From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Apr 7 13:23:07 2004 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, April 7 2004 Volume 01 : Number 2132 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous fsj: Re: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! fsj: Re: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! Re: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous Re: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous Re: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous fsj: Re: list o' lift gotchas? Re: fsj: Re: list o' lift gotchas? fsj: Be careful working on your own vehicle~! FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:15:12 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous On Tue, 6 Apr 2004, Neal Hoover wrote: >-->so, could you tell me how you do the manually adjustable choke, john? had an electric choke... set it up when cold with a 1/16th drill bit... or take it to someone that knows what the heck they're doing... ;) I get it close then have a friend tweak it. I hate analog stuff... chokes, carbs... ;) give me a Diesel or fuel injection or give me a good mechanic friend. ;) john >--> >-->Neal A. Hoover >-->Project '76 J-10 >-->Project '96 XJ >-->----- Original Message ----- >-->From: "john" >-->To: "Dan Black" >-->Cc: "Full Size Jeeps" >-->Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 12:58 PM >-->Subject: Re: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous >--> >--> >-->> On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Dan Black wrote: >-->> >-->> >-->{- >-->http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/ES/ESHHEC/HtRsrVlv.html >-->> >--> >-->> >-->First, I think that heat riser butterfly valve is worthless. I've had >-->> >-->more of those broken and making clicking noises on the FSJs, and never >-->> >-->had one that worked... I finally had the one on my '88 removed and a >-->> >-->spacer put in, though that's hard to get right, too, since there's no >-->> >-->standard part to replace it. But when (not "if") it breaks and starts >-->> >-->clicking, it's generally in the $140 range for a replacement, and that >-->> >-->will likely break itself in another few years (AMHIK). >-->> >-->> I have noticed a difference in starting when the heat riser and >-->> tube off the exhaust stuff isn't in place... But it can >-->> be overcome with an adjustment to the choke... :) I've typically >-->> run with open aircleaner assemblies to get more air so the heat >-->> riser stuff is useless... the little flipper thing in the exhaust >-->> I feel restricts air flow... What I've done is removed the flapper >-->> and the shaft and put bolts in place and sealed with JB Weld. Or, >-->> have actually welded them into the housing so it's sealed. Seems >-->> to work fine that way and I didn't have to find a spacer... I've >-->> done the same thing for egr valves on other engines, but I would >-->> NOT recommend killing off the egr on an AMC 360, they like to ping >-->> and the egr might save your motor from meltdown... but then again >-->> I would think one could adjust timing to prevent that... on the >-->> 4.0L's they have anti-knock sensors that automatically adjust the >-->> timing... >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->> >-->And on another related topic, I'm not sure I'd use headers anyway. >-->I've >-->> >-->had tons of problems keeping mine tight -- lots of exhaust ticking >-->when >-->> >-->they get loose. I may finally have the problem solved with copper >-->> >-->gaskets (which I'll now use even if I get manifolds), but the >-->headers -- >-->> >-->Edelbrocks, just a few years old -- also developed some splits near >-->> >-->where the four tubes come together, and the shop had to weld those >-->> >-->splits shut. Big pain in the rear all around. (Though the argument >-->> >-->would go that I don't know if manifolds would have had fewer problems >-->or >-->> >-->not. But I didn't have nearly as many problems with the stock >-->manifolds >-->> >-->on any of my four FSJs over the years, including the '88 before I went >-->> >-->to headers or the manifolds still on my '74 -- those look like the >-->> >-->original factory ones.) >-->> >-->> Dan, et. al. I've done headers and will never do them again... they're >-->> noisier, create more heat in the engine compartment, and as Dan has >-->pointed >-->> out work loose.... they also crack over time and become brittle... Of >-->course >-->> if you get good gaskets, use aircraft locking bolts and get a good heavy >-->> gauge/quality header you might be ok. I know folks use them, but the >-->biggest >-->> question one must ask with a Jeep is, WHY? Headers