From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Jul 19 10:37:55 2005 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, July 19 2005 Volume 01 : Number 2477 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: [db] Audi American Le Mans fsj: ...was manifold gaskets, now runs bad... fsj: 4.0L engine issues fsj: Re: 4.0L engine issues fsj: Re: ...was manifold gaskets, now runs bad... fsj: Re: ...was manifold gaskets, now runs bad... fsj: RE: ...was manifold gaskets, now runs bad... fsj: Re: xj: 4.0L engine issues fsj: Re: manifold gaskets FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:53:12 -0700 From: john meister Subject: fsj: Re: [db] Audi American Le Mans chuck wrote: > Diesels have a long history in motor racing. I heard a rumor that chuck is planning on entering a more modern Cummins into the Cannonball next year... problem is he's having trouble fitting it into his Jetta. I've suggested a 126 series 300SD, but we're not sure we'll be able to find suitable motor mounts... And there might be a problem fitting both turbos in as well... hmmm... I wonder if a Full Size Jeep might be a better platform... check it out: http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/CARS/chucks-toy/the-cummins.jpg http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/CARS/chucks-toy/chuck-n-cummins.jpg :) john chuck goolsbee wrote: > At 3:00 PM -0700 7/18/05, Kevin wrote: > >> (as to the previous diesel comment though, audi ran a v10 diesel in >> lemans, >> but bailed early due to clutch problems. it's supposed to be back this >> year, >> haven't heard one way or the other yet. it should have no problems >> dominating >> a four or six hour race over here, though, as the clutch lasted just a >> bit >> longer than that). > > > Diesels have a long history in motor racing. > > This car: > > > ...apparently ran the Indy 500, without a pitstop. > > That photo was taken at the Amelia Island Concours in 2001. I'm not a > "car show" kind of guy, but the Amelia event is an astounding collection > of cars, presented very well. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:55:21 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: ...was manifold gaskets, now runs bad... Well it makes little sense but these kinds of things always happen to me. I've gotten the exhaust manifold installed, sealed and that much is fine. It seems to work with the copper loaded silicone gasket maker. No real "gasket". But seems to have sealed fine. Thanks for the info guys! BUT. It has taken to not really wanting to run. Now this truck was running well enough when I started this little exhaust manifold adventure. But suddenly, it seems to be like this. It starts, and will sit and warm up , rough tho... and will drive a little, but gags and chokes at the slightest load on the throttle... Long-story short... have replaced plugs, coil, wires, cap, rotor, checked Intake manifold bolts (several loose), Checked for vacumn leaks (nothing of note), Ran through all the exhast manifold bolts again, Checked timing and it seems odd, not stable, kind of hard to set. and it doesn't want to set to "spec" I've got to set the timing high a bit to make it run half way decent.... Beginning to wonder if it doesn't have a broken valve spring or a sticking valve or something along those lines. What do those act like? I DID notice something odd about the plugs when I pulled them. They were all black, and I already know the mixture is definitely rich. I need to get the smaller jet set, whatever it is for the Edlebrock... one day... but what matters for the most part is that the plugs looked generally good, and all were similar excepting the #8 plug again. Looks really crappy. Has looked crappy before, changed, then once later when checked it looked good, but now again it looks really bad. There is an accumulation of crud perfectly formed along only one side wall of the tip. Otherwise the tip is kind of burned black like the others. Maybe actually a little tannish... But there is this weird crud attached to the side of the tip and bends around with it making the tip essentially appear to be twice as wide as normal. Similar buildup on the same side of the electrode and ceramic center parts. The "other side" of the tip has nearly nothing coating it, just the black coloring... Comments and clues desperately needed. This is my daily driver and it ain't... I cannot explain how important it is that I get this thing running.... I guess I'll investigate carb, maybe pull the top off and see if the bowls are full of crud or something.... don't know how it could be, it runs dual filters... Maybe I picked up some water? I could try one of my spare brain boxes, but i don't think that is it... I've got a few, worth a try... Potentially could be a pickup coil assy., so I'll replace that I guess... Better do a compression check on the right