From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Aug 20 10:24:12 2007 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, August 20 2007 Volume 01 : Number 2905 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: xj or sj fsj: Grizzly Lake Trip report & pics fsj: market for rust free grand wags? Re: fsj: Grizzly Lake Trip report & pics fsj: Re: xj: Re: xj or sj fsj: RE: Shorty Headers and Cherokee Plans Re: fsj: RE: Shorty Headers and Cherokee Plans fsj: thoughts on this xj (or why an FSJ seems too big) RE: fsj: market for rust free grand wags? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 23:44:04 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: xj or sj that is the question... SJ or XJ? A modified SJ may be preferred to an XJ... :) benefits of SJ: - superb visibility *** - great towing rigs *** - body on frame - nice ride (usually) - plenty of room - classic - easy to modify - usually good seats - easy to lift benefits of XJ: - NIMBLE *** - easy to park *** - great on trails *** - excellent handling *** - modular parts, easy to replace - good visibility - easy to lift - uniframe - adequate room negatives of SJ: - tailgate (not always an issue) - poor economy in stock setup - poor quality of interior - hard to find solid, excellent versions - hard to find someone to work on them - lots of potential rust issues - heavy negatives of XJ: - a bit dated - cheapness to some of them - noisy - not economical, but better than an SJ - seats break easily, some are uncomfortable - quality can be an issue I guess the question comes down to what do I really want... and can I live with the perpetual maintenance requirements of the SJ? Of course if economy wasn't a consideration then a WJ would be preferred... almost... visibility and nimbleness of the XJ is better... and of course, panascopic vision is the best of all... let's hope the Diesel conversion setup works out... or I'll be selling both Grand Wagoneers and shopping for a nice XJ limited. or maybe another WJ... we'll see... keep the popcorn buttered y'all. john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:11:49 -0600 From: Michael Shimniok Subject: fsj: Grizzly Lake Trip report & pics Howdy! Thought you might enjoy a recent FSJ related story :) I and a pal of mine from CFSJA and a buddy of his went down to St. Elmo (ghost town) area here in Colorado last weekend. Man, what a great time. Not only did we not have any FSJ breakdowns (unless you count the Jeepster and even then it was very minor) but had a great time on a moderately hard trail leading up through some gorgeous mountain scenery up to Grizzly Lake which sits in a gulch between two huge mountain ridges. Add to that some really fun fly fishing for wild, brilliantly colored brook trout, a good time sitting around the campfire later that night, and falling asleep to the rain on the tent, and you wind up with one heck of a great weekend. :) The trip down was just as pretty, fun, and thankfully, without major incident. The full write up and some pics are over here in case you're bored. :) http://tc.wagoneer.net/sblog/index.php? entry=entry070819-120350 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:07:28 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: market for rust free grand wags? considering the success of wagonmasters and the apparent success of wagoneer world, what kind of market is really out there for fully restored Grand Wagoneers? If I took this '89 and had it detailed, interior upgraded/replaced carpet, rebuilt the engine, etc.... what kind of price could I realistically expect to market it for??? It's not cheap to do a full restoration. Even with friend's help and my own wrenching one often gets buried in the project and can't sell it for the total... but if the price is way up there, in the high 20's, low 30's, it's almost affordable... if I had the engine professionally rebuilt to stock and installed I'm looking at close to 3K, paint is good, just needs detailing, the interior will need the most work, probably a couple of grand... means I'll be into this thing about $6k... what's a nice clean rust free wagoneer getting these days? maybe 12K? 7? john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:43:36 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Grizzly Lake Trip report & pics awesome pix and story... need bigger pictures!!! :) if only they didn't salt the roads there... ;) thanx for sharing... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 19 Aug 2007, Michael Shimniok wrote: # Howdy! Thought you might enjoy a recent FSJ related story :) I and a pal of # mine from CFSJA and a buddy of his went down to St. Elmo (ghost town) area # here in Colorado last weekend. Man, what a great time. Not only did we not # have any FSJ breakdowns (unless you count the Jeepster and even then it was # very minor) but had a great time on a moderately hard trail leading up # through some gorgeous mountain scenery up to Grizzly Lake which sits in a # gulch between two huge mountain ridges. Add to that some really fun fly # fishing for wild, brilliantly colored brook trout, a good time sitting around # the campfire later that night, and falling asleep to the rain on the tent, # and you wind up with one heck of a great weekend. :) The trip down was just # as pretty, fun, and thankfully, without major incident. The full write up # and some pics are over here in case you're bored. :) # http://tc.wagoneer.net/sblog/index.php?entry=entry070819-120350 # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:30:38 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: xj: Re: xj or sj considering the price of Diesel even an SJ with a 6.2L Diesel getting 18-20mpg in town will cost more than an XJ getting 16-18 in town... test drove a '99 limited a little bit ago... factory sun roof, leather interior... terrible tires, bad brakes, but one owner... also the other really, really bad thing about it... red. :( but it's not flame red or maroon, it's called sienna... toned down red... kind of... http://wagoneers.com/XJ/rigs/XJ-1999 needs to be cleaned up a bit... got home, had, or tried to have the wife sit in the '89 Grand Wagoneer... she was pretty grossed out... thing is the '89 is probably in better shape than my '91... and she's ridden in it... overall feel is nicer in the xj, even with the bad tires/brakes... will probably sell the Benz if the xj works out... still waiting for my GW... the '89 GW will probably be fully restored and sold to pay for a wedding... the '91 with the 6.2L might be cool, and if it is I can always sell the '99 XJ limited... not sure what I'll do if my '83 j10 is ever finished... loved that truck... too bad it was dismantled so quickly... really irritating... just want it back together so I can get it home... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 19 Aug 2007, Don Hansen wrote: # Economy's a consideration and you're considering an SJ???? # Can you say "2150"?...............................! # # -Don # # ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" # To: "full size jeep list" ; "xj-list" # Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 11:44 PM # Subject: xj: xj or sj # # # > that is the question... SJ or XJ? # > # > A modified SJ may be preferred to an XJ... :) # > benefits of SJ: # > - superb visibility *** # > - great towing rigs *** # > - body on frame # > - nice ride (usually) # > - plenty of room # > - classic # > - easy to modify # > - usually good seats # > - easy to lift # > # > benefits of XJ: # > - NIMBLE *** - easy to park *** - great on trails *** - excellent handling # > *** - modular parts, easy to replace # > - good visibility # > - easy to lift # > - uniframe # > - adequate room # > # > negatives of SJ: # > - tailgate (not always an issue) # > - poor economy in stock setup # > - poor quality of interior # > - hard to find solid, excellent versions # > - hard to find someone to work on them # > - lots of potential rust issues # > - heavy # > # > negatives of XJ: # > - a bit dated - cheapness to some of them # > - noisy # > - not economical, but better than an SJ # > - seats break easily, some are uncomfortable # > - quality can be an issue # > # > # > I guess the question comes down to what do I really want... and # > can I live with the perpetual maintenance requirements of the SJ? # > # > Of course if economy wasn't a consideration then a WJ would be # > preferred... almost... visibility and nimbleness of the XJ is # > better... and of course, panascopic vision is the best of all... # > # > let's hope the Diesel conversion setup works out... or I'll # > be selling both Grand Wagoneers and shopping for a nice XJ limited. or # > maybe another WJ... we'll see... # > # > keep the popcorn buttered y'all. # > # > # > john # > ----- # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 21:51:14 -0500 From: "Zee Man" Subject: fsj: RE: Shorty Headers and Cherokee Plans The header install went surprisingly well, two weeks earlier i had 2 1/4 duals put on and the exhaust guy left that annoying heat flapper thingy on the passanger side. because of that i had to spend about 3 hours total just lining up the manifold/ gasket/ heat flapper/ flange on passanger side. drivers side was cake,, although its double gasketted because of the donut the exhaust guy used. Yes i didnt need to remove the heater core. I will say those headers are easier to install then the stock manifolds.It is also much easier to install the headers on the jeep then my 77 Gremlin 401, The passangerside can not be put on withought lifting the engine partially out. I used the paper gasket for now until i return from deploment and get some nice locking bolts and copper gaskets... My jeep is whisper quiet now(this week), surprising for headers..