are designed for high >-->> RPM use... we're usually looking for low end grunt to get up a trail or >-->> off the line... stock manifolds work much better for low end grunt... >-->> >-->> As far as manifolds being troublesome, to some extent... On the AMC >-->> engines I plan an annual routine of replacing vacuum lines, changing >-->> spark plugs and tightening intake and exhaust bolts... threadlock >-->> is also recommended... of course replacing the older AMC motors with >-->> the newer 4.0L or a different engine completely are also reasonable >-->> ideas.... ;) >-->> >-->> later, >-->> john >-->> >-->> >-->> ---- >-->> >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >-->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:22:18 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! at $3,000 don't expect much... if you're able to find an XJ with a Diesel it may need that much in repairs... if you do find one with an automatic for more in good shape let me know. :) The parts for the Renault Diesel are quite spendy, a sleeve kit alone was $800 jobber price some 10 years ago... a retrofit of a different engine would make more sense... if you're on a shoestring doing a retrofit may not be within your grasp... however, if you want economy then a 2.5L in an XJ would work quite well, or even a 4.0L. My '87 has 249,000 miles on it and gets around 17mpg in town and 21mpg on the freeway with it's 4.0L. A full size Wagoneer will be lucky to see 13 or 14 mpg, downhill, with a tail wind, being pushed by a toyota and with the engine off... ;) If you can find a Wagoneer with the 4.2L you might see 14 to 15 mpg in town and maybe 18 to 20 on the road. My '83 J10 hit 19mpg on the freeway and would get around 15 to 16 in town... I'm hoping for more whether I go with the 4.0L or the 3.0L TD Mercedes Diesel... john On Tue, 6 Apr 2004, Jason Allen wrote: >-->Dear John and Jim, >--> >-->thanks for your wisdom; well, I can try looking online for a used 85 to 87 XJ on or near the west coast. Its just that I cannot afford more than one car at the moment (and even for the one car my budget it $3,000 all told!). >--> >-->Its just that I have been on a long journey around the globe the last three years (on a shoestring) and that put me most of the time in the mountains in old rugged vehicles. But it was older Wagoneers (pre 87) that pulled the other jeeps out of the snow and sometimes thigh deep mud again and again. The wagoneers seemed to do a great job crossing small streams etc as well. I like the look, but more than anything else it is the rugged reliability sine my favorite place is the backcountry and desert of the US. >--> >-->That being said, I dont want to participate in the expensive and bloody petrolium cycle so I am thinking about either engine coversion (with a kit or on my own) or possibly even making my own biodiesel with vegitable oil. >--> >-->So what I asked you gentilmen about here was the marriage of these two values. Any further leads or advice would be really appreciated. I will be landing in LA on June 7th and buying this car in the two weeks following. >--> >-->Warmest regards, >--> >-->jason >--> >-->Jim Blair wrote: >-->A: The only factory diesel that came in the full size was the Nissan >-->non-turbo 6 cyl. (they were only exported AFAIK) IH Scouts ran the same >-->drivetrain, so you could get one for parts to transplant and add the turbo >-->to that. I think the MB diesel had a lower compression raio with turbo, but >-->I'm not sure as I only recollect that from IH 7.3L and other motors. >--> >--> >-->John wrote: >-->yes... 1985 to '87 XJ's came with a Renault All-aluminum Turbo Diesel... I >-->had an '85 model... if you have one that's Diesel you could probably >-->transplant another one and get it past the emission-nazi's... >--> >-->I'm giving serious thought to using a Mercedes 3.0L TD in my '83 J10. >-->I think if I use a turbo from a later model benz the '83 3.0LTD I found >-->might put out the power I'm looking for... I have to examine all the >-->specs to see. In the early '80s the Mercedes Diesels didn't let >-->the turbo kick in until about 35mph... my '91 seems to be there >-->right off the line... so if I use a turbo from a '91 2.5 or 3.0L TD >-->it might make the older TD respond better and give me the oomph to >-->push 4,100 lbs of FSJ using 4.10 gears along... :) >--> >-->john >--> >-->On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Jason Allen wrote: >--> >-->>-->Dear John, >-->>--> >-->>-->I have a dilemma: I love the pre-87 wagoneers and I want to experiment >-->>with biodiesel. I am moving to Portland OR in June and am trying to eye my >-->>car purchase on the west