80 NP >-->or NV cases. (Probably the same for any chain drive case, but I may be >-->wrong) Redline MTF works well in them. I thought the problem with paul's any synthetic ATF will be an improvement... of course amsoil is what I recommend and use. ;) >-->case was the front axle disconnected while in 4 wheel though? The VC huh? he was cruising down the interstate on his way to Ouray... 2wd... the xfr case was low on fluid, he stopped and someone in eastern WA filled it with gear lube... shortly afterwards... on Dead Man's Hill in Eastern Oregon it cancelled all forward momentum... :) >-->produces heat when there is a difference between the front and rear axle >-->rotations and the gear lube will keep more heat in, so it may have been a >-->partial contributor, but the disengaged front axle would do the VC damage. considering he was in 2wd I would hope it was disconnected... :) >-->The type of oil in the case would have little bearing on the issue. (Gear >-->lube would starve the bearings in cold weather at low speeds though) >--> >-->On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Jim Blair wrote: >--> >-->>-->A: Stick with Dexron ATF. It lubes better (later manuals mention this >-->>and if >-->>-->you have the MR253, it's in the IS notes in the back) >--> >-->that's right... we stumbled across this error in the early days of the >-->list when I had Old Blue. :) >--> >-->fwiw amsoil is fully compatible with dextron. the synethic does a better >-->job of transferring heat, resisting damage from moisture, etc... >--> >-->thinking about it the np219 has a viscous coupler, right? if so gear >-->lube in that jewel could kill it... paul's np229 went away after a fill >-->of gear lube heading to Ouray... >--> >-->john >--> >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->From: "Matthew Dehait" >-->>-->Subject: fsj: NP219 Question >-->>--> >-->>-->OK: >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->I was thinking about changing the oil in the Wagoneer's transfer case, >-->>so I >-->>-->get the 10W30 at the store like the book says, but when I get under it, >-->>I >-->>-->can see ATF dripping out of it (just a little, but coming from it for >-->>sure). >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->It looks like it might have been out at one time, so maybe if someone >-->>-->rebuilt it they used ATF instead of oil? >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->I dunno, it's an '80 and the manual as well as the Haynes both say >-->>10W30. >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->Think it's safe to just dump the ATF and flush out with some oil, or >-->>should >-->>-->I stick with the ATF, and if so, what kind? >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->Thanks, >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>--> >-->>-->Matt >-->>--> >--> >--> ---- >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 21:55:05 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: NP219 Question The viscous coupler is locked out in the NP229 in 2WD, so it had to shift part way to 4x4 to blow up. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 7:43:07 -0400 From: Tom & Lisa King Subject: Re: fsj: 35x12.5's (15") Cooper Discover tires on 6 lugs Air Force ..... good man. Spent 10 years in the USAF. Good place to get a start on life. If he has any questions drop me an email. Tom > > From: john > Date: 2004/04/05 Mon AM 12:20:52 EDT > To: full size jeep list , xj-list > Subject: fsj: 35x12.5's (15") Cooper Discover tires on 6 lugs > > Need to sell my son's 35x12.5x15" Cooper Discover tires mounted > on six lug rims... he just sold his '81 Wagoneer... plans on > buying the neighbor's '64 Cadillac. Funny how the Air Force > changes one's thinking. ;) > > He's down at Sheppard AFB now in training. We went down and > saw him in San Antonio for his graduation from AF Basic. > > Anyway, these tires are in Snohomish, he paid $750 for them from > Olympic 4x4 and they haven't had a lot of use. > > they ride nice, are quiet and like I said, saw little use... > > I think this sale will be limited to those within driving distance > of Seattle, WA because postage on these gumbos will be a little bit > out of line. ;) > > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/PARTS/35x12-1.jpg > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/PARTS/35x12-2.jpg > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/PARTS/35x12-3.jpg > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/PARTS/35x12-4.jpg > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/PARTS/35x12-5.jpg > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/PARTS/35x12-6.jpg > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/PARTS/35x12-7.jpg > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/PARTS/35x12-8.jpg > http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/PARTS/35x12-9.jpg > > email me off list at john-at-wagoneers.com (if someone > could forward this to the other FSJ lists I'd appreciate it... > thanx jim. ;) > > > john > > > ---- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** > Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 08:18:42 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous {- http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/ES/ESHHEC/HtRsrVlv.html First, I think that heat riser butterfly valve is worthless. I've had more of those broken and making clicking noises on the FSJs, and never had one that worked... I finally had the one on my '88 removed and