From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Oct 23 23:09:37 2007 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, October 24 2007 Volume 01 : Number 2941 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: what's the value of my '89 GW??? popcorn update... fsj: the '89 GW value RE: fsj: the '89 GW value RE: fsj: the '89 GW value RE: fsj: the '89 GW value fsj: speedo gears fsj: RE: speedo gears Re: fsj: speedo gears fsj: side by side... (popcorn ready?) fsj: Re:side by side... (popcorn ready?) fsj: side by side... (popcorn ready?) FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:39:05 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: what's the value of my '89 GW??? popcorn update... still waiting for the title on the '89 GW, and to complete TMGT 625... ;) then need to finish the exhaust repairs and replace the carpeting... but trying to figure out what it's worth... body is perfect... not a spot of rust anywhere... paint cleaned up nicely... sunroof should be lubricated, but works. a/c blows cold, trans works, etc. compression test was good... think it's around 147K on the clock. http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/89-GW-Old-Blue-II/ my son has taking a liking to this... and I'm tempted to go with a quick sale so I can get the '99 XJ... it was in a slight accident that resulted in a scratch on the lower body panel, so the price has dropped way down. :) http://wagoneers.com/XJ/rigs/XJ-1999/ALL.html my '91 GW is still stuck in the black hole... no messages or emails have escaped either... I'm not convinced that the 6.2L project will be road worthy in a month anyway, so if I get the '99 XJ I'll have an affordable, comfortable rig to drive to Tucson... driving the 300D is not a comforting thought... the seats are bothering my back in the daily commute... great car... still undecided if I'm going to keep it once I get the GW or XJ working... Diesel prices are at $3.56, gas at $3.05. That makes an XJ more economical to drive than a Diesel FSJ... of course the Diesel FSJ will be running on old veggie oil... Dang, trying to get down to one vehicle for me and instead I end up with four... :) Why does everything take so long and cost so much? john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:41:27 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: the '89 GW value simple question, sans the update, what's this '89 worth? NO RUST... runs great... few cosmetic things to do... carpet... then exhaust... done... http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/89-GW-Old-Blue-II/ thanx, john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 21:02:32 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: the '89 GW value Excellent $2,785 Good $2,470 Fair $2,070 Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will like them only Entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) > Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:41:27 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: fsj-at-digest.net > CC: FSJparts-at-yahoogroups.com; FSJ-XJList-at-yahoogroups.com > Subject: fsj: the '89 GW value > > simple question, sans the update, what's this '89 worth? > > > NO RUST... runs great... few cosmetic things to do... > carpet... then exhaust... done... > > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/89-GW-Old-Blue-II/ > > thanx, > john > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailne ws ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 21:16:37 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: the '89 GW value not straight book value, I mean real value... this is RUST FREE. :) ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Jim Blair wrote: # Excellent $2,785 # # Good $2,470 # # Fair $2,070 # Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will like them only Entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) # # > Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:41:27 -0700 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: fsj-at-digest.net # > CC: FSJparts-at-yahoogroups.com; FSJ-XJList-at-yahoogroups.com # > Subject: fsj: the '89 GW value # > # > simple question, sans the update, what's this '89 worth? # > # > # > NO RUST... runs great... few cosmetic things to do... # > carpet... then exhaust... done... # > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/89-GW-Old-Blue-II/ # > # > thanx, # > john # > # > ----- # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # _________________________________________________________________ # Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! # http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailne ws ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 21:38:26 -0700 From: "Tesar Landon-r16884" Subject: RE: fsj: the '89 GW value You'd have to pay me to come get it so to me, it has negative value...rust/no rust. - - L - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:17 PM To: Jim Blair Cc: full size jeep list; fsjparts-at-yahoogroups.com; fsj-xjlist-at-yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: fsj: the '89 GW value not straight book value, I mean real value... this is RUST FREE. :) ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Jim Blair wrote: # Excellent $2,785 # # Good $2,470 # # Fair $2,070 # Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will