From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Aug 20 11:14:49 2007 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, August 20 2007 Volume 01 : Number 2906 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: fsj: Re: xj: Re: xj or sj RE: fsj: Re: xj: Re: xj or sj RE: fsj: market for rust free grand wags? RE: fsj: Re: xj: Re: xj or sj RE: fsj: market for rust free grand wags? RE: fsj: Re: xj: Re: xj or sj Re: fsj: RE: Shorty Headers and Cherokee Plans Re: fsj: SHorty Headers Re: fsj: SHorty Headers RE: fsj: market for rust free grand wags? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:18:54 +0000 From: "michel balea" Subject: RE: fsj: Re: xj: Re: xj or sj How much vibrations do you expect to endure w the SJ diesel...... just a thought..... As usual, you need to define what use will the vehicle be assigned to..... In my case i can load all the camping gears... the spare parts and tools.... (may be w a newer vehicle i would not have to worry about what will break... but at least i know that i can get out ) the rear hitch w the off road moto..... For a commuter... the xj is a good bet.... there are plenty of website dedicated to fixing and modifying them.... forgot about the break point... which years to avoid.... but we talked about that some time ago.... anything before 93 to avoid..... I know that we have some members that are very familiar w Renix.... but for the daily operations... OBD is nice..... and after 2000 or is it 01. Michel 74 wag From: john considering the price of Diesel even an SJ with a 6.2L Diesel getting 18-20mpg in town will cost more than an XJ getting 16-18 in town... test drove a '99 limited a little bit ago... factory sun roof, leather interior... terrible tires, bad brakes, but one owner... also the other really, really bad thing about it... red. :( but it's not flame red or maroon, it's called sienna... toned down red... kind of... http://wagoneers.com/XJ/rigs/XJ-1999 needs to be cleaned up a bit... got home, had, or tried to have the wife sit in the '89 Grand Wagoneer... she was pretty grossed out... thing is the '89 is probably in better shape than my '91... and she's ridden in it... overall feel is nicer in the xj, even with the bad tires/brakes... will probably sell the Benz if the xj works out... still waiting for my GW... the '89 GW will probably be fully restored and sold to pay for a wedding... the '91 with the 6.2L might be cool, and if it is I can always sell the '99 XJ limited... not sure what I'll do if my '83 j10 is ever finished... loved that truck... too bad it was dismantled so quickly... really irritating... just want it back together so I can get it home... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 19 Aug 2007, Don Hansen wrote: # Economy's a consideration and you're considering an SJ???? # Can you say "2150"?...............................! # # -Don # # ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" # To: "full size jeep list" ; "xj-list" # Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 11:44 PM # Subject: xj: xj or sj # # # > that is the question... SJ or XJ? # > # > A modified SJ may be preferred to an XJ... :) # > benefits of SJ: # > - superb visibility *** # > - great towing rigs *** # > - body on frame # > - nice ride (usually) # > - plenty of room # > - classic # > - easy to modify # > - usually good seats # > - easy to lift # > # > benefits of XJ: # > - NIMBLE *** - easy to park *** - great on trails *** - excellent handling # > *** - modular parts, easy to replace # > - good visibility # > - easy to lift # > - uniframe # > - adequate room # > # > negatives of SJ: # > - tailgate (not always an issue) # > - poor economy in stock setup # > - poor quality of interior # > - hard to find solid, excellent versions # > - hard to find someone to work on them # > - lots of potential rust issues # > - heavy # > # > negatives of XJ: # > - a bit dated - cheapness to some of them # > - noisy # > - not economical, but better than an SJ # > - seats break easily, some are uncomfortable # > - quality can be an issue # > # > # > I guess the question comes down to what do I really want... and # > can I live with the perpetual maintenance requirements of the SJ? # > # > Of course if economy wasn't a consideration then a WJ would be # > preferred... almost... visibility and nimbleness of the XJ is # > better... and of course, panascopic vision is the best of all... # > # > let's hope the Diesel conversion setup works out... or I'll # > be selling both Grand Wagoneers and shopping for a nice XJ limited. or # > maybe another WJ... we'll see... # > # > keep the popcorn buttered y'all. # > # > # > john # > ----- # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # _________________________________________________________________ Learn.Laugh.Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:28:20 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Re: xj: Re: xj or sj On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, michel balea wrote: # How much vibrations do you expect to endure w the SJ diesel...... just a # thought..... not sure yet... the guy doing the conversion probably hasn't given that a lot of thought... supposed to have been done in May... quite irritating... why is it that people sign up to do things and then don't? got a couple of guys we hired to do a rockery, same kind of nonsense... you want to trust people, but they just don't follow through with promises... what was the question again? # As usual, you need to define what use will the vehicle be assigned to..... In # my case i can load all the camping gears... the spare parts and tools.... # (may be w a newer vehicle i would not have to worry about what will break... # but at least i know that i can get out ) the rear hitch w the off road # moto..... # # For a commuter... the xj is a good bet.... there are plenty of website # dedicated to fixing and modifying them.... forgot about the break point... # which years to avoid.... but we talked about that some time ago.... anything # before 93 to avoid..... I know that we have some members that are very # familiar w Renix.... but for the daily operations... OBD is nice..... and # after 2000 or is it 01. never had any problems with the Renix systems... not sure why that myth exists. have had 12 XJs, all but three were Renix... many of them went over 200k easily. obd was incorporated with the HO engines in late '90. best year is supposedly '96. head issues '96-'00. early ho motors had piston slap issues, '90-'93 or so. overall, the 4.0L is solid, reliable, but may eat rear main seals and mark it's territory... :) # # Michel # 74 wag # # # From: john # # considering the price of Diesel even an SJ with a 6.2L Diesel # getting 18-20mpg in town will cost more than an XJ getting 16-18 in town... # # test drove a '99 limited a little bit ago... factory sun roof, # leather interior... terrible tires, bad brakes, but one owner... # also the other really, really bad thing about it... # red. :( # but it's not flame red or maroon, it's called sienna... toned # down red... kind of... # http://wagoneers.com/XJ/rigs/XJ-1999 # # needs to be cleaned up a bit... got home, had, or tried to have # the wife sit in the '89 Grand Wagoneer... she was pretty grossed # out... thing is the '89 is probably in better shape than my '91... # and she's ridden in it... # # overall feel is nicer in the xj, even with the bad tires/brakes... # # will probably sell the Benz if the xj works out... still waiting # for my GW... the '89 GW will probably be fully restored and # sold to pay for a wedding... the '91 with the 6.2L might be cool, # and if it is I can always sell the '99 XJ limited... not sure # what I'll do if my '83 j10 is ever finished... loved that truck... # too bad it was dismantled so quickly... really irritating... just # want it back together so I can get it home... # # john # # ----- # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # On Sun, 19 Aug 2007, Don Hansen wrote: # # # Economy's a consideration and you're considering an SJ???? # # Can you say "2150"?...............................! # # # # -Don # # # # ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" # # To: "full size jeep list" ; "xj-list" # # Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 11:44 PM # # Subject: xj: xj or sj # # # # # # > that is the question... SJ or XJ? # # > # # > A modified SJ may be preferred to an XJ... :) # # > benefits of SJ: # # > - superb visibility *** # # > - great towing rigs *** # # > - body on frame # # > - nice ride (usually) # # > - plenty of room # # > - classic # # > - easy to modify # # > - usually good seats # # > - easy to lift # # > # # > benefits of XJ: # # > - NIMBLE *** - easy to park *** - great on trails *** - excellent # handling # # > *** - modular parts, easy to replace # # > - good visibility # # > - easy to lift # # > - uniframe # # > - adequate room # # > # # > negatives of SJ: # # > - tailgate (not always an issue) # # > - poor economy in stock setup # # > - poor quality of interior # # > - hard to find solid, excellent versions # # > - hard to find someone to work on them # # > - lots of potential rust issues # # > - heavy # # > # # > negatives of XJ: # # > - a bit dated - cheapness to some of them # # > - noisy # # > - not economical, but better than an SJ # # > - seats break easily, some are uncomfortable # # > - quality can be an issue # # > # # > # # > I guess the question comes down to what do I really want... and # # > can I live with the perpetual maintenance requirements of the SJ? # # > # # > Of course if economy wasn't a consideration then a WJ would be # # > preferred... almost... visibility and nimbleness of the XJ is # # > better... and of course, panascopic vision is the best of all... # # > # # > let's hope the Diesel conversion setup works out... or I'll # # > be selling both Grand Wagoneers and shopping for a nice XJ limited. or # # > maybe another WJ... we'll see... # # > # # > keep the popcorn buttered y'all. # # > # # > # # > john # # > ----- # # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # # # _________________________________________________________________ # Learn.Laugh.Share. Reallivemoms is right place! # http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us # # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:25:24 +0000 From: "michel balea" Subject: RE: fsj: market for rust free grand wags? W 126Kmiles.... if the engine sounds good.... seems like a good plan..... We all know that there is not a rebuilt as good as the OEM engine.... (flame suit on) Michel 74 wag (334Kmiles on OEM engine, and still purring, and not only in the driveway) From: john so it's worth the effort to restore the '89 to it's full original