From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Jan 3 09:02:32 2005 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, January 3 2005 Volume 01 : Number 2332 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #2331 fsj: offtopic - Washington state issue... fsj: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engine_Conversion_Mounts_=BB_Conversion_Engine_Mounts_=BB_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?FSJ_=BB_Small_Block_Chevy_Motor_Mounts?= fsj: Chev to Jeep conversion links fsj: Re: RE: fsj-digest V1 #2331 Re: fsj: Chev to Jeep conversion links Re: fsj: Re: engine rebuilder note Re: fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #2331 Re: fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #2331 Re: fsj: Chev to Jeep conversion links Re: [db] Re: fsj: Chev to Jeep conversion links Re: fsj: Chev to Jeep conversion links Re: fsj: Re: engine rebuilder note Re: fsj: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engine_Conversion_Mounts_=BB_Conversion_Engine_Mounts_=BB_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?FSJ_=BB_Small_Block_Chevy_Motor_Mounts?= Re: fsj: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engine_Conversion_Mounts_=BB_Conversion_Engine_Mounts_=BB_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?FSJ_=BB_Small_Block_Chevy_Motor_Mounts?= FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:32:53 -0600 From: "Michael & Carmen Keith" Subject: fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #2331 Jim Blair wrote: "It's unlikely they did the oil gallery rear main oiler line (which is the reason many AMC motor's bearings need rebuilding in the first place, due to narrowed oil galleries, like clogged arteries), but they could also have skimped on the cam bearings too." Please provide more detail on the problem with the rear main oiler line. I have the motor from my bro-in-law's '89 GW at the machine shop right now. It threw the #3 rod, & all the rod bearings showed significant wear. The mains didn't look too bad. He plans to keep this truck indefinately; so I want to make sure this motor gets built correctly. Thanks, Michael Keith Houston, TX ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 18:04:50 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: offtopic - Washington state issue... Washington residents: Unless you think the gubernatorial election went smoothly... http://www.revotewa.com/petition.htm john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:14:18 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engine_Conversion_Mounts_=BB_Conversion_Engine_Mounts_=BB_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?FSJ_=BB_Small_Block_Chevy_Motor_Mounts?= http://www.bjsoffroad.com/cartgenie/prodInfo.asp?pid=503&cid=25 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:13:21 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Chev to Jeep conversion links http://www.off-roadweb.com/tech/0312or_jeepower/ http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/fsj_swap.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:41:39 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: RE: fsj-digest V1 #2331 A: I'm trying to recall who sells the kit. I'm sending this to my other email I send out to the AMC-list from. IIRC, Nick is the one with the kit. The kit requires drilling into the oil gallery under the intake and running a line from near the oil pump directly to feed all the mains as fast as possible. I have cleaned out the galleries without doing this fix by running warm solvent through under pressure for a short time (I recall going to lunch while it was being flushed after being hottanked) This of course was back when rebuilders charged for their time to dealerships and wanted to make as sure as possible it wouldn't go bad (or they'd lose their bread and butter!) Jim Blair wrote: "It's unlikely they did the oil gallery rear main oiler line (which is the reason many AMC motor's bearings need rebuilding in the first place, due to narrowed oil galleries, like clogged arteries), but they could also have skimped on the cam bearings too." Please provide more detail on the problem with the rear main oiler line. I have the motor from my bro-in-law's '89 GW at the machine shop right now. It threw the #3 rod, & all the rod bearings showed significant wear. The mains didn't look too bad. He plans to keep this truck indefinately; so I want to make sure this motor gets built correctly. Thanks, Michael Keith Houston, TX Michael & Carmen Keith ; fsj-digest-at-digest.