a spacer put in, though that's hard to get right, too, since there's no standard part to replace it. But when (not "if") it breaks and starts clicking, it's generally in the $140 range for a replacement, and that will likely break itself in another few years (AMHIK). As for the adapter from that web page, is that plastic or some kind of composite? Looks plastic in the picture -- which I definitely wouldn't trust -- but if you look at the huge picture (from the .zip file using the "photo" link), it may be composite. Still doesn't look like (painted) metal, though I could be wrong. At any rate, I personally wouldn't waste the time or money. BTW, in case there are people here who don't know, the heat riser _tube_, which is the bendable aluminum tube going from the right header/manifold up to the air intake (and may be known by other names), _does_ have an attachment welded onto my Edelbrock headers from the factory. Of course, that doesn't use actual exhaust air (yeah, that'd be great to pipe into your carb for oxygen), just transfers the heat up to warm the air coming in to help when the engine's warming up. That's intended for colder climates, though how well it works is debatable. That should be less than $10 to replace, though, and just sets right in in a few seconds. If you don't have the attachments on your header/manifold or air cleaner, don't worry about it; if you do, you can put one on if you want. And since that's pre-heating the air, it shouldn't matter if your intake manifold is "set up" for that or not. And on another related topic, I'm not sure I'd use headers anyway. I've had tons of problems keeping mine tight -- lots of exhaust ticking when they get loose. I may finally have the problem solved with copper gaskets (which I'll now use even if I get manifolds), but the headers -- Edelbrocks, just a few years old -- also developed some splits near where the four tubes come together, and the shop had to weld those splits shut. Big pain in the rear all around. (Though the argument would go that I don't know if manifolds would have had fewer problems or not. But I didn't have nearly as many problems with the stock manifolds on any of my four FSJs over the years, including the '88 before I went to headers or the manifolds still on my '74 -- those look like the original factory ones.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No! Try not! Do, or do not. There is no try. -- Yoda - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:27:29 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: fsj: Re: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous the heat riser adapter sure looks like a cast part with welded on steel flanges to me. but, i digress. i hear what you're saying about the quarky-ness off the heat riser assy. i've had them fail (stick) on other vehicles, too, but they do seem to help on cold starts - they don't help on the immediate start-up, but do help the motor to get to normal operation quicker. (btw, this is my first FSJ, so i can't speak from experience on these vehicles) ok, if in-fact my manifold does NOT have the EGR (exhaust gas recurculation) ports on it, what would you suggest to help out in the cold-start area? a manual choke as Jim suggested? thanks for the good info on your previous reply! oh - and regard to using headers on not, i think i'll stick with them for now, seeing as they were "free" with the truck. no point in spending $ on stock manifolds if i don't need to. Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Black" To: "Full Size Jeeps" Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 9:18 AM Subject: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous > {- http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/ES/ESHHEC/HtRsrVlv.html > > First, I think that heat riser butterfly valve is worthless. I've had > more of those broken and making clicking noises on the FSJs, and never > had one that worked... I finally had the one on my '88 removed and a > spacer put in, though that's hard to get right, too, since there's no > standard part to replace it. But when (not "if") it breaks and starts > clicking, it's generally in the $140 range for a replacement, and that > will likely break itself in another few years (AMHIK). > > As for the adapter from that web page, is that plastic or some kind of > composite? Looks plastic in the picture -- which I definitely wouldn't > trust -- but if you look at the huge picture (from the .zip file using > the "photo" link), it may be composite. Still doesn't look like > (painted) metal, though I could be wrong. > > At any rate, I personally wouldn't waste the time or money. > > > BTW, in case there are people here who don't know, the heat riser > _tube_, which is the bendable aluminum tube going from the right > header/manifold up to the air intake (and may be known by other names), > _does_ have an attachment welded onto my Edelbrock headers from the > factory. Of course, that doesn't use actual exhaust air (yeah, that'd > be great to pipe into your carb for oxygen), just transfers the heat up > to warm the air coming in to help when the engine's warming up. That's > intended for colder climates, though how well it works is debatable. > That should be less than $10 to replace, though, and just sets right in > in a few seconds. If you don't have the attachments on your > header/manifold or air cleaner, don't worry about it; if you do, you can > put one on if you want. And since that's pre-heating the air, it > shouldn't