like them only Entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) # # > Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:41:27 -0700 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: fsj-at-digest.net # > CC: FSJparts-at-yahoogroups.com; FSJ-XJList-at-yahoogroups.com # > Subject: fsj: the '89 GW value # > # > simple question, sans the update, what's this '89 worth? # > # > # > NO RUST... runs great... few cosmetic things to do... # > carpet... then exhaust... done... # > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/89-GW-Old-Blue-II/ # > # > thanx, # > john # > # > ----- # > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # _________________________________________________________________ # Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! # http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotm ailne ws ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:43:58 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: speedo gears I had a speedo gear with 31 teeth in the GWag and then I put on some Maxxis 33's. The speedo seemed to read too slow of course. By the tire chart these tires are really only 32.2" tall and I know my drive ratio is 3.31 (sadly). By MY logic, larger tires would translate to the speedo indicating a slower speed than is true. Therefore I would need a gear with MORE teeth to make the speedo indicate faster. So I was thinking I should look for a 33 tooth gear, but could only find a 34 so I got that... but the speedo is definitely still not right, still reading too slow, even worse than before I think. I recently found a chart in an offroad mag which indicates a LESSER number of teeth the larger you go in tire size..... which seems backward to me. It shows for example. 3.55 ratio -30 teeth for 35's, 31 teeth for 33's, 31 teeth for 32's and 32 teeth for 31" tires. 3.07 ratio -26 teeth for 35's, 26 teeth for 33's, 27 teeth for 32's and 27 teeth for 31" tires. So considering I've got 3.31 ratio and tires at a little more than 32" tall... I should be looking for a gear with maybe 29 teeth. Is the chart wrong? Anyone think a number OTHER than 29 teeth would be more correct? Somebody correct me before I waste another $30 for speedo gears.... Thanks! I need this thing dialed in correctly so I can monitor oil changes more accurately as well as keep from a hassle by the sheriff. JeepNut - -- "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - ---------------------------------------------------------- #1 '87 Street Comanche #24/100 - Currently Offline #2 '92 Cherokee Laredo - Bone stock #3 '88 Grand Wagoneer -'81 AMC 360 -.030 over; Edelbrock Performer w/ 600cfm 4bbl; TFI ignition upgrade; F727 -mild kit; NP229; D44's F/R -3:31; 6" lift kit; stainless steel brake lines; ProComp 3000 shocks; Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15; OEM 14 Spoke Wagonwheels; IPF 65/55 lamps; Dozer front bumper; ...and more to come. #4 '04 Grand Cherokee Limited - Bone stock And they say ..."There's Only One"... Proof that Chrysler knows NOTHING about Jeeps. - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 21:54:10 -0700 From: "Tesar Landon-r16884" Subject: fsj: RE: speedo gears Maybe it's that the gear you buy and install is actually itself gear driven, more teeth will engage more times per # of input teeth, rotating the gear more slowly for a given input transmission speed, if the mesh doesn't skip any teeth... - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of JeepNut Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:44 PM To: Full Size Jeeps Subject: fsj: speedo gears I had a speedo gear with 31 teeth in the GWag and then I put on some Maxxis 33's. The speedo seemed to read too slow of course. By the tire chart these tires are really only 32.2" tall and I know my drive ratio is 3.31 (sadly). By MY logic, larger tires would translate to the speedo indicating a slower speed than is true. Therefore I would need a gear with MORE teeth to make the speedo indicate faster. So I was thinking I should look for a 33 tooth gear, but could only find a 34 so I got that... but the speedo is definitely still not right, still reading too slow, even worse than before I think. I recently found a chart in an offroad mag which indicates a LESSER number of teeth the larger you go in tire size..... which seems backward to me. It shows for example. 3.55 ratio -30 teeth for 35's, 31 teeth for 33's, 31 teeth for 32's and 32 teeth for 31" tires. 3.07 ratio -26 teeth for 35's, 26 teeth for 33's, 27 teeth for 32's and 27 teeth for 31" tires. So considering I've got 3.31 ratio and tires at a little more than 32" tall... I should be looking for a gear with maybe 29 teeth. Is the chart wrong? Anyone think a number OTHER than 29 teeth would be more correct? Somebody correct me before I waste another $30 for speedo gears.... Thanks! I need this thing dialed in correctly so I can monitor oil changes more accurately as well as keep from a hassle by the sheriff. JeepNut - -- "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - ---------------------------------------------------------- #1 '87 Street Comanche #24/100 - Currently Offline #2 '92 Cherokee Laredo - Bone stock #3 '88 Grand Wagoneer -'81 AMC 360 -.030 over; Edelbrock Performer w/ 600cfm 4bbl; TFI ignition upgrade; F727 -mild kit; NP229; D44's