From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Nov 19 22:25:03 2006
From: fsj-digest <owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net>
fsj-digest Monday, November 20 2006 Volume 01 : Number 2737
Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps
Brian Colucci <ABCvoice-at-worldnet.att.net>
Digest Coordinator
Contents:
fsj: Jeepmakeover
Re: fsj: Jeepmakeover
Re: fsj: Jeepmakeover
Re: fsj: Jeepmakeover
fsj: stuff for sale (in Seattle)
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Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 08:11:20 -0800
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck1-at-msn.com>
Subject: fsj: Jeepmakeover
To editors of Popular Mechanics
http://www.popularmechanics.com/marketing/jeepmakeover
Congrats on the practical upgrade for an old Jeep! Being a FSJ owner myself
I applaud your effort and would like to hear how it's doing still.
I have been in the working stages of upgrading my own rig (1984 J10
pickup) to run liquid propane fuel injection with a slightly more modern
4.0L modified to 4.6L and running the AW4 automatic with a 4:1 transfercase.
A pic of it from awhile back can be seen at http://virtualjeep.com as it has
been a work in progress for nearly 6 years now.
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Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:47:28 -0800 (PST)
From: john <john-at-wagoneers.com>
Subject: Re: fsj: Jeepmakeover
REF: http://www.popularmechanics.com/marketing/jeepmakeover
Interesting article Jim shared with us... but wait, doesn't the front
end of the durango have design issues? didn't they have a recall
for bad balljoints? aren't they coil springs up front? oh wait,
it's that "independent" front suspension... absolutely wonderful
on a deeply rutted trail... for hanging up...
see specs: http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/VehicleCompare.jsp
Independent front suspension is the first thing to go on a serious
4x4 setup of toyota, chevy or any other vehicle... the ground
clearance may be greater on paper, but not on a trail...
This is where DC lost it on the Jeep line... the KJ was the first
then the WK (where'd the J go???) it's not a Jeep any more, it's
lost it... independent front suspension may improve life on the
street, but follow me up trail 198 down at Evans Creek with it...
http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/198.jpg
http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/john1.jpg
http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/john2.jpg
http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/mt-rainier.jpg
Unless you've got 33" tires on your rig you'll be coming through
on a tow strap or cheating and putting logs in the ruts to get
through... while a Jeep with as little as 2" of lift and 30" tires
can get through.
...even a Jeep needs help on the 198 if the tires are less than 29":
http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/alan2.jpg
the four runners got stuck even with much larger tires though...
Another thing, Dodge frames aren't exactly known for their strength
any more... I wouldn't call the Dakota solid or sturdy... and as far as either
being a good 4x4 chassis... excuse me while I think back to pulling
my neighbor's 4x4 Dakota up the driveway... anyone that's been to my place
knows what I had to do to get UP to help him on the easy part...
http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/driveway.jpg
http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/halfway.jpg
http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/dakota.jpg
http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/saturdaydrive.jpg
(entire story here: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/escape.html (this is the one that
got me in that Jeep video... along with: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/18wheels.html )
And aren't there pictures of durangos on the internet stuck in various places...
I'd take a stock FSJ or XJ over either any day and run any trail with less trouble...
So, what's to upgrade??? axles on an '81 and up SJ are fine, actually,
'74 and up... disc brakes in front, large drums (11") in the rear,
easily converted to rear discs if that's your gig...
So, axles and frame ain't the gig...
The ONLY issue with a Wagoneer is the boat anchor, fuel sucking,
heat producing, high nickel content engine and pathetic automatic
transmission... so, rather than spend 10's of thousands on a durango
for it's engine, which is NOTHING to get excited about either, unless
it's a newer one with the 4.7L V8; the 5.2 and 5.9 are the older style
318/360 Chryslers with push rods but the enhancement of fuel injection.
(unless they've redesigned those when I wasn't paying attention, which
is the case since I don't look at things like this usually...)
Why not convert an AMC 360 to fuel injection and add an updated
transmission? It'd be cheaper... and less hassle... Unless you've
got your head full of mush and are somehow impressed with the
word "Magnum" or "Hemi". Glory days stuff that ain't no more...