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:35:16 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Chev to Jeep conversion links so, Jim, did you see the costs? let's say for instance that I want to drop my 6.2L V8 Diesel and 700r4 into a late '80's Grand Wagoneer... without switching axles I could use a Jeep NP208 or reclock it/change some stuff on it, or buy an adapter to mate the 700r4 to the stock Jeep xfr case... any idea of cost of these mounts and that xfr case adapter? :) (the gears are turing... ;) another "popcorn" thought is to put a Mercedes 3.0L Diesel into an XJ, mating to it's AW4 tranny... mounts? Adapter? thanx, john On Sun, 2 Jan 2005, Jim Blair wrote: http://www.off-roadweb.com/tech/0312or_jeepower/ http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/fsj_swap.htm http://www.bjsoffroad.com/cartgenie/prodInfo.asp?pid=503&cid=25 ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 22:39:00 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: Re: engine rebuilder note Yeah, I doubt they did the oil galley work. I found a shop in KY (closer) who does AMC race engines. I will investigate them in the future.... Having read some info on a website where the guy had taken many different brands of oil filters and essentially dissected them, I RUN from Fram filters now. Using Mobil 1 filters at $11 a pop, though I just cannot justify the oil expense. Honestly though, I prefer the dino oil. The synthetic stuff looked dirty when checking the oil after only a few hundred miles. The ol' Valvoline MaxLife still looks clean after 1000 miles. Maybe that's my misinterpretation... maybe the synth is doing the better job? Oh well, I still cannot afford $35 oil changes when they get done. In the long term synth may be cheaper but I can pop out $20 out of pocket for an oil change every 3 months or so easier than I can $35 even if it is only done every 6 months or so. Oil pressure looks really good and is very responsive since I did as Vince suggested and swapped that spring/cap/plunger assembly in that he had just bought for the Rez. Jim Blair wrote: >A: STP may help a bit, but I prefer Lucas stuff these days. The noise could >be poor clearancing on the mains when they rebuilt the motor (built to Chev >and not AMC specs) My 304 has done the same noise for almost 2 years now. >It's unlikely they did the oil gallery rear main oiler line (which is the >reason many AMC motor's bearings need rebuilding in the first place, due to >narrowed oil galleries, like clogged arteries), but they could also have >skimped on the cam bearings too. Either will cause low pressure on startup >and extended wear. The brand of oil filter makes an EXTREME difference! I >had a LOT more knocking noise when I ran a Fram filter other than PH11, and >will be running the NAPA gold from now on (discount at work doesn't hurt >either!) > > >Jeepnut wrote: >Guys, I just wanted to ask advice/report on things regarding the engine >out of the RezRunner. >Vince had a shop in Texas do the major part of the rebuild effort. He >had them do a Premium Long Block setup. Here's the link. >http://www.citymotorsupply.com/productdescription.asp > >Now I don't wanna trash them undeservedly but I don't know if they did >him right or not really. When the motor starts up I definately hear >knocking. Only for about 1-2 seconds just at startup, but it does >knock. I have to wonder if they really did a good job on the lower >end.? I also notice that when shifting through the gears manually as >you shift from 2nd to 3rd, if you lighten up on the pedal so that there >is light load on the motor at the higher RPM just as you shift it to >3rd, you hear that knocking again. (no I'm not winding it out to >8000RPM, just a "normal" shift sequence but done manually) > >Changing back to dino oil has not made it better or worse. >I would think Vince knew to breakin with dino before switching to >synthetic, but he's off on another of life's adventures and I can't >reach him by his previous email to ask. I'm just curious for >educational purposes. >In any case, I thought that something like STP to make the bearings >retain more lube would help and I think maybe it has a little bit, but >either I'm overly sensitive to it or it does still have a little knock >at startup. And yeah, STP isn't a miracle cure that will tighten up >the bearing gap of course... Probably doesn't help that all the carpet >is stripped out of her for now so I hear EVERYTHING that is going on >under the hood. > >My interest is to warn any of you potential rebuilders about the shop >POSSIBLY being a bad choice and to learn all I can from the experience. > > Please, all comments welcome. > > > - -- Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 