matter if your intake manifold is "set up" for that or not. > > > And on another related topic, I'm not sure I'd use headers anyway. I've > had tons of problems keeping mine tight -- lots of exhaust ticking when > they get loose. I may finally have the problem solved with copper > gaskets (which I'll now use even if I get manifolds), but the headers -- > Edelbrocks, just a few years old -- also developed some splits near > where the four tubes come together, and the shop had to weld those > splits shut. Big pain in the rear all around. (Though the argument > would go that I don't know if manifolds would have had fewer problems or > not. But I didn't have nearly as many problems with the stock manifolds > on any of my four FSJs over the years, including the '88 before I went > to headers or the manifolds still on my '74 -- those look like the > original factory ones.) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----- > No! Try not! Do, or do not. There is no try. > > -- Yoda > -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:58:34 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Dan Black wrote: >-->{- http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/ES/ESHHEC/HtRsrVlv.html >--> >-->First, I think that heat riser butterfly valve is worthless. I've had >-->more of those broken and making clicking noises on the FSJs, and never >-->had one that worked... I finally had the one on my '88 removed and a >-->spacer put in, though that's hard to get right, too, since there's no >-->standard part to replace it. But when (not "if") it breaks and starts >-->clicking, it's generally in the $140 range for a replacement, and that >-->will likely break itself in another few years (AMHIK). I have noticed a difference in starting when the heat riser and tube off the exhaust stuff isn't in place... But it can be overcome with an adjustment to the choke... :) I've typically run with open aircleaner assemblies to get more air so the heat riser stuff is useless... the little flipper thing in the exhaust I feel restricts air flow... What I've done is removed the flapper and the shaft and put bolts in place and sealed with JB Weld. Or, have actually welded them into the housing so it's sealed. Seems to work fine that way and I didn't have to find a spacer... I've done the same thing for egr valves on other engines, but I would NOT recommend killing off the egr on an AMC 360, they like to ping and the egr might save your motor from meltdown... but then again I would think one could adjust timing to prevent that... on the 4.0L's they have anti-knock sensors that automatically adjust the timing... >-->And on another related topic, I'm not sure I'd use headers anyway. I've >-->had tons of problems keeping mine tight -- lots of exhaust ticking when >-->they get loose. I may finally have the problem solved with copper >-->gaskets (which I'll now use even if I get manifolds), but the headers -- >-->Edelbrocks, just a few years old -- also developed some splits near >-->where the four tubes come together, and the shop had to weld those >-->splits shut. Big pain in the rear all around. (Though the argument >-->would go that I don't know if manifolds would have had fewer problems or >-->not. But I didn't have nearly as many problems with the stock manifolds >-->on any of my four FSJs over the years, including the '88 before I went >-->to headers or the manifolds still on my '74 -- those look like the >-->original factory ones.) Dan, et. al. I've done headers and will never do them again... they're noisier, create more heat in the engine compartment, and as Dan has pointed out work loose.... they also crack over time and become brittle... Of course if you get good gaskets, use aircraft locking bolts and get a good heavy gauge/quality header you might be ok. I know folks use them, but the biggest question one must ask with a Jeep is, WHY? Headers are designed for high RPM use... we're usually looking for low end grunt to get up a trail or off the line... stock manifolds work much better for low end grunt... As far as manifolds being troublesome, to some extent... On the AMC engines I plan an annual routine of replacing vacuum lines, changing spark plugs and tightening intake and exhaust bolts... threadlock is also recommended... of course replacing the older AMC motors with the newer 4.0L or a different engine completely are also reasonable ideas.... ;) later, john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 13:33:54 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! yes... 1985 to '87 XJ's came with a Renault All-aluminum Turbo Diesel... I had an '85 model... if you have one that's Diesel you could probably transplant another one and get it past the emission-nazi's... I'm giving serious thought to using a Mercedes 3.0L TD in my '83 J10. I think if I use a turbo from a later model benz the '83 3.0LTD I found might put out the power I'm looking for... I have to examine all the specs to see. In the early '80s the Mercedes Diesels didn't let the turbo kick in until about 35mph... my '91 seems to be there right off the line... so if I use a turbo from a '91 2.5 or 3.0L TD it might make the older TD respond better and give me the oomph to push 4,100 lbs of FSJ using 4.10 gears along... :) john On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Jason Allen wrote: >-->Dear John, >--> >-->I have a dilemma: I love the pre-87 wagoneers and I want to experiment with biodiesel. I am moving to Portland OR in June and am