Would be way cheaper to build up an AMC V8 despite their weight
and inefficiency. I would opt for a better V8 than either the
Dodge or the AMC, 4.7L V8 excluded, but that was originally
designed for the Jeep WJ.
And that old "elephant power" torqueflite ain't what they put into our
FSJs... total junk as configured... what moron decided that you
shouldn't route the trans fluid to the cooler while in park? I burned
up a working 727 thinking I was cooling it down... if I'd known I
would have idled it in neutral...
While the idea of dropping an FSJ body on a Durango is interesting,
it's a waste of time and money to get an inferior frame setup...
get a decent engine/trans and spend the money on an adapter to use
a Jeep transfer case and axles... Or maybe put the more nicely
equipped (debatable) Durango body on the FSJ... use a J10 chassis
to solve the wheelbase problem... (119") Of course if you use
the Durango body you get a really cheap looking interior and incredibly
bad visibility. The biggest draw of the FSJ design in the "panascopic vision".
Brooke Stevens really had the "vision". If the WJ had that one feature,
along with everything it has now, it would be the perfect Jeep.
Even if you don't know what you're doing you should be able to put a different
engine and trans into an FSJ without having to redo the driveshafts... just
anchor the xfr case location on it's crossmember and move the rest of the
stuff around... unless you've got a much larger engine, say a 6.2L
Diesel (379 cubes) or a longer transmission... and even that might still
work with some repositioning of the motor mounts and radiator... and some
"gentle" rearrangement of the firewall with objects weighing four to
eight pounds... :) (That's the way I put that 3.8L Buick V6 into
a Chevy Luv... didn't have to mess with the drivelines either..., and
then I put that same 3.8L/Th350 setup into a '67 Wagoneer with an
adapter to the Dana 20 and didn't have to mess with the drivelines...)
Anyway, interesting idea, but inferior base to execute the task...
If I was going to do a driveline upgrade on an FSJ and I wasn't resource
constrained, I'd grab a WJ's 4.7L V8, 45RFE, NV247 (Quadradrive) and
consider swapping the guts out of the Dana 44s or even the axles, although
that take a lot more effort reworking the mounts, and then you'd still have a weaker
rear axle housing from the WJ... the Quadradrive is superb, but the installation
of Electrax fore and aft would give you essentially the same solution with
more control and less trouble. The 4.7L V8 is the best V8 I've ever
owned... superbly smooth and powerful engine... would be quite happy
in an FSJ... Maybe after the 6.2L Diesel is in Superdawg I'll start looking
for a 4.7L setup for Omega... still tempted to get a 240D driveline for the
CJ-2A, or a 2.5L I-6 Turbo Diesel out of a 201 or 124 and put it into an XJ...
get the popcorn ready... the gears are turning... just as soon as I get the current
batch of projects done and grad school finished...
john meister
1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo (WJ) 4.7L V8/45RFE/NV 247 (Quadradrive)
1991 Mercedes 300D (124) 2.5L Turbo Diesel/AT(Shadowfax)
1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer (SJ) 5.9/727/np229 (Omega)
1990 Jeep Cherokee (XJ) 4.0/AW4/np242
1983 Jeep J10 Stepside (SJ) (Superdawg) was 4.2L I-6/T-5/NP208 --> 6.2L/700R4/NP219
1975 Jeep J10 (SJ)Bed/trailer hydraulic dump
1967 Jeep J100 (SJ)Panel (Rambo)
1948 Willys CJ-2A 2.0L/T90/Spicer 18 (Alpha)
1947 Willys CJ-2A 2.0L/T90/Spicer 18 (for sale)
http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html
----
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com **
Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold
** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html **
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 21:43:39 -0800
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck1-at-msn.com>
Subject: Re: fsj: Jeepmakeover
You didn't pay too close of attention or you would've noticed that's a 5.7L
hemi in there. (Not too bad of a track record so far, but it ain't your
granpa's hemi! 20 mpg in an FSJ isn't too unlikely. I know of a Wrangler
that was done and gets almost 25 on the highway!) The front axle can be
retro-upgraded to solid again and the later Durango frame seems to do
alright, even in collisions.