22:52:26 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #2331 I could have sworn I had a write up saved about this... but all I could find was this link. At the bottom is a drawing of what Jim talks about... http://home.off-road.com/~ozifsja/tech/oil_pump_mods.htm Michael & Carmen Keith wrote: >Jim Blair wrote: > >"It's unlikely they did the oil gallery rear main oiler line (which is the >reason many AMC motor's bearings need rebuilding in the first place, due to >narrowed oil galleries, like clogged arteries), but they could also have >skimped on the cam bearings too." > >Please provide more detail on the problem with the rear main oiler line. I >have the motor from my bro-in-law's '89 GW at the machine shop right now. >It threw the #3 rod, & all the rod bearings showed significant wear. The >mains didn't look too bad. He plans to keep this truck indefinately; so I >want to make sure this motor gets built correctly. > >Thanks, > >Michael Keith >Houston, TX > > > - -- Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 22:57:28 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: RE: fsj-digest V1 #2331 Just had a thought. Maybe it was in Dick Dotsons books.... I wonder where I put those things... I'll see if I can find it and let you all know. Michael & Carmen Keith wrote: >Jim Blair wrote: > >"It's unlikely they did the oil gallery rear main oiler line (which is the >reason many AMC motor's bearings need rebuilding in the first place, due to >narrowed oil galleries, like clogged arteries), but they could also have >skimped on the cam bearings too." > >Please provide more detail on the problem with the rear main oiler line. I >have the motor from my bro-in-law's '89 GW at the machine shop right now. >It threw the #3 rod, & all the rod bearings showed significant wear. The >mains didn't look too bad. He plans to keep this truck indefinately; so I >want to make sure this motor gets built correctly. > >Thanks, > >Michael Keith >Houston, TX > > > - -- Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 22:00:48 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: Chev to Jeep conversion links A: With the mount kit Brent at http://bjsoffroad.com has (beefed up a little for the diesel) and the trans mount for a '73/79 FSJ moved back to close to the 6 cyl holes, if at all (don't recall the 700r4/TH400 mount length differences) and used the Chev NP208 input gear in a Jeep NP208 case, it should bolt in, but may need the clocking ring (I'm about to find out when I hook up my Jeep TH400 to a Chev NP208) What is the weight of the Mercedes diesel? I've seen that the turbo motor is easier to bolt in that non-turbo. Silly guy is rerouting the XJ to rack and pinion steering though. I warned him what's going to happen on the bumps! It's not terribly hard to build an adapter. If I had access to a Mercedes (to see about the centerline/level of the engine for clocking and the splash plate between motor and trans for the bolt pattern) and the correct measuring tools, it would take all of a day or 2 to make the pattern and a 1 off (with the right CAD operated program). Maybe drop the guys at Novak a line? so, Jim, did you see the costs? let's say for instance that I want to drop my 6.2L V8 Diesel and 700r4 into a late '80's Grand Wagoneer... without switching axles I could use a Jeep NP208 or reclock it/change some stuff on it, or buy an adapter to mate the 700r4 to the stock Jeep xfr case... any idea of cost of these mounts and that xfr case adapter? :) (the gears are twisting... ;) another "popcorn" thought is to put a Mercedes 3.0L Diesel into an XJ, mating to it's AW4 tranny... mounts? Adapter? thanx, john On Sun, 2 Jan 2005, Jim Blair wrote: http://www.off-roadweb.com/tech/0312or_jeepower/ http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/fsj_swap.htm http://www.bjsoffroad.com/cartgenie/prodInfo.asp?pid=503&cid=25 ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 21:47:50 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [db] Re: fsj: Chev to Jeep conversion links On Sun, 2 Jan 2005, Jon Filina wrote: >-->Chuck offered: >--> >-->> My insane idea is to put a VW TDi (i4 1.9 liter) engine into something >-->> small, 2 seated, open-topped and "fun"... like a Miata or a Lotus Elise. >-->> The result: A "sports-commuter car" >-->> >-->> Lots of torque, an excellent HP/wt ratio, 50+ MPG and uncountable smiles >-->> per mile. >--> >-->Now there's an idea I'd like to see done! It only seems insane to those >-->gassers. We dieselheads are ALL sane, aren't we?? Okay, Mista Meister >-->may be pushing the envelope a bit... hey, that wasn't my idea... I could see it in a