glory... :) _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more^E.then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=950607&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:30:57 +0000 From: "michel balea" Subject: RE: fsj: Re: xj: Re: xj or sj My daughter's renix is still running at 185Kmiles.... the 2.5l is not even burning oil.... no need to add oil between the 4kmiles oil changes.... and there is still oil above the min on the dipstick. thanx for the xj engine options..... i forgot about the head issues and the piston slaps.... so 93 to 95 is a safe range..... Michel 4wag From: john never had any problems with the Renix systems... not sure why that myth exists. have had 12 XJs, all but three were Renix... many of them went over 200k easily. obd was incorporated with the HO engines in late '90. best year is supposedly '96. head issues '96-'00. early ho motors had piston slap issues, '90-'93 or so. overall, the 4.0L is solid, reliable, but may eat rear main seals and mark it's territory... :) _________________________________________________________________ See what you^Rre getting into^Ebefore you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:39:32 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: market for rust free grand wags? probably true... ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, michel balea wrote: # # W 126Kmiles.... if the engine sounds good.... seems like a good plan..... # # We all know that there is not a rebuilt as good as the OEM engine.... (flame # suit on) # # Michel # 74 wag (334Kmiles on OEM engine, and still purring, and not only in the # driveway) # # # From: john # so it's worth the effort to restore the '89 to it's full original # glory... :) # # _________________________________________________________________ # Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more^E.then map the best route! # http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater& cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=950607& encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 # # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:40:27 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Re: xj: Re: xj or sj not sure... any engine with mileage of any year should be fine... problems if any usually happen early on... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, michel balea wrote: # # My daughter's renix is still running at 185Kmiles.... the 2.5l is not even # burning oil.... no need to add oil between the 4kmiles oil changes.... and # there is still oil above the min on the dipstick. # # thanx for the xj engine options..... i forgot about the head issues and the # piston slaps.... so 93 to 95 is a safe range..... # # Michel # 4wag # # # From: john # never had any problems with the Renix systems... not sure why that myth # exists. # have had 12 XJs, all but three were Renix... many of them went over 200k # easily. # # obd was incorporated with the HO engines in late '90. best year is # supposedly # '96. head issues '96-'00. early ho motors had piston slap issues, '90-'93 # or so. # overall, the 4.0L is solid, reliable, but may eat rear main seals and mark # it's # territory... :) # # _________________________________________________________________ # See what you^Rre getting into^Ebefore you go there # http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:57:12 +0000 From: "michel balea" Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Shorty Headers and Cherokee Plans dpa...... is what is listed for 4" lift..... and of course brake lines.... Michel 74 wag From: john Reply-To: john To: Zee Man CC: fsj-digest-at-digest.net Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Shorty Headers and Cherokee Plans Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 20:08:20 -0700 (PDT) 4" shouldn't require driveline mods... just be sure to get the right shims in the rear spring pack. :) john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 19 Aug 2007, Zee Man wrote: # The header install went surprisingly well, two weeks earlier i had 2 1/4 # duals put on and the exhaust guy left that annoying heat flapper thingy on # the passanger side. because of that i had to spend about 3 hours total just # lining up the manifold/ gasket/ heat flapper/ flange on passanger side. # drivers side was cake,, although its double gasketted because of the donut # the exhaust guy used. # Yes i didnt need to remove the heater core. I will say those headers are # easier to install then the stock manifolds.It is also much easier to install # the headers on the jeep then my 77 Gremlin 401, The passangerside can not be # put on withought lifting the engine partially out. # I used the paper gasket for now until i return from deploment and get some # nice locking bolts and copper gaskets... My jeep is whisper quiet now(this # week), surprising for headers..