You forget about the '80 (78?) up Wagoneer, Cherokee and Grand Wagoneer's
penchant for rotting out the frame behind the gas tank. The 727 in these
rigs was softened up for the "refined" driving of Grand Wagoneer owners. The
no fluid flowing in park has been around since the start. (Actually, park
was added as an after thought to the shift linkage. My cable shift '64
Polara had a lever for park separate from the gear selector. I removed the
Detent so I could do engine torque up and launch by pulling the park lever
when the light on the "christmas" tree hit green. <G>) Before '61 (?) you
would put the trans in neutral and set the ebrake.
REF: http://www.popularmechanics.com/marketing/jeepmakeover
Interesting article Jim shared with us... but wait, doesn't the front
end of the durango have design issues? didn't they have a recall
for bad balljoints? aren't they coil springs up front? oh wait,
it's that "independent" front suspension... absolutely wonderful
on a deeply rutted trail... for hanging up...
see specs: http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/VehicleCompare.jsp
Independent front suspension is the first thing to go on a serious
4x4 setup of toyota, chevy or any other vehicle... the ground
clearance may be greater on paper, but not on a trail...
This is where DC lost it on the Jeep line... the KJ was the first
then the WK (where'd the J go???) it's not a Jeep any more, it's
lost it... independent front suspension may improve life on the
street, but follow me up trail 198 down at Evans Creek with it...
http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/198.jpg
http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/john1.jpg
http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/john2.jpg
http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/mt-rainier.jpg
Unless you've got 33" tires on your rig you'll be coming through
on a tow strap or cheating and putting logs in the ruts to get
through... while a Jeep with as little as 2" of lift and 30" tires
can get through.
...even a Jeep needs help on the 198 if the tires are less than 29":
http://wagoneers.com/JEEPS/trail-reports/laborday98/alan2.jpg
the four runners got stuck even with much larger tires though...
Another thing, Dodge frames aren't exactly known for their strength
any more... I wouldn't call the Dakota solid or sturdy... and as far as
either
being a good 4x4 chassis... excuse me while I think back to pulling
my neighbor's 4x4 Dakota up the driveway... anyone that's been to my place
knows what I had to do to get UP to help him on the easy part...
http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/driveway.jpg
http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/halfway.jpg
http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/dakota.jpg
http://www.wagoneers.com/.images/saturdaydrive.jpg
(entire story here: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/escape.html (this is the one
that
got me in that Jeep video... along with:
http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/18wheels.html
)
And aren't there pictures of durangos on the internet stuck in various
places...
I'd take a stock FSJ or XJ over either any day and run any trail with less
trouble...
So, what's to upgrade??? axles on an '81 and up SJ are fine, actually,
'74 and up... disc brakes in front, large drums (11") in the rear,
easily converted to rear discs if that's your gig...
So, axles and frame ain't the gig...
The ONLY issue with a Wagoneer is the boat anchor, fuel sucking,
heat producing, high nickel content engine and pathetic automatic
transmission... so, rather than spend 10's of thousands on a durango
for it's engine, which is NOTHING to get excited about either, unless
it's a newer one with the 4.7L V8; the 5.2 and 5.9 are the older style
318/360 Chryslers with push rods but the enhancement of fuel injection.
(unless they've redesigned those when I wasn't paying attention, which
is the case since I don't look at things like this usually...)
Why not convert an AMC 360 to fuel injection and add an updated
transmission? It'd be cheaper... and less hassle... Unless you've
got your head full of mush and are somehow impressed with the
word "Magnum" or "Hemi". Glory days stuff that ain't no more...
Would be way cheaper to build up an AMC V8 despite their weight
and inefficiency. I would opt for a better V8 than either the
Dodge or the AMC, 4.7L V8 excluded, but that was originally
designed for the Jeep WJ.
And that old "elephant power" torqueflite ain't what they put into our
FSJs... total junk as configured... what moron decided that you
shouldn't route the trans fluid to the cooler while in park? I burned
up a working 727 thinking I was cooling it down... if I'd known I
would have idled it in neutral...
While the idea of dropping an FSJ body on a Durango is interesting,
it's a waste of time and money to get an inferior frame setup...
get a decent engine/trans and spend the money on an adapter to use
a Jeep transfer case and axles... Or maybe put the more nicely
equipped (debatable) Durango body on the FSJ... use a J10 chassis
to solve the wheelbase problem... (119") Of course if you use
the Durango body you get a really cheap looking interior and incredibly
bad visibility. The biggest draw of the FSJ design in the "panascopic
vision".
