From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jul 25 23:18:07 2007 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, July 26 2007 Volume 01 : Number 2892 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: imbalance in the system... Re: fsj: comparing dimensions fsj: nuclear vs. renewable... Re: fsj: semi-OT: nuclear vs. renewable... Re: fsj: semi-OT: nuclear vs. renewable... fsj: more 230 OHC history Re: fsj: semi-OT: nuclear vs. renewable... Re: fsj: semi-OT: nuclear vs. renewable... fsj: your thoughts? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:04:24 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: imbalance in the system... oh no... this could cause time-space continum problems... not sure this is such a good thing... ;) we might be ok as long as curtis stays down there... if all three of us are too close that could be very, very bad... kevin is two states away, jon is in texas, jim in wisconsin, fred and jason are on the wrong coast, further maintaining a good balance.... if anyone else moves closer existence as we know it could be jeparodized... :) the monster carport phenomenon is infectious... ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Jim Blair wrote: # Actually, a pair of narrower axles and a bob of the frame will make it work # quite nicely. I already have an XJ rear diff. # # Oh, and I'm actually moving closer to you! Right in the peak of the I-5 and # I-405! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:52:07 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: comparing dimensions so, let's see, 16+16 = 32, right? see honey, we're saving money... :) ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Kevin wrote: # On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 11:34:52PM -0700, john wrote: # > just thinking out loud... trying to decide: # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/91GW_950/91GW_200/ - 16 mpg on Diesel/veggie oil # > http://wagoneers.com/XJ/rigs/XJ-2001/ - 16 mpg on gas # # Both :) # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:39:14 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: nuclear vs. renewable... just saw this article... makes electric power seem the most likely for vehicles... http://www.world-science.net/othernews/070724_renewable.htm chernobyl not withstanding... ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:57:14 CDT From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: semi-OT: nuclear vs. renewable... john said: {- just saw this article... makes electric power seem {- the most likely for vehicles... {- {- http://www.world-science.net/othernews/070724_renewable.htm {- {- chernobyl not withstanding... He has a few points, but, like most people with an agenda, he's proclaiming extremes. Most of the loud, activist environmentalists today either have an agenda or just want to complain about anything they hear about without even attempting to provide a solution or compromise. I definitely think all-electric for cars is the best solution. (At least until they get Mr. Fusion into production.) That way, you can use batteries that are charged from whatever different sources, whether those end up being wind, photoelectric, nuclear, coal (*shudder*), other fossil fuels (*shudder* again), burning waste, whatever. Plus, they're quiet, and there are _no_ by-products (pollutants) coming from the car. (Even the hydrogen produces water, which they'll quickly realize can still affect ecosystems, and I think would attract animals _to_ the road, which we don't want.) Waste from the central power plants could be contained much more easily. The batteries for electric cars are already close to good enough (though expensive), and with more research and mass production and distribution, they'll improve them well enough very quickly. Putting electric motors on the wheels would, I believe, result in many improvements. No more heavy drivelines (probably more than make up for the batteries you'd have to haul), easier suspension, much easier wiring (just power and a control signal), easy to program traction control and ASB, easy to include regenerative brakes... And you could buy a 1-wheel-wonder in Arizona, then figure out you're moving to Iowa and need 2-, 3-, or 4-wheel drive, and simply add them on. Or add more powerful ones for heavy hauling or rock crawling. Probably easier to get some clever suspension options, too, since you just have to lengthen the wires instead of figuring out the whole drive train. Ideally, they'd also make the wheel motors mostly interchangeable, and they'd come up with some sort of standard for battery trays so you could have them automatically swapped at service stations when going on long trips. Of course, the competing car manufacturers would never let that kind of standardization happen. :P - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Help, help, I'm being repressed!! -- Monty Python - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:04:29 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: semi-OT: nuclear vs. renewable... there was a kid in san antonio that converted his XJ to electric, had about a 100 mile range... cost over $10k. He put the electric motor right to the transmission, filled the engine bay and cargo area with batteries... ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Dan Black wrote: # john said: # {- just saw this article... makes electric power seem # {- the most likely for vehicles... # {- # {- http://www.world-science.net/othernews/070724_renewable.htm # {- # {- chernobyl not withstanding... # # He has a few points, but, like most people with an agenda, he's # proclaiming extremes. # # Most of the loud, activist environmentalists today either have an agenda # or just want to complain about anything they hear about without even # attempting to provide a solution or compromise. # # I definitely think all-electric for cars is the best solution. (At # least until they get Mr. Fusion into production.) That way, you can use # batteries that are charged from whatever different sources, whether # those end up being wind, photoelectric, nuclear, coal (*shudder*), other # fossil fuels (*shudder* again), burning waste, whatever. # # Plus, they're quiet, and there are _no_ by-products (pollutants) coming # from the car. (Even the hydrogen produces water, which they'll quickly # realize can still affect ecosystems, and I think would attract animals # _to_ the road, which we don't want.) Waste from the central power # plants could be contained much more easily. # # The batteries for electric cars are already close to good enough (though # expensive), and with more research and mass production and distribution, # they'll improve them well enough very quickly. # # Putting electric motors on the wheels would, I believe, result in many # improvements. No more heavy drivelines (probably more than make up for # the batteries you'd have to haul), easier suspension, much easier wiring # (just power and a control signal), easy to program traction control and # ASB, easy to include regenerative brakes... And you could buy a # 1-wheel-wonder in Arizona, then figure out you're moving to Iowa and # need 2-, 3-, or 4-wheel drive, and simply add them on. Or add more # powerful ones for heavy hauling or rock crawling. Probably easier to # get some clever suspension options, too, since you just have to lengthen # the wires instead of figuring out the whole drive train. # # Ideally, they'd also make the wheel motors mostly interchangeable, and # they'd come up with some sort of standard for battery trays so you could # have them automatically swapped at service stations when going on long # trips. Of course, the competing car manufacturers would never let that # kind of standardization happen. :P # # ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- # Help, help, I'm being repressed!! # -- Monty Python # -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:31:02 -0700 From: "Jim Blair" Subject: fsj: more 230 OHC history From: Frank Swygert Subject: Re: [Amc-list] 230 OHC (was off topic but: Ford Torino) To: amc-list-at-amc-list.com Message-ID: <46A7875A.90609-at-att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Two totally different engines! The Poncho OHC was produced from 66-69 and based on the Chevy six block (I'm pretty sure the block casting is different for the OHC though). Pontiac may have taken some inspiration from the Kaiser engine. Andrew is correct -- the 380 does refer to 3.8L, the W designates the three Weber carbs. 380 hp *would* be quite a feat! After looking back over my own article research, I found that the Nurburgring cars developed 290 hp. It was bored to 3950cc and had the three Webers. The street version was around 220-230 hp. But I knew there was something about 380 hp and the Torino six! A 385 hp 4.0L version was used in an Argentine F1 car in the early 70s. The Tornado engine was used through 1972, the name was changed to Torino (for the engine) when it was revised for seven mains instead of four. The head design was also revised. The F1 car used a Torino engine, and most likely was turbocharged. I only found one pic, and it didn't show the engine well enough to say for sure, but most F1 cars were back then. _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 23:50:59 +0000 From: "michel balea" Subject: Re: fsj: semi-OT: nuclear vs. renewable... EV1, comes to mind... have you seen the movies (bad movie but good expose) who killed the electric car...... I have been lurking thru some sites..... the biggest drawback is the type of batteries w max output/charging..... Nimh... which by total random act.... is a patent bought by Chevron from GM/Ovonics ..... which will not release any rights to increase the capacity beyond the 30-40ish miles range.... from what i understand.... it was tweaked w the late EV1 to about 110-140 miles some examples of backyard design http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1149 http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm then the industrials... w the s-10 ($8K for the battery pack alone) http://www.evbones.com/battery.html Yahoo groups.... electric_vehicles_for_sale who is blaming who..... very tricky.... John has mentioned the eternal question: who is telling the whole/real/fake truth, whose interests are deserved..... Nuclear is good... as long as you can deal w the waste... and the french going all nuclear.... created a challenge... the reactors are cooled w sodium....and you know that sodium and water do not mix in a quiet manner.... it is very exothermic.... which was the big deal last year or 2 years ago when they decommissioned a plant that contains.... about 15,000 gallons of liquid sodium..... cheers Michel From: john there was a kid in san antonio that converted his XJ to electric, had about a 100 mile range... cost over $10k. He put the electric motor right to the transmission, filled the engine bay and cargo area with batteries... ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Dan Black wrote: # john said: # {- just saw this article... makes electric power seem # {- the most likely for vehicles... # {- # {- http://www.world-science.net/othernews/070724_renewable.htm # {- # {- chernobyl not withstanding... # # He has a few points, but, like most people with an agenda, he's # proclaiming extremes. # # Most of the loud, activist environmentalists today either have an agenda # or just want to complain about anything they hear about without even # attempting to provide a solution or compromise. # # I definitely think all-electric for cars is the best solution. (At # least until they get Mr. Fusion into production.) That way, you can use # batteries that are charged from whatever different sources, whether # those end up being wind, photoelectric, nuclear, coal (*shudder*), other # fossil fuels (*shudder* again), burning waste, whatever. # # Plus, they're quiet, and there are _no_ by-products (pollutants) coming # from the car. (Even the hydrogen produces water, which they'll quickly # realize can still affect ecosystems, and I think would attract animals # _to_ the road, which we don't want.) Waste from the central power # plants could be contained much more easily. # # The batteries for electric cars are already close to good enough (though # expensive), and with more research and mass production and distribution, # they'll improve them well enough very quickly. # # Putting electric motors on the wheels would, I believe, result in many # improvements. No more heavy drivelines (probably more than make up for # the batteries you'd have to haul), easier suspension, much easier wiring # (just power and a control signal), easy to program traction control and # ASB, easy to include regenerative brakes... And you could buy a # 1-wheel-wonder in Arizona, then figure out you're moving to Iowa and # need 2-, 3-, or 4-wheel drive, and simply add them on. Or add more # powerful ones for heavy hauling or rock crawling. Probably easier to # get some clever suspension options, too, since you just have to lengthen # the wires instead of figuring out the whole drive train. # # Ideally, they'd also make the wheel motors mostly interchangeable, and # they'd come up with some sort of standard for battery trays so you could # have them automatically swapped at service stations when going on long # trips. Of course, the competing car manufacturers would never let that # kind of standardization happen. :P # # - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- # Help, help, I'm being repressed!! # -- Monty Python # -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org - -------------- # _________________________________________________________________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:43:32 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: semi-OT: nuclear vs. renewable... electric motors on each wheel makes sense with regenerative braking, on board generator and even hydraulic pumps as a means of getting moving... solar panels... there's a number of ways of getting more efficiency... weight reduction is the biggest step... basic laws of physics are still in force. :) john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, michel balea wrote: # # EV1, comes to mind... have you seen the movies (bad movie but good expose) # who killed the electric car...... I have been lurking thru some sites..... # # the biggest drawback is the type of batteries w max output/charging..... # Nimh... which by total random act.... is a patent bought by Chevron from # GM/Ovonics ..... which will not release any rights to increase the capacity # beyond the 30-40ish miles range.... from what i understand.... it was tweaked # w the late EV1 to about 110-140 miles # # some examples of backyard design # # http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1149 # # http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main2.htm # # then the industrials... w the s-10 ($8K for the battery pack alone) # # http://www.evbones.com/battery.html # # Yahoo groups.... # electric_vehicles_for_sale # # who is blaming who..... very tricky.... # John has mentioned the eternal question: who is telling the whole/real/fake # truth, whose interests are deserved..... # # Nuclear is good... as long as you can deal w the waste... and the french # going all nuclear.... created a challenge... the reactors are cooled w # sodium....and you know that sodium and water do not mix in a quiet manner.... # it is very exothermic.... which was the big deal last year or 2 years ago # when they decommissioned a plant that contains.... about 15,000 gallons of # liquid sodium..... # # cheers # # Michel # # # # # # From: john # # there was a kid in san antonio that converted his XJ to electric, # had about a 100 mile range... cost over $10k. He put the electric # motor right to the transmission, filled the engine bay and cargo # area with batteries... # # # ----- # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Dan Black wrote: # # # john said: # # {- just saw this article... makes electric power seem # # {- the most likely for vehicles... # # {- # # {- http://www.world-science.net/othernews/070724_renewable.htm # # {- # # {- chernobyl not withstanding... # # # # He has a few points, but, like most people with an agenda, he's # # proclaiming extremes. # # # # Most of the loud, activist environmentalists today either have an agenda # # or just want to complain about anything they hear about without even # # attempting to provide a solution or compromise. # # # # I definitely think all-electric for cars is the best solution. (At # # least until they get Mr. Fusion into production.) That way, you can use # # batteries that are charged from whatever different sources, whether # # those end up being wind, photoelectric, nuclear, coal (*shudder*), other # # fossil fuels (*shudder* again), burning waste, whatever. # # # # Plus, they're quiet, and there are _no_ by-products (pollutants) coming # # from the car. (Even the hydrogen produces water, which they'll quickly # # realize can still affect ecosystems, and I think would attract animals # # _to_ the road, which we don't want.) Waste from the central power # # plants could be contained much more easily. # # # # The batteries for electric cars are already close to good enough (though # # expensive), and with more research and mass production and distribution, # # they'll improve them well