bank anyway to see what i see... Maybe need to change a fuel filter? Other Ideas anyone? JeepNut ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:08:04 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: 4.0L engine issues the saga of the '92 sport 4.0L continues... it's getting better, but it's not there yet. original symptoms were anything over 45mph would cause terribly rough running, almost undriveable... replaced: - all plugs - spark plug wires - cap / rotor - coil - all injectors - vacuum harness - throttle position sensor - map sensor The only things I haven't replaced are the dist'r coil pickup, the crank position sensor, the O2 sensor and the engine itself. No error codes are indicated at this point. I haven't run it back up to Schucks to have it tested after replacing the last round of parts. :) It has always run great at full throttle. But it wants to shudder when cruising at speed and a slight load is put on it. It's worse in OD with the TC locked up, but does it in Drive as well. It's also idling rough and the shudder/miss happens just off idle as well. The check engine light is off, but comes on if I disconnect the TPS. I couldn't find the relay assy for the maintenance required light, so I removed the bulb. The emissions testers look for the check engine light, which still behaves as desired. The things starts easily, idles without problems (a little rough at times), doesn't stall at all, and has plenty of power. I haven't done a compression test yet, but I'm not sure if that'll point anything out... except maybe a bad valve or something, but that should show up in the plugs, and the plugs told a different story... except for #6, which was oily, but I attributed that to the clogged vacuum harness/breather. It's driveable, but I wouldn't want to drive it very far this way... guess I'll take it to jim startups and see if he can figure it out... one good thing is it'll come with lots of spare parts. ;) Anyone in the area is welcome to drop by and test drive it and see if they can guess better than me... ;) (hey where's Alan Chung when you need him? :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:41:21 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: 4.0L engine issues They USED to check for the light. Now they plug in, and in the HO, ALL previous error codes come up and they can even say your rig is a gross polluter if certain old codes come up with OBDII. the saga of the '92 sport 4.0L continues... it's getting better, but it's not there yet. original symptoms were anything over 45mph would cause terribly rough running, almost undriveable... replaced: - all plugs - spark plug wires - cap / rotor - coil - all injectors - vacuum harness - throttle position sensor - map sensor The only things I haven't replaced are the dist'r coil pickup, the crank position sensor, the O2 sensor and the engine itself. No error codes are indicated at this point. I haven't run it back up to Schucks to have it tested after replacing the last round of parts. :) It has always run great at full throttle. But it wants to shudder when cruising at speed and a slight load is put on it. It's worse in OD with the TC locked up, but does it in Drive as well. It's also idling rough and the shudder/miss happens just off idle as well. The check engine light is off, but comes on if I disconnect the TPS. I couldn't find the relay assy for the maintenance required light, so I removed the bulb. The emissions testers look for the check engine light, which still behaves as desired. The things starts easily, idles without problems (a little rough at times), doesn't stall at all, and has plenty of power. I haven't done a compression test yet, but I'm not sure if that'll point anything out... except maybe a bad valve or something, but that should show up in the plugs, and the plugs told a different story... except for #6, which was oily, but I attributed that to the clogged vacuum harness/breather. It's driveable, but I wouldn't want to drive it very far this way... guess I'll take it to jim startups and see if he can figure it out... one good thing is it'll come with lots of spare parts. ;) Anyone in the area is welcome to drop by and test drive it and see if they can guess better than me... ;) (hey where's Alan Chung when you need him? :) john ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 02:43:11 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: Re: ...was manifold gaskets, now runs bad... Clogged cat will now act up because the only other source of exhaust escape is blocked off. Well it makes little sense but these kinds of things always happen to me. I've gotten the exhaust manifold installed, sealed and that much is fine. It seems to work with the copper loaded silicone gasket maker. No real "gasket". But seems to have sealed fine. Thanks for the info guys! BUT. It has taken to not