Brooke Stevens really had the "vision". If the WJ had that one feature,
along with everything it has now, it would be the perfect Jeep.
Even if you don't know what you're doing you should be able to put a
different
engine and trans into an FSJ without having to redo the driveshafts... just
anchor the xfr case location on it's crossmember and move the rest of the
stuff around... unless you've got a much larger engine, say a 6.2L
Diesel (379 cubes) or a longer transmission... and even that might still
work with some repositioning of the motor mounts and radiator... and some
"gentle" rearrangement of the firewall with objects weighing four to
eight pounds... :) (That's the way I put that 3.8L Buick V6 into
a Chevy Luv... didn't have to mess with the drivelines either..., and
then I put that same 3.8L/Th350 setup into a '67 Wagoneer with an
adapter to the Dana 20 and didn't have to mess with the drivelines...)
Anyway, interesting idea, but inferior base to execute the task...
If I was going to do a driveline upgrade on an FSJ and I wasn't resource
constrained, I'd grab a WJ's 4.7L V8, 45RFE, NV247 (Quadradrive) and
consider swapping the guts out of the Dana 44s or even the axles, although
that take a lot more effort reworking the mounts, and then you'd still have
a
weaker
rear axle housing from the WJ... the Quadradrive is superb, but the
installation
of Electrax fore and aft would give you essentially the same solution with
more control and less trouble. The 4.7L V8 is the best V8 I've ever
owned... superbly smooth and powerful engine... would be quite happy
in an FSJ... Maybe after the 6.2L Diesel is in Superdawg I'll start looking
for a 4.7L setup for Omega... still tempted to get a 240D driveline for the
CJ-2A, or a 2.5L I-6 Turbo Diesel out of a 201 or 124 and put it into an
XJ...
get the popcorn ready... the gears are turning... just as soon as I get the
current
batch of projects done and grad school finished...
john meister
_________________________________________________________________
Get the latest Windows Live Messenger 8.1 Beta version. Join now.
http://ideas.live.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 22:07:46 -0800 (PST)
From: john <john-at-wagoneers.com>
Subject: Re: fsj: Jeepmakeover
hemi, shmemi... not impressed... test drove the WJs with
the hemi, it was fast/smooth, but not that much more than the 4.7,
and the 4.7 gets better mileage...
why would I want to go through all that trouble to swap axles
after swapping a frame and body... besides frame rot is
only an issue for the poor souls that have to suffer salted roads...
:)
john
On Sat, 18 Nov 2006, Jim Blair wrote:
> -->You didn't pay too close of attention or you would've noticed that's a 5.7L
> -->hemi in there. (Not too bad of a track record so far, but it ain't your
----
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
** http://JohnMeister.com **** http://wagoneers.com **
Snohomish, Washington USA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold
** http://freegift.net *** http://greatcom.org/laws/languages.html **
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 22:14:06 -0800
From: "Jim Blair" <carnuck-at-hotmail.com>
Subject: fsj: stuff for sale (in Seattle)
Tonight I sat down and figured out I need to sell off any big stuff I don't
need. Namely the 327 Nash Jeep motor (from an -at-'66 Wagoneer) or any parts
thereof. I have the flexplate and adapter ring to hook it up to a TH400
along with the starter and exhaust manifolds. Only a couple pieces missing
off it and that is the PS and AC brackets (look the same as the ones on my
'73 J4000's original motor) and 2 bbl carb. Open to offers complete or parts
thereof. (I have a working nailhead TH400 that is due for overhauling but
still functions that will be coming out of my J4000 as soon as I can get to
it)
401/360/304 to nailhead TH400 bell adapter ring with crank spacer and 304
flexplate will be available at that time as well. (didn't require a special
starter) I forgot my camera or I'd have pics of it all.
Another thing I have for sale is a FSJ 6 cyl motor mount setup. (good for
converting a V8 rig to run a 4.2L or 4.0L) I have the frame horns and engine
brackets along with Energy Suspension motor mounts to fit. Asking $100 obo
for the setup (mounts are brand new)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/DSC02507.jpg
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------------------------------
End of fsj-digest V1 #2737
**************************