F/R -3:31; 6" lift kit; stainless steel brake lines; ProComp 3000 shocks; Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15; OEM 14 Spoke Wagonwheels; IPF 65/55 lamps; Dozer front bumper; ...and more to come. #4 '04 Grand Cherokee Limited - Bone stock And they say ..."There's Only One"... Proof that Chrysler knows NOTHING about Jeeps. - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:10:32 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: speedo gears wow, the prices of the gears have gone up... I have a few laying around somewhere... the parts guys at the jeep dealer helped me sort it out... I used a GPS to determine the speed error in percent and then they determined the tooth count based on that error... seems to me it was one tooth per 3% error... share that link... sounds like a good site regardless... getting the speedo right is important... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, JeepNut wrote: # I had a speedo gear with 31 teeth in the GWag and then I put on some # Maxxis 33's. # The speedo seemed to read too slow of course. # By the tire chart these tires are really only 32.2" tall and I know my # drive ratio is 3.31 (sadly). # By MY logic, larger tires would translate to the speedo indicating a # slower speed than is true. # Therefore I would need a gear with MORE teeth to make the speedo # indicate faster. So I was thinking I should look for a 33 tooth gear, # but could only find a 34 so I got that... but the speedo is definitely # still not right, still reading too slow, even worse than before I think. # # I recently found a chart in an offroad mag which indicates a LESSER # number of teeth the larger you go in tire size..... which seems backward # to me. # It shows for example. # 3.55 ratio -30 teeth for 35's, 31 teeth for 33's, 31 teeth for 32's and # 32 teeth for 31" tires. # 3.07 ratio -26 teeth for 35's, 26 teeth for 33's, 27 teeth for 32's and # 27 teeth for 31" tires. # So considering I've got 3.31 ratio and tires at a little more than 32" # tall... I should be looking for a gear with maybe 29 teeth. # Is the chart wrong? Anyone think a number OTHER than 29 teeth would be # more correct? # # Somebody correct me before I waste another $30 for speedo gears.... # Thanks! I need this thing dialed in correctly so I can monitor oil # changes more accurately as well as keep from a hassle by the sheriff. # JeepNut # # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:15:30 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: side by side... (popcorn ready?) been waiting on my '91 Grand Wagoneer since spring... 6.2L Diesel transplant... love the idea of the Diesel, dual tanks, etc... but working on the '89 GW and just seeing these things up close... I realize I've been spoiled by the wife's WJ and my previous XJs... so, for grins, (nothing on the sci fi channel worth watching tonight) I gathered up pictures of my '91 GW and the '99 XJ I've been considering... here's what they look like side-by-side... correct me if I'm wrong by I'm thinking the vehicle on the right would be a lot nicer as a daily driver... :) http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/compare.html I haven't written off Omega or Superdawg yet... but for fit and finish I'm thinking XJ... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:40:51 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re:side by side... (popcorn ready?) I think I'm going to get this '99 XJ... the dual tank Diesel setup in Omeaga has a lot of promise. Problem is we're thinking of heading down to Arizona in Decemember, about a 3,500 mile trip... Omega isn't done yet and less than a month to go... no way I'm heading out into the Rockies in the dead of winter with an unproven conversion... this project was supposed to have been done in May... I'm kind of torn between the emotional involvement with FSJs and the Diesel and having a reliable daily driver that is fairly economical... Omega never really won me over like Old Blue and Superdawg did... the '99 xj price dropped a bunch since I looked at it... got scratched on the side... needs brakes, tune-up, tires... otherwise it's fine and one weekend of cleanup will have it road ready. getting used to the color... I was hoping to consolidate projects, but the delays induced by an overeager underperformer friend has spread things out a bit... gives me more time to decide on omega or superdawg for my ultimate project... omega is nice with the factory sunroof... and my wife likes it more than superdawg... so I'm thinking omega will end up the winner in time... ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, john wrote: # been waiting on my '91 Grand Wagoneer since spring... 