From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Feb 17 07:31:59 2005 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, February 17 2005 Volume 01 : Number 2368 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Re: OT transmission (fwd) Re: fsj: Re: shackle reversal fsj: Re: shackle reversal Re: fsj: Dana 44 Question Re: fsj: shackle reversal Re: fsj: shackle reversal Re: fsj: shackle reversal Re: fsj: shackle reversal fsj: Re: Re: shackle reversal Re: fsj: shackle reversal FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:50:49 -0500 (EST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: OT transmission (fwd) On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Brad Seevers wrote: >--> >-->Lucky guy! Wish I was! >--> >-->Parts shouldn't be a prob at all then. I know, he's telling me about how easy it is to get bolts undone from the bumpers and stuff... he's a very happy camper in that regard... but he still misses it up here. :) john >--> >-->> thanx for the info! btw, >-->> he's in Tucson... Arizona. ;) >-->> >-->> john >-->> >-->> On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Brad Seevers wrote: >-->> >-->> >-->I would hafta agree with Jim. A truck 4 speed >-->> would >-->> >-->be a very unsatisfactory combo in a car. The >-->> T150 >-->> >-->that Jim mentions is a pretty darn good 3 speed >-->> trans, >-->> >-->and is known for its strength. It was used in >-->> Jeeps >-->> >-->as well as ford cars, pickups, broncos, and >-->> vans. >-->> >-->Matched with an overdrive, it could be a cool >-->> combo. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Ford also used several variants of the >-->> T176/T177/T178 >-->> >-->transmission. This is a 4 speed without a granny >-->> low. >-->> >-->Its biggest drawback is it uses a cast aluminum >-->> >-->housing, but not the thin ribbed housings of >-->> other >-->> >-->aluminum housed transmissions. The case is >-->> pretty >-->> >-->robust, but not as strong as cast iron. The >-->> ford >-->> >-->versions came in several flavors -- a normal 4 >-->> spd >-->> >-->with a 1:1 direct 4th gear and also an overdrive >-->> >-->version with an overdriven 4th. I don't know >-->> how this >-->> >-->transmission would hold up behind a 460. it was >-->> used >-->> >-->in ford cars, pickups, brocos and vans. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->The ford T150s and T170s all had the normal ford >-->> >-->butterfly bolt pattern and a 6.5" input shaft >-->> >-->stickout. I don't know if the 460 uses that >-->> pattern >-->> >-->or not. Its pretty easy to check, but also >-->> check the >-->> >-->size of the input bearing retainer, as it must >-->> fit >-->> >-->into the bellhousing, and there are different >-->> sizes. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->The Ford T150s and T170s are mostely, if not >-->> all, side >-->> >-->loaders. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->The transmissions I talk about above are pretty >-->> easy >-->> >-->to find in the wrecking yards, and are pretty >-->> cheap. >-->> >-->At least here in the USA. If your son is in >-->> Germany, >-->> >-->well, I have no idea. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->Also, there are probably other transmissions >-->> that may >-->> >-->be a better choice. But when you get into true >-->> car 4 >-->> >-->spds, like the BW T10s and such, they get a lot >-->> harder >-->> >-->to find and the price starts to climb. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->-brad >-->> >--> >-->> >-->--- Jim Blair wrote: >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> The problem is any 4 speed strong enough to >-->> stand >-->> >-->> behind a 460 is going to >-->> >-->> cost beaucoup bucks. If he runs a truck 4 >-->> speed, he >-->> >-->> won't be happy (I tried >-->> >-->> one in my '66 Fairlane with a 428 sideoiler. >-->> Not >-->> >-->> impressed) I ended up with >-->> >-->> a 4 speed (which was really a T150 3 speed >-->> with an >-->> >-->> overdrive attached) and >-->> >-->> that cost me $800! There are lots of C6 >-->> trannies >-->> >-->> around for cheap. I have an >-->> >-->> E4OD in my '91 E350 with 460 and I'll probably >-->> be >-->> >-->> pulling it out (not liking >-->> >-->> to rebuild it at -at-$1200 if the computer isn't >-->> bad) >-->> >-->> and replacing it with a >-->> >-->> C6. I found one in Arlington with a Motorhome >-->> body >-->> >-->> attached for free, but >-->> >-->> lack time to drag it home and scrap it