Lotus Europa Special though... now that would be trick. ;) I'm thinking more along the lines of a 6.2L Diesel in that 300CD coupe, or a Cummins TD in my J10... :) or quite possibly a 6.2L Diesel into a late '80's Grand Wagoneer... >-->Just how far into la-la land have you carried this idea?? Hey... la-la land is just outside my office... there sits three vehicles that my wife cares NOTHING about... and if I were to build ONE out of three she'd be even happier... :) time... our bitter foe. :) but hey, it's fun to talk about it... mate parts, gather them into nice little piles... talk to others... and then sell the dream to someone else who carries it a bit further... then sells it to the next guy... eventually that same dream comes back, a little closer to reality... and then our wife finds out about it and it's back into circulation... but hey, it's what we live for. :) john >--> >-->Jon >-->'84 300SD "Bruno" >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 21:50:31 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Chev to Jeep conversion links On Sun, 2 Jan 2005, Jim Blair wrote: >-->A: With the mount kit Brent at http://bjsoffroad.com has (beefed up a little >-->for the diesel) and the trans mount for a '73/79 FSJ moved back to close to >-->the 6 cyl holes, if at all (don't recall the 700r4/TH400 mount length >-->differences) and used the Chev NP208 input gear in a Jeep NP208 case, it >-->should bolt in, but may need the clocking ring (I'm about to find out when I >-->hook up my Jeep TH400 to a Chev NP208) >--> What is the weight of the Mercedes diesel? I've seen that the turbo motor >-->is easier to bolt in that non-turbo. Silly guy is rerouting the XJ to rack >-->and pinion steering though. I warned him what's going to happen on the >-->bumps! It's not terribly hard to build an adapter. If I had access to a >-->Mercedes (to see about the centerline/level of the engine for clocking and >-->the splash plate between motor and trans for the bolt pattern) and the >-->correct measuring tools, it would take all of a day or 2 to make the pattern >-->and a 1 off (with the right CAD operated program). >--> Maybe drop the guys at Novak a line? why not let me know when you're in the area so I can let my family know you'll be snooping around, and then just come on over... I have a turbo and non-turbo mercedes sitting over by my shop right now. :) john >--> >--> >-->so, Jim, did you see the costs? >--> >-->let's say for instance that I want to drop my 6.2L V8 Diesel and 700r4 into >-->a late '80's Grand Wagoneer... without switching axles I could use >-->a Jeep NP208 or reclock it/change some stuff on it, or buy an adapter to >-->mate the 700r4 to the stock Jeep xfr case... >--> >-->any idea of cost of these mounts and that xfr case adapter? :) >-->(the gears are twisting... ;) >--> >-->another "popcorn" thought is to put a Mercedes 3.0L Diesel into >-->an XJ, mating to it's AW4 tranny... mounts? Adapter? >--> >-->thanx, >-->john >--> >-->On Sun, 2 Jan 2005, Jim Blair wrote: >-->http://www.off-roadweb.com/tech/0312or_jeepower/ >-->http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/fsj_swap.htm >-->http://www.bjsoffroad.com/cartgenie/prodInfo.asp?pid=503&cid=25 >--> >--> >--> ---- >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** >--> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:16:15 -0600 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: Re: engine rebuilder note This is getting a bit dated and I wish he'd add the info missing re: Amsoil and the others but here is what I'm basing my purchase on. I don't think he's paid off at all and indeed he was threatened with legal action as I recall... truth-tellers frequently are... http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html I have thought seriously about using Shell Rotella 15W40 as I can buy it in 5 gallon drums while I have to go to 10 different WalMarts to buy the stupid MaxLife in the 5Qt containers. They aggrivate me to death. They'll stock 20 facings of that crap oil that they couldn't possibly sell much of and the Valvoline MaxLife 10w40 is nearly ALWAYs empty. Besides that I hate feeding communists though the gov't has seen to the fact that there is no way out of this unless you just stop buying anything. Jim Blair wrote: >A: I can throw a feeler out on the AMC-list for you. Those guys are REAL >picky what's done to their motors and know who to stay far FAR away from! I >run Delo 15W40 diesel quality dino oil. It has zinc, so it plates things for >that extra slippery feeling. Seems to keep everything from wearing as fast >or leaking as much in the high mileage rigs I run it in. The synth does a >superior job at holding the crud and cleaning things up. I would question >the filter a little more closely as NAPA/Wix/Delco are the highest quality >rated by SAE and those guys aren't paid off!