( # I will still need to retorque header bolts... my n ext plan is just getting a # slow leak in front tire fixed and getting my u-joints lubed. I will start # looking at the lift from BJ's that will return it to stock ride height I # would like too get some 31's for it.. now front end is sitting a too low. # # # If i wanted to put on 33's a 4 inch lift should do it. If i get one of # those kits from BJ's with everything what else do i need? will i have to # worry about the driveshafts not being long enough? will there be alignment # problems? Any inputs? # # Sorry i need to ask noob questions. I would probably be better sticking # with stock kit, but i would like to see some 33's on it one day before it # rusts away # # thanks # Rob # 78 Cherokee Chief # 77 Gremlin # 04 Wrangler Rubicon # # _________________________________________________________________ # Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more^E.then map the best route! # http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater&cp=42.358996~-71.056691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=950607&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 # _________________________________________________________________ Messenger Cafi ^W open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily. Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_AugHMtagline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:05:32 +0000 From: "michel balea" Subject: Re: fsj: SHorty Headers where do you get those copper gaskets.... any brand... If i am inclinded i will remove that driver's header on the 85 project.... tick tick tick..... as soon as i can pull the last 2 remaining stuck bolts..... thinking of using a combo of liquid nitrogen to shrink the bolt.... i already drilled 2 holes on the fender apron to peek an impact wrench.... but no success yet.... trying to avoid breaking those bolts Michel 74 wag 85 Gwag project or test rig From: Dan The solution was to get the copper gaskets. Something like $35 for the pair, but worth every penny. _________________________________________________________________ Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:13:22 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: SHorty Headers try soaking with a variety of penetrants... pbblaster, brake fluid, amsoil mp, liquid wrench... then heat up with a propane torch... (be careful though, you have a potential for a nice bonfire doing this after putting all that flammable stuff on it, combined with the existing oil and gunk... maybe the torch isn't a good idea if you like your truck... :) ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 20 Aug 2007, michel balea wrote: # where do you get those copper gaskets.... any brand... # # If i am inclinded i will remove that driver's header on the 85 project.... # tick tick tick..... as soon as i can pull the last 2 remaining stuck # bolts..... thinking of using a combo of liquid nitrogen to shrink the # bolt.... # # i already drilled 2 holes on the fender apron to peek an impact wrench.... # but no success yet.... trying to avoid breaking those bolts # # Michel # 74 wag # 85 Gwag project or test rig # # From: Dan # The solution was to get the copper gaskets. Something like $35 # for the pair, but worth every penny. # # _________________________________________________________________ # Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! # http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:04:35 +0000 From: "michel balea" Subject: RE: fsj: market for rust free grand wags? I was offered an 87 grand wag, w 76,000miles..... for $8K..... very nice... no rust, even if it came from the east cost (ebay sale).... I helped the owner when he moved to the west coast..... no emissions..... The owner fixed the emissions.... (new headers.... and the AIR pump... cat.... and the rest) $$$$ It was too nice for my wagoneer use..... but 2 weeks ago.... the owner was leaving a few days later... and the price was $5k..... almost bought it.... even w the square headlights, and white w burgundy interior. Luckily for the owner he found a buyer for $8k. Wagoneer is being shipped to the Netherlands.... All this to say, that there is a market for someone willing to pay the price.... ( duh.....!) and the gas is going under $3 a gallon ($2.72 in Sacramento yesterday.... It has been over $3.3# for most of the last few months..... In fact my kids who borrowed the 85 w the leaky exhaust manifold, loved it when they went partying w their friends accross town.... packed six people.... and no worry of having body repair.... when you park in the not so good parts of town.... of course.... they forgot about the toll for the bay bridge... and did not realize that i have a toll pass..... of course they also forgot about street cleaning.... at 3 am.... and got a ticket.... Michel 74 wag From: john considering the success of wagonmasters and the apparent success of wagoneer world, what kind of market is really out there for fully restored Grand Wagoneers? If I took this '89 and had it detailed, interior upgraded/replaced carpet, rebuilt the engine, etc.... what kind of price could I realistically expect to market it for??? It's not cheap to do a full restoration. Even with friend's help and my own wrenching one often gets buried in the project and can't sell it for the total... but if the price is way up there, in the high 20's, low 30's, it's almost affordable... if I had the engine professionally rebuilt to stock and installed I'm looking at close to 3K, paint is good, just needs detailing, the interior will need the most work, probably a couple of grand... means I'll be into this thing about $6k... what's a nice clean rust free wagoneer getting these days? maybe 12K? 7? john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Booking a flight? Know when to buy with airfare predictions on MSN Travel. http://travel.msn.com/Articles/aboutfarecast.aspx&ocid=T001MSN25A07001 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2906 **************************