out. >-->> >--> >-->> >-->> ---- >-->> >-->> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** >-->> http://freegift.net ** >-->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't >-->> rust, they mold. >-->> >-->------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> >-->> >--> >--> >--> >--> >-->All your favorites on one personal page ^V Try My Yahoo! >-->http://my.yahoo.com >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://wagoneers.com ** ** http://freegift.net ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:59:18 -0500 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: Re: shackle reversal good points Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Seevers" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 2:06 PM Subject: Re: fsj: Re: shackle reversal > A spring over with stock springs will probably give > you the best ride too, because the flatter the springs > are, the better the ride. Of course, that doesn't > help you in the back much, because the springs are > already over. > > > --- Jim Blair wrote: > > > I wouldn't. If you mean SOA, then that's a > > different story! Use stock > > springs and get -at-7" of lift in front! > > > > > > has anyone done a *front* shackle reversal on their > > FSJ? i figured that > > while i was replacing my springs all the way around, > > i might as well improve > > the ride and handling further by doing a front > > shackle reversal while i was > > at it. > > thoughts? > > > > Neal A. Hoover > > Project '76 J-10 > > Project '96 XJ > > http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 > > - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:58:25 -0500 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: fsj: Re: shackle reversal no, i'm not talking about an SOA conversion. i don't think i want that much lift. this is going to be a working truck, believe it or not. why would you not recommend a shackle reversal? people do it all the time on CJs and YJs to help out ride quality and handling. i was hoping to do the same. i took a quick look at it this morning on my way to work and noticed that is should be fairly straight forward. it would result in a little bit of a caster change, but i think that could be fixed. ??? Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Blair" To: "Neal Hoover" ; "1L" Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:42 PM Subject: Re: shackle reversal > > I wouldn't. If you mean SOA, then that's a different story! Use stock > springs and get -at-7" of lift in front! > > > has anyone done a *front* shackle reversal on their FSJ? i figured that > while i was replacing my springs all the way around, i might as well improve > the ride and handling further by doing a front shackle reversal while i was > at it. > thoughts? > > Neal A. Hoover > Project '76 J-10 > Project '96 XJ > http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 > > - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:07:51 -0500 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: Dana 44 Question yup. Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Seevers" To: "Full Size Jeeps" Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:33 PM Subject: Re: fsj: Dana 44 Question > I think you mean spline count! > > I must really be aging, cuz I'm starting to forget > this stuff. I think it is 30. > > -brad > > --- Dalan Hawker wrote: > > > I have a '87 Wagoneer with Dana 44's front and rear, > > I was wondering if > > anyone can tell me what the sline count is on the > > axles? I am too lazy > > to pull an axle and have a look. I am wanting to > > buy a Powertrax unit > > for it so I need to know. Thanks. > > > > Dalan Hawker > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 > > - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:12:42 -0500 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: shackle reversal Kevin- a few questions: 1 what's a WT? 2 tell me more about these "goodrich velvet-ride shackles." i'm thinking of replacing the shackles anyway, so i'm curious about these. 3 what all is involved with an SOA for FSJs? know of any on-line write-ups off hand? thanks!!!!!!! Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Pekarek" To: "Neal Hoover" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:00 PM Subject: Re: fsj: shackle reversal > On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 07:57:36AM -0500, Neal Hoover wrote: > > has anyone done a *front* shackle reversal on their FSJ? i figured that > > while i was replacing my springs all the way around, i might as well improve > > the ride and handling further by doing a front shackle reversal while i was > > at it. > > thoughts? > > Part of the reason SJs wheel so much better than chevies is the shackle > design. Shackle reversals will make it so you can't do any better than a > K-5 off road. > > Like Jim said, it you want to lift the thing anyways, do an SOA in the > front, which (depending on your springs) will give you anywhere between > a 4-7" lift. Using the stock springs (or even stock WT springs) will give > you a better ride than any lift kit out there. For the rear, you could use > a block to give you the extra lift and still use the stock rpings. If the > back rode too harsh empty, you could install goodrich velvet-ride shackles. > > A friend of a friend lifted his 89 grand wagoneer with nothing more than SOA > front and a block in the rear because he wanted to keep the factory ride. It > really was one sweet riding rig, even with the 33x12.5 muds and locker in > the back. > > K > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 > > - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:28:00 -0800 From: Kevin Pekarek Subject: Re: fsj: shackle reversal On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 07:12:42PM -0500, Neal Hoover wrote: > 1 what's a WT? Shorthand for widetrack, meaning widetrack cherokee - the ones with the bigger flares and such. J trucks had the same track width as widetrack cherokees. Narrow tracks and wagoneers/grand wagoneers had a narrower track width. > 2 tell me more about these "goodrich velvet-ride shackles." i'm thinking > of replacing the shackles anyway, so i'm curious about these. See: http://www.thedieselstop.com/contents/getitems.php3?Velvet%20Ride%20Shackle%20Install for the writeup from a guy who stuck them on a truck like my powerchoke. Basically, they're a shackle for the rear only that serves as a softer spring. When the truck is empty, the heavy duty suspension can kick pretty bad when going over bumps, especially in an F250 or F350. When the truck is loaded, the shackle compresses and the springs work like normal. This is probably overkill for a 1/2 ton, but might be cool if you have a J20 or otherwise heavy duty suspension. (FWIW, the person who had the SOA GW didn't have these on his rig, he used stock wagon springs with a block. He might have added a leaf from another wagon spring pack.) > 3 what all is involved with an SOA for FSJs? know of any on-line write-ups > off hand? Don't know of any writeups online, but am sure there are some. I know of two ways for a pre-80 rig - - get a SOA D44 front axle from a 70's blazer or something. Drop is on the correct side, bolt patterns on the hubs are the same. These are a bit uncommon because the chevy guys stuck with a ten bolt front seem to want them and snap them up. - cut off the spring under perches and weld on new perches on top of the axle. I don't think this is as cut and dry because for some reason, I think the passenger offset pumpkin gets in the way. You also need to know how to weld rather well (don't want the welds breaking), and know how to measure pinion angle so that you don't chew up u-joints. The person with the SOA GW yanked the axle and used his toyota to haul the axle to a four wheel/fab shop and have them do the perch install. Jim Blair will likely have info to add, since he is going to do this to his J10. K ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:25:50 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: shackle reversal Wide track is the same width in front as a pickup (flared fenders are the same too) but the trucks are wider in the rear than the Cherokees. Those velvet ride shackles are interesting, but appear to be a direct ripoff of Revolvers without the swivel. http://www.off-road.com/jeep/reviews/mmr.htm (apologies to John for the D'ORC link) Flipping the rear shackles on an FSJ works well (I did that on my J4000, but the J10 is much tougher). I need a different frame bracket to mount my springs to and want the Colorado K5 rear setup. http://www.coloradok5.com/ordflipreview.shtml For my '83 J10's SOA front, I used a '76 F250 or F350 solid front axle from a Highboy. ('77 to '81-ish are high pinion. Mine wasn't but I wish it was for better driveline angle. '75 and older are closed knuckle. For pre '79 rigs the Chev axle works. I still have one I was going to build up before I bought a J20 one for my J4000) and I swapped the outter end of the J20 axles onto the Ford shafts and then used J20 flat top knuckles, had them drilled for high steer and used http://ottindustries.com high steer arms (others were too flat and hit