trying to eye my car purchase on the west coast now, came accross your repeated web-presence etc: >--> >-->my question: are there indirect injection diesel engines in factory wagoneers from any year? >--> >-->Thanks a lot! >--> >-->Jason >-->http://www.gorustic.com >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 14:54:41 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! A: The only factory diesel that came in the full size was the Nissan non-turbo 6 cyl. (they were only exported AFAIK) IH Scouts ran the same drivetrain, so you could get one for parts to transplant and add the turbo to that. I think the MB diesel had a lower compression raio with turbo, but I'm not sure as I only recollect that from IH 7.3L and other motors. John wrote: yes... 1985 to '87 XJ's came with a Renault All-aluminum Turbo Diesel... I had an '85 model... if you have one that's Diesel you could probably transplant another one and get it past the emission-nazi's... I'm giving serious thought to using a Mercedes 3.0L TD in my '83 J10. I think if I use a turbo from a later model benz the '83 3.0LTD I found might put out the power I'm looking for... I have to examine all the specs to see. In the early '80s the Mercedes Diesels didn't let the turbo kick in until about 35mph... my '91 seems to be there right off the line... so if I use a turbo from a '91 2.5 or 3.0L TD it might make the older TD respond better and give me the oomph to push 4,100 lbs of FSJ using 4.10 gears along... :) john On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Jason Allen wrote: >-->Dear John, >--> >-->I have a dilemma: I love the pre-87 wagoneers and I want to experiment >with biodiesel. I am moving to Portland OR in June and am trying to eye my >car purchase on the west coast now, came accross your repeated web-presence >etc: >--> >-->my question: are there indirect injection diesel engines in factory >wagoneers from any year? >--> >-->Thanks a lot! >--> >-->Jason >-->http://www.gorustic.com >--> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 14:49:09 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! in the US there was NEVER a Diesel offered in the SJ models... :( none, nada, zip... in the XJ's US models only the Renaults. IN the CJ's they offered a Perkins in the '60's. Never did a Nissan Diesel find it's way stateside... I think the CJ-10's down under in Aussie land might have had one, could check the lit. john On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Jim Blair wrote: >-->A: The only factory diesel that came in the full size was the Nissan >-->non-turbo 6 cyl. (they were only exported AFAIK) IH Scouts ran the same >-->drivetrain, so you could get one for parts to transplant and add the turbo >-->to that. I think the MB diesel had a lower compression raio with turbo, but >-->I'm not sure as I only recollect that from IH 7.3L and other motors. >--> >--> >-->John wrote: >-->yes... 1985 to '87 XJ's came with a Renault All-aluminum Turbo Diesel... I >-->had an '85 model... if you have one that's Diesel you could probably >-->transplant another one and get it past the emission-nazi's... >--> >-->I'm giving serious thought to using a Mercedes 3.0L TD in my '83 J10. >-->I think if I use a turbo from a later model benz the '83 3.0LTD I found >-->might put out the power I'm looking for... I have to examine all the >-->specs to see. In the early '80s the Mercedes Diesels didn't let >-->the turbo kick in until about 35mph... my '91 seems to be there >-->right off the line... so if I use a turbo from a '91 2.5 or 3.0L TD >-->it might make the older TD respond better and give me the oomph to >-->push 4,100 lbs of FSJ using 4.10 gears along... :) >--> >-->john >--> >-->On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Jason Allen wrote: >--> >-->>-->Dear John, >-->>--> >-->>-->I have a dilemma: I love the pre-87 wagoneers and I want to experiment >-->>with biodiesel. I am moving to Portland OR in June and am trying to eye my >-->>car purchase on the west coast now, came accross your repeated web-presence >-->>etc: >-->>--> >-->>-->my question: are there indirect injection diesel engines in factory >-->>wagoneers from any year? >-->>--> >-->>-->Thanks a lot! >-->>--> >-->>-->Jason >-->>-->http://www.gorustic.com >-->>--> >--> >--> >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 20:00:54 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! A: The diesel Jtrucks have been in OZ and S America. in the US there was NEVER a Diesel offered in the SJ models... :( none, nada, zip... in the XJ's US models only the Renaults. IN the CJ's they offered a Perkins in the '60's. Never did a Nissan Diesel find it's way stateside... I think the CJ-10's down under in Aussie land might have had one, could check the lit. john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 20:01:38 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Jim Blair wrote: >-->A: The diesel Jtrucks have been in OZ and S America. yeah... and in Europe too... just like now, the WJs and XJs have Diesels... :( john >--> >--> >-->in the US there was NEVER a Diesel offered in the SJ models... :( >--> >-->none, nada, zip... in the XJ's US models only the Renaults. >--> >-->IN the CJ's they offered a Perkins in the '60's. >--> >-->Never did a Nissan Diesel find it's way stateside... >-->I think the CJ-10's down under in Aussie land might have had one, could >-->check the lit. >--> >-->john >--> >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2131 **************************