~ > > >Yeah, I doubt they did the oil galley work. >I found a shop in KY (closer) who does AMC race engines. I will >investigate them in the future.... >Having read some info on a website where the guy had taken many >different brands of oil filters and essentially dissected them, I RUN >from Fram filters now. Using Mobil 1 filters at $11 a pop, though I >just cannot justify the oil expense. >Honestly though, I prefer the dino oil. The synthetic stuff looked >dirty when checking the oil after only a few hundred miles. The ol' >Valvoline MaxLife still looks clean after 1000 miles. >Maybe that's my misinterpretation... maybe the synth is doing the better >job? >Oh well, I still cannot afford $35 oil changes when they get done. In >the long term synth may be cheaper but I can pop out $20 out of pocket >for an oil change every 3 months or so easier than I can $35 even if it >is only done every 6 months or so. >Oil pressure looks really good and is very responsive since I did as >Vince suggested and swapped that spring/cap/plunger assembly in that he >had just bought for the Rez. > > - -- Apparently common sense is a finite resource. Unfortunately the population continues to expand. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee Laredo - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 09:03:32 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engine_Conversion_Mounts_=BB_Conversion_Engine_Mounts_=BB_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?FSJ_=BB_Small_Block_Chevy_Motor_Mounts?= "Jim Blair" said: {- http://www.bjsoffroad.com/cartgenie/prodInfo.asp?pid=503&cid=25 From: "Jim Blair" To: "me" Subject: fsj: Chev to Jeep conversion links Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:13:21 -0800 {- http://www.off-roadweb.com/tech/0312or_jeepower/ {- http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/fsj_swap.htm Umm, could you include better link descriptions next time? At least the second one had a general thing in the subject line. I suppose the first one _technically_ did, but the junk that actually went through looked like... well, junk, to avoid inappropriate language. It's nice to have a description of the link right by the actual link, in the body... Or is it just me? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heisenberg was driving down the Autobahn whereupon he was pulled over by a policeman. The policeman asked, "Do you know how fast you were going back there?" Heisenberg replied, "No, but I know where I am." - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:38:26 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engine_Conversion_Mounts_=BB_Conversion_Engine_Mounts_=BB_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?FSJ_=BB_Small_Block_Chevy_Motor_Mounts?= On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, Dan Black wrote: >-->"Jim Blair" said: >-->{- http://www.bjsoffroad.com/cartgenie/prodInfo.asp?pid=503&cid=25 >--> >-->From: "Jim Blair" >-->To: "me" >-->Subject: fsj: Chev to Jeep conversion links >-->Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:13:21 -0800 >--> >-->{- http://www.off-roadweb.com/tech/0312or_jeepower/ >-->{- http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/fsj_swap.htm >--> >-->Umm, could you include better link descriptions next time? At least the >-->second one had a general thing in the subject line. I suppose the first >-->one _technically_ did, but the junk that actually went through looked >-->like... well, junk, to avoid inappropriate language. >--> >-->It's nice to have a description of the link right by the actual link, in >-->the body... >--> >-->Or is it just me? no, it's not just you... thank you... jim comes up with a lot of information, sometimes it just needs to be sorted out a bit... what gets me is his posts from the coke snorting list out here... you have to register on snort.com or whatever it is to see who posted what... I'm signed up for way too many lists already... so jim ends up having to cut and paste the details again... he's quite helpful about it though... john >--> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> Heisenberg was driving down the Autobahn whereupon he was pulled over >--> by a policeman. The policeman asked, "Do you know how fast you were >--> going back there?" Heisenberg replied, "No, but I know where I am." >-->-------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2332 **************************