enough very quickly. # # # # Putting electric motors on the wheels would, I believe, result in many # # improvements. No more heavy drivelines (probably more than make up for # # the batteries you'd have to haul), easier suspension, much easier wiring # # (just power and a control signal), easy to program traction control and # # ASB, easy to include regenerative brakes... And you could buy a # # 1-wheel-wonder in Arizona, then figure out you're moving to Iowa and # # need 2-, 3-, or 4-wheel drive, and simply add them on. Or add more # # powerful ones for heavy hauling or rock crawling. Probably easier to # # get some clever suspension options, too, since you just have to lengthen # # the wires instead of figuring out the whole drive train. # # # # Ideally, they'd also make the wheel motors mostly interchangeable, and # # they'd come up with some sort of standard for battery trays so you could # # have them automatically swapped at service stations when going on long # # trips. Of course, the competing car manufacturers would never let that # # kind of standardization happen. :P # # # # # ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- # # Help, help, I'm being repressed!! # # -- Monty Python # # -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org # -------------- # # # # _________________________________________________________________ # http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 # # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 23:14:39 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: your thoughts? ok popcorn crowd... giving serious thought to a couple of xj limiteds... still trying to decide if I'm keeping the 124 and the FSJ, or getting an XJ... found a '98 Limited with tan interior, but has a few issues... and the '01 with dark gray interior, in pretty decent shape, it's at: http://wagoneers.com/XJ/rigs/XJ-2001/ book value is around 9 to 10k... seat heater is marginal, leather worn, front fender damaged, tires are ok, but worn... this is a pnw vehicle, rust isn't an option... 130,000 highway miles, one owner... no mechanical issues mentioned... engine looks dusty... what kind of highway??? any idea of pricing? the '98 is much cheaper than this one, no pictures yet... the owner has a lot of spelling errors in his ad... so I'm nervous on the '98's condition... the '01 owner is pretty sharp... long time jeep owner, obviously a professional... both vehicles are a couple of hours away so it's not easy to check them out... especially with the final exam for tmgt 616 saturday. ;) so, it's either buy a nice XJ or spend the money on fixing my '91 Grand Wagoneer... that is as soon as it gets released from the black hole... no idea of when that will happen... I may have lost another jeep... dang... :( that'll be four consumed by the black hole... ;) actually only expect two to escape... stand on the edge from time to time and look at them... waiting, waiting... can see 'em, but they won't follow me home... either way, gotta have a jeep... ;) A Mercedes Diesel is great but it's not a Jeep... ;) on the '91 GW I'll need to spend about $500 on the seats, about $1200 on body work... lots of interior items that aren't perfect, but might be able to swap them with the '89.... probably for around $2 to 3k I'll have Omega setup nicely... but how much time? and when I'm done, what will I have? http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/91GW_950/91GW_200/ The plan has been to get the '91 GW fitted with the 6.2L Diesel, I have no idea what the status is at this point... last word was fittings on the radiator... that was three weeks ago... left messages, sent emails... not even an echo when I leave a message. ;) looking at the pictures of the '91 interior there is a lot of work needed to bring it up to a nice vehicle... and the body issues... while the '01 XJ is pretty much a done deal... would add a warn winch mount to the front, nerf bars and call it good... 16 mpg in town on gas... the '91 GW will get between 16 and 18 mpg in town with the 6.2L Diesel. the xj will get 21 on the road... suspect the GW will get 19 to 20 on the freeway... veggie oil or gas? full size or xj? old or new? interestingly enough... both are the last year models... omega, and omega jr. OJ... ;) I've even gone so far as to attempt to create a weighted matrix to help in my indecision... ;) http://wagoneers.com/tmp/decision-matrix.pdf I put up a couple of "fleece tests" so far, and they're falling in place... first was leather seats... then the power lumbar... the next and last is if they'll accept an offer... I'm afraid they'll accept it though... they've been trying to sell for a while... and of course if someone makes me an offer on Shadowfax and can pick it up in Portland, well, that lines up all the cogs just perfectly... stranger things have happened.... as anyone who knows me can attest to... :) btw, I picked up some nice Act II popcorn... pretty decent... :) was munching on cheerios this evening... supposedly better for lowering cholesterol. ;) in my defense I would like to state that if I were not dependent upon the generosity and assistance of others that these decisions would be far easier to make... but having to wait on others creates a much more complicated scenario. :) But it does have some entertainment and educational value. I've learned a lot about the '97 and up Cherokee XJs... Also picked up some info on Mercedes Diesels used in recent models and how they might just work in a Jeep too... but that's another bag of popcorn. :) at this point it's possible that the fleet will expand before it contracts... munch, munch... the only certainty at this point is the keeping of the WJ, and the uncertainty of the rest... :) john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2892 **************************