really wanting to run. Now this truck was running well enough when I started this little exhaust manifold adventure. But suddenly, it seems to be like this. It starts, and will sit and warm up , rough tho... and will drive a little, but gags and chokes at the slightest load on the throttle... Long-story short... have replaced plugs, coil, wires, cap, rotor, checked Intake manifold bolts (several loose), Checked for vacumn leaks (nothing of note), Ran through all the exhast manifold bolts again, Checked timing and it seems odd, not stable, kind of hard to set. and it doesn't want to set to "spec" I've got to set the timing high a bit to make it run half way decent.... Beginning to wonder if it doesn't have a broken valve spring or a sticking valve or something along those lines. What do those act like? I DID notice something odd about the plugs when I pulled them. They were all black, and I already know the mixture is definitely rich. I need to get the smaller jet set, whatever it is for the Edlebrock... one day... but what matters for the most part is that the plugs looked generally good, and all were similar excepting the #8 plug again. Looks really crappy. Has looked crappy before, changed, then once later when checked it looked good, but now again it looks really bad. There is an accumulation of crud perfectly formed along only one side wall of the tip. Otherwise the tip is kind of burned black like the others. Maybe actually a little tannish... But there is this weird crud attached to the side of the tip and bends around with it making the tip essentially appear to be twice as wide as normal. Similar buildup on the same side of the electrode and ceramic center parts. The "other side" of the tip has nearly nothing coating it, just the black coloring... Comments and clues desperately needed. This is my daily driver and it ain't... I cannot explain how important it is that I get this thing running.... I guess I'll investigate carb, maybe pull the top off and see if the bowls are full of crud or something.... don't know how it could be, it runs dual filters... Maybe I picked up some water? I could try one of my spare brain boxes, but i don't think that is it... I've got a few, worth a try... Potentially could be a pickup coil assy., so I'll replace that I guess... Better do a compression check on the right bank anyway to see what i see... Maybe need to change a fuel filter? Other Ideas anyone? JeepNut ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:51:58 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: Re: ...was manifold gaskets, now runs bad... heh, heh, heh, .... what's a cat?... free flowing as the breeze Mr. Jim.... Jim Blair wrote: >Clogged cat will now act up because the only other source of exhaust escape >is blocked off. > > > >Well it makes little sense but these kinds of things always happen to me. >I've gotten the exhaust manifold installed, sealed and that much is fine. >It seems to work with the copper loaded silicone gasket maker. No real >"gasket". But seems to have sealed fine. Thanks for the info guys! >BUT. >It has taken to not really wanting to run. >Now this truck was running well enough when I started this little >exhaust manifold adventure. But suddenly, it seems to be like this. >It starts, and will sit and warm up , rough tho... and will drive a >little, but gags and chokes at the slightest load on the throttle... >Long-story short... have replaced plugs, coil, wires, cap, rotor, >checked Intake manifold bolts (several loose), Checked for vacumn leaks >(nothing of note), Ran through all the exhast manifold bolts again, >Checked timing and it seems odd, not stable, kind of hard to set. and >it doesn't want to set to "spec" I've got to set the timing high a bit >to make it run half way decent.... > >Beginning to wonder if it doesn't have a broken valve spring or a >sticking valve or something along those lines. What do those act like? > >I DID notice something odd about the plugs when I pulled them. They >were all black, and I already know the mixture is definitely rich. I >need to get the smaller jet set, whatever it is for the Edlebrock... one >day... but what matters for the most part is that the plugs looked >generally good, and all were similar excepting the #8 plug again. Looks >really crappy. Has looked crappy before, changed, then once later when >checked it looked good, but now again it looks really bad. There is an >accumulation of crud perfectly formed along only one side wall of the >tip. Otherwise the tip is kind of burned black like the others. Maybe >actually a little tannish... But there is this weird crud attached to >the side of the tip and bends around with it making the tip essentially >appear to be twice as wide as normal. Similar buildup on the same side >of the electrode and ceramic center parts. The "other side" of the tip >has