( I will still need to retorque header bolts... my n ext plan is just getting a slow leak in front tire fixed and getting my u-joints lubed. I will start looking at the lift from BJ's that will return it to stock ride height I would like too get some 31's for it.. now front end is sitting a too low. If i wanted to put on 33's a 4 inch lift should do it. If i get one of those kits from BJ's with everything what else do i need? will i have to worry about the driveshafts not being long enough? will there be alignment problems? Any inputs? Sorry i need to ask noob questions. I would probably be better sticking with stock kit, but i would like to see some 33's on it one day before it rusts away thanks Rob 78 Cherokee Chief 77 Gremlin 04 Wrangler Rubicon _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more^E.then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=950607&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 20:08:20 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Shorty Headers and Cherokee Plans 4" shouldn't require driveline mods... just be sure to get the right shims in the rear spring pack. :) john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 19 Aug 2007, Zee Man wrote: # The header install went surprisingly well, two weeks earlier i had 2 1/4 # duals put on and the exhaust guy left that annoying heat flapper thingy on # the passanger side. because of that i had to spend about 3 hours total just # lining up the manifold/ gasket/ heat flapper/ flange on passanger side. # drivers side was cake,, although its double gasketted because of the donut # the exhaust guy used. # Yes i didnt need to remove the heater core. I will say those headers are # easier to install then the stock manifolds.It is also much easier to install # the headers on the jeep then my 77 Gremlin 401, The passangerside can not be # put on withought lifting the engine partially out. # I used the paper gasket for now until i return from deploment and get some # nice locking bolts and copper gaskets... My jeep is whisper quiet now(this # week), surprising for headers..( # I will still need to retorque header bolts... my n ext plan is just getting a # slow leak in front tire fixed and getting my u-joints lubed. I will start # looking at the lift from BJ's that will return it to stock ride height I # would like too get some 31's for it.. now front end is sitting a too low. # # # If i wanted to put on 33's a 4 inch lift should do it. If i get one of # those kits from BJ's with everything what else do i need? will i have to # worry about the driveshafts not being long enough? will there be alignment # problems? Any inputs? # # Sorry i need to ask noob questions. I would probably be better sticking # with stock kit, but i would like to see some 33's on it one day before it # rusts away # # thanks # Rob # 78 Cherokee Chief # 77 Gremlin # 04 Wrangler Rubicon # # _________________________________________________________________ # Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more^E.then map the best route! # http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=950607&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:12:56 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: thoughts on this xj (or why an FSJ seems too big) found a '99 limited... needs brakes, tires, cleaning... possibly a windshield, has some minor electrical issues: driver's seat heater inop, odometer not visibible in daytime with lights on, temp gauge reading compass direction and 0C. this is an Everett, WA vehicle, absolutely not a spot of rust, minimal mold on the exterior, none inside... factory sunroof, leather... cd/cassette, selectrac... rear cargo cover... orig owner... seems to run ok... tires are les schwab and totally junk, front tire is broken, almost feels square. :) only problem, other then the minor mechanicals is the color red... or sienna... ;) http://wagoneers.com/XJ/rigs/XJ-1999/ALL.html what's it worth??? going to look at a 2000 tomorrow night, it's only a sport, but looks to be much cleaner: http://wagoneers.com/tmp/xj/ALL.html also might look at a 2001 limited, but the guy is asking almost $10k for it... it's dark blue, tan leather interior... (the red one has a sunroof... I might make a low offer on it, despite the color... love the interior on it...) I've been walking from Jeep to Jeep in my driveway... first I sit in the WJ, then the Grand