6.2L Diesel transplant... love # the idea of the Diesel, dual tanks, etc... but working on the '89 GW and just seeing # these things up close... I realize I've been spoiled by the wife's WJ and my previous XJs... # # so, for grins, (nothing on the sci fi channel worth watching tonight) I gathered # up pictures of my '91 GW and the '99 XJ I've been considering... # # here's what they look like side-by-side... correct me if I'm wrong by I'm thinking the # vehicle on the right would be a lot nicer as a daily driver... :) # # http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/compare.html # # I haven't written off Omega or Superdawg yet... but for fit and finish I'm thinking XJ... # # john # # ----- # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 23:09:09 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: side by side... (popcorn ready?) Kevin, all true... excellent comparison, couldn't have said it better myself... I've had 12 XJs and 24 SJs. http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html Main attraction to the XJ is it's nimbleness, and economy, but also it's fit and finish compared to the current state of my '91 GW. I agree, the 6.2L Diesel setup still has me... but looking at the two rigs side by side, and having had it delayed for months on top of that... puts me in a situation where I want a 4x4 for the winter and something reasonably economical... not going to get rid of Omega, but going to put it in the shop and redo the interior nicely... get wj leather seats, redo the dash and instrument cluster and so on... will make it a long term project... the wife's wj needs a transfer case chain and maybe a water pump... only gets 17 to 20 on the freeway... the xj should see 19 to 22. Have gotten 21 with 31" tires before... I like the feel of the XJ in town... and on the trail... also like the feel of the SJ... I guess that's why I've been bouncing back and forth for years... if the WJ had the SJ visibility and better economy, that would be my main choice... like the size of the xj and the cleanness of it... :) would rather drive it than my 124 back and forth to work... we'll see if that 50 cents difference in fuel costs makes that much difference... not getting rid of shadowfax either... not right away anyway... learned my lesson the last time. ;) ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Kevin wrote: # John, # # I've had both, I've daily driven both, I've wheeled both fairly hard. # I daily drive a jetta now, so take this all for what it's worth. # # I will tell you with no doubt that the SJ is superior to the XJ in all # regards - ALL regards, except one - fuel economy. Well, sort of - an SJ # with a six could rival an automatic XJ for mileage. BTDT, got the t-shirt, # drove to medford to meet you in said SJ with points and a carb. # # Off road, the SJ's suspension makes an XJ look like a grocery getter. Parts # are more rugged, and less cheeseball. On road, the SJ is more stately, # arguably better in a crash, and has far more utility. Yes, and XJ with the # coils on the front is nicer on a washboard road (do you even HAVE those in # WA?), and the XJ is much narrower, which comes in handy on tightly wooded # trails, but having both XJs and SJs in my yard, unless fuel economy is a # concern, or a really tight trail where timber or gnarly rocks are a concern, # I'll take an SJ, every single time. So, I have a bashed in 93 XJ with a 5" # lift on 33s for those tight trails, and the XJ that was never made, an 89 # 4.0 AX-15 XJ with 2.73 or 2.87 gears (cant remember, but they're NOT 3.07s, # they've been counted) that pulls down 26 mpg. Other than that, SJs rule the # fleet, rule the yard, and rule the poison oak hill climb testing grounds in # my front yard. # # You've solved really the one problem with an SJ - to get reasonable power out # of them (since the stock six was a little anemic), you need a v8. Well, you # have a diesel. More horsepower than a six (have a 6.2, know what the horsepower # is), way more torque, and have the fuel economy of an automatic XJ, if not # better. Don't forget total cost of ownership with a diesel, no spark plugs, # no running like cr-at-p when ethanol gets added to fuel, flexibility to run off # recycled engine oil or soybean or peanut oil from costco, etc, etc. The only # thing I can think of that comes close is Jim's wet dream of a stroked high # compression six running propane. # # I can't talk too much trash about XJs since I have two, and believe me, they're # great offroad, and handle great, but an SJ is just so much more vehicle, and # is so far superior. You've had both, and you know (otherwise you would have # sold wagoneers.com a long time ago). Give the 6.2 SJ a chance, provided # it actually gets built. That failing, drive the wife's WJ and use the money # you didn't spend on buying the XJ under the guise of fuel economy to pay # for driving her rig down there and not worry about chains over the passes in CA # or AZ, or NV, or whereever. # # If you really REALLY want an XJ, wait for one to pop up for sale needing # an engine, and get it. You can have the pacer, it's 2.5L diesel and AOD # with some of the gearing the sixes had and with 31s will get good enough # mileage to more than make up for the 45 cent differential between 87 octane # and diesel. # # Back to remembering why I haven't gotten the gas powered tow rig back online, # or that 89 XJ with low oil pressure for that matter. *whimper* # # On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 10:15:30PM -0700, john wrote: # > here's what they look like side-by-side... correct me if I'm wrong by I'm thinking the # > vehicle on the right would be a lot nicer as a daily driver... :) # > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/compare.html # > # > I haven't written off Omega or Superdawg yet... but for fit and finish I'm thinking XJ... # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2941 **************************