nearly nothing coating it, just the black coloring... > >Comments and clues desperately needed. This is my daily driver and it >ain't... I cannot explain how important it is that I get this thing >running.... > >I guess I'll investigate carb, maybe pull the top off and see if the >bowls are full of crud or something.... don't know how it could be, it >runs dual filters... >Maybe I picked up some water? >I could try one of my spare brain boxes, but i don't think that is it... >I've got a few, worth a try... >Potentially could be a pickup coil assy., so I'll replace that I guess... >Better do a compression check on the right bank anyway to see what i see... >Maybe need to change a fuel filter? > >Other Ideas anyone? > > JeepNut > > > > > - -- This mail subject to change without notice. Text is slightly enlarged to show detail. No substitutions allowed. - ---------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer '92 Cherokee Laredo '87 Grand Wagoneer (parts) '81 Wagoneer (parts) ...and they say there's only one... - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:46:54 -0700 From: Tesar Landon-r16884 Subject: fsj: RE: ...was manifold gaskets, now runs bad... Please check the big vacuum lines, including plugging them off, brake booster, and pcv valve. Do you hear a lot of hissing when it's running? - - Landon - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of JeepNut Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 12:55 AM To: Full Size Jeeps Subject: fsj: ...was manifold gaskets, now runs bad... Well it makes little sense but these kinds of things always happen to me. I've gotten the exhaust manifold installed, sealed and that much is fine. It seems to work with the copper loaded silicone gasket maker. No real "gasket". But seems to have sealed fine. Thanks for the info guys! BUT. It has taken to not really wanting to run. Now this truck was running well enough when I started this little exhaust manifold adventure. But suddenly, it seems to be like this. It starts, and will sit and warm up , rough tho... and will drive a little, but gags and chokes at the slightest load on the throttle... Long-story short... have replaced plugs, coil, wires, cap, rotor, checked Intake manifold bolts (several loose), Checked for vacumn leaks (nothing of note), Ran through all the exhast manifold bolts again, Checked timing and it seems odd, not stable, kind of hard to set. and it doesn't want to set to "spec" I've got to set the timing high a bit to make it run half way decent.... Beginning to wonder if it doesn't have a broken valve spring or a sticking valve or something along those lines. What do those act like? I DID notice something odd about the plugs when I pulled them. They were all black, and I already know the mixture is definitely rich. I need to get the smaller jet set, whatever it is for the Edlebrock... one day... but what matters for the most part is that the plugs looked generally good, and all were similar excepting the #8 plug again. Looks really crappy. Has looked crappy before, changed, then once later when checked it looked good, but now again it looks really bad. There is an accumulation of crud perfectly formed along only one side wall of the tip. Otherwise the tip is kind of burned black like the others. Maybe actually a little tannish... But there is this weird crud attached to the side of the tip and bends around with it making the tip essentially appear to be twice as wide as normal. Similar buildup on the same side of the electrode and ceramic center parts. The "other side" of the tip has nearly nothing coating it, just the black coloring... Comments and clues desperately needed. This is my daily driver and it ain't... I cannot explain how important it is that I get this thing running.... I guess I'll investigate carb, maybe pull the top off and see if the bowls are full of crud or something.... don't know how it could be, it runs dual filters... Maybe I picked up some water? I could try one of my spare brain boxes, but i don't think that is it... I've got a few, worth a try... Potentially could be a pickup coil assy., so I'll replace that I guess... Better do a compression check on the right bank anyway to see what i see... Maybe need to change a fuel filter? Other Ideas anyone? JeepNut ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 09:40:49 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: xj: 4.0L engine issues On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 gzempich-at-cox.net wrote: >-->What about your cat or muffler, could be back pressure. the guy had a new cat and muffler put on it... but then again... However, it doesn't behave like a clogged converter, been there, done that... they are totally gutless and top speed drops.. :) john >--> >-->> >-->> From: john >-->> Date: 2005/07/19 Tue AM 02:08:04 EDT >-->> To: full size jeep list , xj-list >-->> CC: Jeepbuilder-at-comcast.net, Alan Chung , >-->> ABCvoice-at-worldnet.att.net, Meister Mark C Amn 612 ACOMS/SCSSP >-->> >-->> Subject: xj: 4.0L engine issues >-->> >-->> the saga of the '92 sport 4.0L continues... >-->> >-->> it's getting better, but it's not there yet. >-->> >-->> original symptoms were anything over 45mph would cause terribly rough running, >-->> almost undriveable... >-->> >-->> replaced: >-->> - all plugs >-->> - spark plug wires >-->> - cap / rotor >-->> - coil >-->> - all injectors >-->> - vacuum harness >-->> - throttle position sensor >-->> - map sensor >-->> >-->> The only things I haven't replaced are the dist'r coil pickup, the crank position >-->> sensor, the O2 sensor and the engine itself. >-->> >-->> No error codes are indicated at this point. I haven't run it back up to >-->> Schucks to have it tested after replacing the last round of parts. :) >-->> >-->> It has always run great at full throttle. But it wants to shudder when >-->> cruising at speed and a slight load is put on it. It's worse in OD with >-->> the TC locked up, but does it in Drive as well. >-->> >-->> It's also idling rough and the shudder/miss happens just off idle as well. >-->> >-->> The check engine light is off, but comes on if I disconnect the TPS. >-->> >-->> I couldn't find the relay assy for the maintenance required light, so >-->> I removed the bulb. The emissions testers look for the check engine light, >-->> which still behaves as desired. >-->> >-->> The things starts easily, idles without problems (a little rough at times), >-->> doesn't stall at all, and has plenty of power. >-->> >-->> I haven't done a compression test yet, but I'm not sure if that'll point >-->> anything out... except maybe a bad valve or something, but that should show >-->> up in the plugs, and the plugs told a different story... except for #6, which >-->> was oily, but I attributed that to the clogged vacuum harness/breather. >-->> >-->> It's driveable, but I wouldn't want to drive it very far this way... guess >-->> I'll take it to jim startups and see if he can figure it out... one good thing >-->> is it'll come with lots of spare parts. ;) >-->> >-->> Anyone in the area is welcome to drop by and test drive it and see if they >-->> can guess better than me... ;) (hey where's Alan Chung when you need him? :) >-->> >-->> john >-->> >-->> ---- >-->> >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-->> ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** >-->> Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >-->> ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** >-->> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com ** Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold ** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html ** - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:37:11 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Re: manifold gaskets Greg is right, you have to re-torque periodically. Here's my method. 1. Get the manifold flattened at a machine shop. 2. Install the manifold with new flat and lock washers, torqueing evenly as you go. Make sure that the y-pipe is disconnected from the manifolds and not interfereing with their alignment. 3. Re-torque following successively longer run times for the next year. 4. If you can't achieve a seal using the above method get the copper gaskets and start over with #1. The copper gaskets are probably designed to fill pits that might have been worn in the head by previous exhaust leaks. I've found that it does that better when you re-torque a hot engine, but it's not much fun. Remember to use a new lock washer every time and find flat washers that are thick enough not to distort. I've used Grade 5 bolts, but anything over Grade 3 is really overkill. The manifolds are supposed to seal with the bolts torqued to something on the order of 25 ft.lbs. I frequently use my shop vac to test for leaks before I ever even get the rig out of the garage by setting it up to "blow" and duct taping it to the exhaust pipe. Make sure the shop vac is clean first so you don't blow a bunch of junk into your engine. Ben In a message dated 7/18/2005 10:23:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net writes: From: Greg Loxtercamp I'd be interested in finding out exactly why those bolt have holes in them...but, I suspect it's an expansion thing. Pertaining to the gaskets, I never had luck with them...They worked until the bolts loosened up, then the gaskets would start burning away until there was nothing left. I had the best luck with some high-temp gasket rtv...I think I use the copper stuff (for exhaust manifolds/headers) from Permatex...of course, I think you still have to re-tourque periodically, else it will burn away as well. ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2477 **************************