coast now, came accross your repeated web-presence >-->>etc: >-->>--> >-->>-->my question: are there indirect injection diesel engines in factory >-->>wagoneers from any year? >-->>--> >-->>-->Thanks a lot! >-->>--> >-->>-->Jason >-->>-->http://www.gorustic.com >-->>--> >--> >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 12:17:06 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: o john, your wagoneer wisdom! A: I'll stick with my LPG powered FSJ (once I finish it. Hopefully by June!) It's cheaper to operate than diesel and isn't as expensive to repair if there is a breakdown. On Tue, 6 Apr 2004, Jason Allen wrote: >-->Dear John and Jim, >--> >-->thanks for your wisdom; well, I can try looking online for a used 85 >to 87 XJ on or near the west coast. Its just that I cannot afford more >than one car at the moment (and even for the one car my budget it $3,000 >all told!). >--> >-->Its just that I have been on a long journey around the globe the last >three years (on a shoestring) and that put me most of the time in the >mountains in old rugged vehicles. But it was older Wagoneers (pre 87) that >pulled the other jeeps out of the snow and sometimes thigh deep mud again >and again. The wagoneers seemed to do a great job crossing small streams >etc as well. I like the look, but more than anything else it is the >rugged reliability sine my favorite place is the backcountry and desert of >the US. >--> >-->That being said, I dont want to participate in the expensive and bloody >petrolium cycle so I am thinking about either engine coversion (with a kit >or on my own) or possibly even making my own biodiesel with vegitable oil. >--> >-->So what I asked you gentilmen about here was the marriage of these two >values. Any further leads or advice would be really appreciated. I will >be landing in LA on June 7th and buying this car in the two weeks >following. >--> >-->Warmest regards, >--> >-->jason >--> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 13:23:40 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous A: Hey Neal! Didn't you see my post about a manual choke kit a couple days ago? I'm putting one on my J4000 possibly tomorrow. (have other things to deal with today and I have a late start since I just got up due to rude neighbors keeping us awake most of the night with the drug deals and fighting going on. It took 4 1/2 hours for the police to finally show up!) On Tue, 6 Apr 2004, Neal Hoover wrote: >-->so, could you tell me how you do the manually adjustable choke, john? had an electric choke... set it up when cold with a 1/16th drill bit... or take it to someone that knows what the heck they're doing... ;) I get it close then have a friend tweak it. I hate analog stuff... chokes, carbs... ;) give me a Diesel or fuel injection or give me a good mechanic friend. ;) john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 18:01:54 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous i DID! but, at the time, i was a little more interested in using the heat riser, so i kinda let it slide. now, i'm having different thoughts and entertaining the idea of a manual choke. actually, Jim, i just didn't feel like giving you any credit, so i blew you off! HA! (jk) if you don't mind, i'd like a little info on your choke install if you ever get your neighbors to chill out. :) thanks! Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Blair" To: "john" ; "Neal Hoover" Cc: "full size jeep list" Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 4:23 PM Subject: Re: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous > A: Hey Neal! Didn't you see my post about a manual choke kit a couple days > ago? I'm putting one on my J4000 possibly tomorrow. (have other things to > deal with today and I have a late start since I just got up due to rude > neighbors keeping us awake most of the night with the drug deals and > fighting going on. It took 4 1/2 hours for the police to finally show up!) > > > On Tue, 6 Apr 2004, Neal Hoover wrote: > > >-->so, could you tell me how you do the manually adjustable choke, john? > > had an electric choke... set it up when cold with a 1/16th drill bit... > > or take it to someone that knows what the heck they're doing... ;) > > I get it close then have a friend tweak it. I hate analog stuff... > chokes, carbs... ;) give me a Diesel or fuel injection or give > me a good mechanic friend. ;) > > john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 15:52:28 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: heat riser; exhaust miscellaneous It's pretty basic. Undo the old choke, block off the hot air tube and put the new cover on. Run the cable inside and adjust it to open close. That's it! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 00:07:06 -0500 From: Jeep Nut Subject: fsj: Re: list o' lift gotchas? Thanks for the ideas Jim. What's your best guess on the lift of the 7leaf packs? I note you said the springs are a little thinner, so overall do you think that there would be much lift to them at all? JeepNut Jim Blair wrote: >A: You could be a real CB (Cheap Bastard) and buy just new (or used) main >leaves with new bushings already in, then cut the eyes off your old ones and >add the new spring to the pack. I find Jeeps respond well to this kind of >lift (as do many other cars) The 7 leaf packs use thinner springs so the >ride isn't that much tougher when you lift (I would use them new) > Get new pinbolts (unless you get the whole pack of course) and spring end >bushings. You can make your own leaf wraps or have them made (to keep the >spring pack from twisting) Longer brake hoses (you can lower the rear >bracket from the frame and use stock Chev '76 Blazer hoses for the front, >depending on the size of the hole for your brake caliper bolts.) > I don't like blocks over 2" thick and stay away from aluminum ones! Go >with Edelbrock or the 9000 series shocks (5000 series suck in FSJs!) or >Trailmaster (not a bad ride in mine. The more I load, the better the ride >feels) Do you have a front tracbar as well as rear? I would toss both and >just keep the swaybar (add removeable links) > > >Jeepnut wrote: >Here's maybe a tired topic, but.... >I know people have asked stuff like this before, b u t ... well I never >paid much attention to lift questions because I didn't think I'd ever >need to know... (famous last words) ...so here I am with bad tires, I >can't replace them until I can get an alignment, and since I need to get >the spring bushings replaced, they're popping constantly since the >rubber is essentially all GONE in the front eye of both the leafs up >front, and hey, they're nearly 20 years old those springs, so why not >get new ones?... front springs all mushy, soft, ... so since I'm cheap >with a Summit Racing wish and a WalMart budget, I thought I'd get the >kit from the Whitney catalog with the 3" lift. > > Is that a bad idea? > ...thats 3" of lift for $249.00 AND I get the new springs I need in >front with blocks and Ubolts for the back. I'd have to pay somebody $50 >probably to have the new bushings pressed in anyway, plus another $50.00 >for the bushings likely... (justify, justify) ;-) > > As an alternative I was thinking about getting the Whitney springs >for the front that are shown as stock Heavy Duty w/ 7 leaves. Then >buying the rear blocks and Ubolts separately. It comes out to about the >same price I think, I know they would ride rough, but I don't care too >much about that, more interested in how much lift are the 7 leaf HD's >good for? 2"?? Less?? Seems like they should "last longer" than the >3" lifted standard springs would... > > Maybe I should get the 7leaf springs and a 3" body lift?... > >Opinions? > > I know I'll need new shocks. > and looking at that Whitney catalog... its really kind of cheap for >the body lift kits... so I'm thinkin' maybe I ought to do that too... > So if I do the 3" springs and a 2" body lift, .... 5" sounds like a >lot, what kind of problems is this gonna cause with things l can think >of like... >steering column angle >transmission linkage >transfer case linkage > ... wiring? ... tubes, hoses >Oh, what about the stabilizer bar up front, don't I have to get some >kind of extender kit to keep that working? Trackbar in rear should go? >(front's been gone for years...) >What else am I forgetting?... > JeepNut ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 23:15:55 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: list o' lift gotchas? On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Jeep Nut wrote: >-->Thanks for the ideas Jim. >-->What's your best guess on the lift of the 7leaf packs? >-->I note you said the springs are a little thinner, so overall do you >-->think that there would be much lift to them at all? >--> JeepNut the thinner seven leaves will provide a nicer ride... the total lift is determined by the arch of the springs... more thin leaves are better... flex and ride... lot of the cheap lift kits use thick fat springs and ride like ox carts. :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:50:16 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Be careful working on your own vehicle~! http://www.kirotv.com/weirdheadlines/2979247/detail.html?treets=sea&tml=sea_nots&ts=T&tmi=sea_nots_1_01000004072004 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2132 **************************