Wagoneer... the feel of the Grand Wagoneer is something I just can't get into... view is great... like you're sitting outside, but the Grand Wagoneer feels massive... the WJ is nice, but I don't care for the visibility, hard to feel the Jeep... the XJ just feels right to me, nimble, compact, maneuverable... the older XJs don't have the quality in the dash of the newer ones... the Grand Wag interior is so out of date, so ugly, disgusting even... I'm not sure why I like them so much some times. :) going to test drive a few more XJs... will put the '89 Grand Wag back on the road and drive it to compare... really thinking that I'm going to go back to an XJ... road feel notwithstanding... unlikely we'd take it on a long trip, and of course it's economy won't be comparable to the Benz, but I don't think I care... :) as cheap as XJs are I may pick up an old one and do a Diesel Benz conversion after I finish grad school... :) also going to look at another 2000 xj that hit a deer... can you say ARB bull bar? looks like the front header was replaced on it, but not the bumper... around $900 for a winch mount bumper for the xj... guy is asking too much for it right now though, $4500... has other issues... we'll see... again, no rust on any of the jeeps I'm looking at... I love the pacific northwest despite the liberals, rain, volcanoes, earthquakes, canada geese, moles and traffic... not necessarily in that order either. ;) so much to love about the PNW... 24hr espresso stands, green all year long, earthquakes, volcanoes, canada geese, rain... :) and NO RUST... should have been doing homework... oh well... only three more classes... who is going to ask what my gpa was in grad school anyway? :) looking at jeeps is way more fun than homework... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:23:41 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: market for rust free grand wags? so it's worth the effort to restore the '89 to it's full original glory... :) john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, michel balea wrote: # # I was offered an 87 grand wag, w 76,000miles..... for $8K..... very nice... # no rust, even if it came from the east cost (ebay sale).... I helped the # owner when he moved to the west coast..... no emissions..... # # The owner fixed the emissions.... (new headers.... and the AIR pump... # cat.... and the rest) $$$$ # # It was too nice for my wagoneer use..... but 2 weeks ago.... the owner was # leaving a few days later... and the price was $5k..... almost bought it.... # even w the square headlights, and white w burgundy interior. Luckily for the # owner he found a buyer for $8k. Wagoneer is being shipped to the # Netherlands.... # # All this to say, that there is a market for someone willing to pay the # price.... ( duh.....!) and the gas is going under $3 a gallon ($2.72 in # Sacramento yesterday.... It has been over $3.3# for most of the last few # months..... # # In fact my kids who borrowed the 85 w the leaky exhaust manifold, loved it # when they went partying w their friends accross town.... packed six # people.... and no worry of having body repair.... when you park in the not so # good parts of town.... of course.... they forgot about the toll for the bay # bridge... and did not realize that i have a toll pass..... of course they # also forgot about street cleaning.... at 3 am.... and got a ticket.... # # Michel # 74 wag # # From: john # # considering the success of wagonmasters and the # apparent success of wagoneer world, what kind of market # is really out there for fully restored Grand Wagoneers? # # If I took this '89 and had it detailed, interior upgraded/replaced # carpet, rebuilt the engine, etc.... what kind of price could # I realistically expect to market it for??? # # It's not cheap to do a full restoration. Even with friend's help # and my own wrenching one often gets buried in the project and # can't sell it for the total... but if the price is way up # there, in the high 20's, low 30's, it's almost affordable... # # if I had the engine professionally rebuilt to stock and installed # I'm looking at close to 3K, paint is good, just needs detailing, # the interior will need the most work, probably a couple of grand... # means I'll be into this thing about $6k... what's a nice clean # rust free wagoneer getting these days? maybe 12K? 7? # # john # # ----- # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # _________________________________________________________________ # Booking a flight? Know when to buy with airfare predictions on MSN Travel. # http://travel.msn.com/Articles/aboutfarecast.aspx&ocid=T001MSN25A07001 # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2905 **************************