the springs) with stock FSJ front steering (I'll need to extend the centerlink and draglink slightly for full steering to the right and proper toe-in) It's all hooked up now and working well. I just need to finish the rear shackle flip before I can drop my new motor in. Lack of time and funding has kept me from completing it. (that and when I get days off I'm busy with everyone else's stuff or sick like today) On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 07:12:42PM -0500, Neal Hoover wrote: > 1 what's a WT? Shorthand for widetrack, meaning widetrack cherokee - the ones with the bigger flares and such. J trucks had the same track width as widetrack cherokees. Narrow tracks and wagoneers/grand wagoneers had a narrower track width. > 2 tell me more about these "goodrich velvet-ride shackles." i'm thinking > of replacing the shackles anyway, so i'm curious about these. See: http://www.thedieselstop.com/contents/getitems.php3?Velvet%20Ride%20Shackle%20Install for the writeup from a guy who stuck them on a truck like my powerchoke. Basically, they're a shackle for the rear only that serves as a softer spring. When the truck is empty, the heavy duty suspension can kick pretty bad when going over bumps, especially in an F250 or F350. When the truck is loaded, the shackle compresses and the springs work like normal. This is probably overkill for a 1/2 ton, but might be cool if you have a J20 or otherwise heavy duty suspension. (FWIW, the person who had the SOA GW didn't have these on his rig, he used stock wagon springs with a block. He might have added a leaf from another wagon spring pack.) > 3 what all is involved with an SOA for FSJs? know of any on-line > write-ups > off hand? Don't know of any writeups online, but am sure there are some. I know of two ways for a pre-80 rig - - get a SOA D44 front axle from a 70's blazer or something. Drop is on the correct side, bolt patterns on the hubs are the same. These are a bit uncommon because the chevy guys stuck with a ten bolt front seem to want them and snap them up. - cut off the spring under perches and weld on new perches on top of the axle. I don't think this is as cut and dry because for some reason, I think the passenger offset pumpkin gets in the way. You also need to know how to weld rather well (don't want the welds breaking), and know how to measure pinion angle so that you don't chew up u-joints. The person with the SOA GW yanked the axle and used his toyota to haul the axle to a four wheel/fab shop and have them do the perch install. Jim Blair will likely have info to add, since he is going to do this to his J10. K ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:27:36 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: Re: fsj: shackle reversal A: I have taken pics for an upcoming writeup for FSJ Magazine (I've just been too wrapped up to finish it yet) Kevin- a few questions: 1 what's a WT? 2 tell me more about these "goodrich velvet-ride shackles." i'm thinking of replacing the shackles anyway, so i'm curious about these. 3 what all is involved with an SOA for FSJs? know of any on-line write-ups off hand? thanks!!!!!!! Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:36:33 -0800 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: Re: shackle reversal A: Caster change with axle shims is easy. I still haven't done the rear on my J4000 (I try to keep a load on so I don't have to deal with it at the moment) I like the ride of my J4000 (except the slop in the bushings allow for steering flex and body roll on corners) which is stock SOA. Usually something else is the cause of poor handling in an FSJ. I can't recall if the front of the Wags is reversible (certainly not flippable because it is already under the frame) for ride, but I don't like the feel of Chevs offroad. no, i'm not talking about an SOA conversion. i don't think i want that much lift. this is going to be a working truck, believe it or not. why would you not recommend a shackle reversal? people do it all the time on CJs and YJs to help out ride quality and handling. i was hoping to do the same. i took a quick look at it this morning on my way to work and noticed that is should be fairly straight forward. it would result in a little bit of a caster change, but i think that could be fixed. ??? Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:35:08 -0500 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: shackle reversal heck, if i were going to do a rear shackle flip, i should have done it when i had to rebuild the left rear shackle hanger that was rusted off to begin with!!! http://community.webshots.com/photo/117503613/117505536dFyAcZ http://community.webshots.com/photo/117503613/117505952smtZfE just a quick question WRT rear shackle flips, how are the resulting incorrect driveline angles typically handled? with shims? Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Blair" To: "Kevin Pekarek" ; "1L" Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 1:25 AM Subject: Re: fsj: shackle reversal > Wide track is the same width in front as a pickup (flared fenders are the > same too) but the trucks are wider in the rear than the Cherokees. Those > velvet ride shackles are interesting, but appear to be a direct ripoff of > Revolvers without the swivel. http://www.off-road.com/jeep/reviews/mmr.htm > (apologies to John for the D'ORC link) Flipping the rear shackles on an FSJ > works well (I did that on my J4000, but the J10 is much tougher). I need a > different frame bracket to mount my springs to and want the Colorado K5 rear > setup. http://www.coloradok5.com/ordflipreview.shtml > For my '83 J10's SOA front, I used a '76 F250 or F350 solid front axle > from a Highboy. ('77 to '81-ish are high pinion. Mine wasn't but I wish it > was for better driveline angle. '75 and older are closed knuckle. For pre > '79 rigs the Chev axle works. I still have one I was going to build up > before I bought a J20 one for my J4000) and I swapped the outter end of the > J20 axles onto the Ford shafts and then used J20 flat top knuckles, had them > drilled for high steer and used http://ottindustries.com high steer arms > (others were too flat and hit the springs) with stock FSJ front steering > (I'll need to extend the centerlink and draglink slightly for full steering > to the right and proper toe-in) > It's all hooked up now and working well. I just need to finish the rear > shackle flip before I can drop my new motor in. Lack of time and funding has > kept me from completing it. (that and when I get days off I'm busy with > everyone else's stuff or sick like today) > > > > On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 07:12:42PM -0500, Neal Hoover wrote: > > 1 what's a WT? > > Shorthand for widetrack, meaning widetrack cherokee - the ones with the > bigger > flares and such. J trucks had the same track width as widetrack cherokees. > Narrow tracks and wagoneers/grand wagoneers had a narrower track width. > > > 2 tell me more about these "goodrich velvet-ride shackles." i'm thinking > > of replacing the shackles anyway, so i'm curious about these. > > See: > http://www.thedieselstop.com/contents/getitems.php3?Velvet%20Ride%20Shackle%20Install > > for the writeup from a guy who stuck them on a truck like my powerchoke. > > Basically, they're a shackle for the rear only that serves as a softer > spring. > When the truck is empty, the heavy duty suspension can kick pretty bad when > going over bumps, especially in an F250 or F350. When the truck is loaded, > the shackle compresses and the springs work like normal. > > This is probably overkill for a 1/2 ton, but might be cool if you have a J20 > or otherwise heavy duty suspension. (FWIW, the person who had the SOA GW > didn't > have these on his rig, he used stock wagon springs with a block. He might > have > added a leaf from another wagon spring pack.) > > > 3 what all is involved with an SOA for FSJs? know of any on-line > > write-ups > > off hand? > > Don't know of any writeups online, but am sure there are some. I know of two > ways for a pre-80 rig - > - get a SOA D44 front axle from a 70's blazer or something. Drop is on > the correct side, bolt patterns on the hubs are the same. These are a > bit > uncommon because the chevy guys stuck with a ten bolt front seem to want > them and snap them up. > - cut off the spring under perches and weld on new perches on top of the > axle. I don't think this is as cut and dry because for some reason, I > think the passenger offset pumpkin gets in the way. You also need to > know > how to weld rather well (don't want the welds breaking), and know how to > measure pinion angle so that you don't chew up u-joints. > > The person with the SOA GW yanked the axle and used his toyota to haul the > axle to a four wheel/fab shop and have them do the perch install. > > Jim Blair will likely have info to add, since he is going to do this to his > J10. > > K > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 > > - -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/05 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2368 **************************