From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Dec 26 23:12:54 2007 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, December 27 2007 Volume 01 : Number 2975 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Turbo! RE: fsj: anyone know about these cars? RE: fsj: Turbo! Re: fsj: Re: FSJ Brake Hose Re: [Amc-list] fsj: Re: FWD: a '63 IFS 4x4 Wagoneer and the '67 J-100 panel fsj: omega color RE: [db] Re: fsj: Turbo! (fwd) Re: [db] Re: fsj: Turbo! FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 23:03:07 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Turbo! I'd be surprised if you could get 2-3 Psi boost out fo this, it looks like a heater fan... :) while this may be pretty lame, I'm wondering if this might not work to overcome turbo lag in an older Diesel... :) I wonder how much power it would really take to use an electric motor as a supercharger... now is a time for the engineers amongst us to show off their math skills, dazzle us with physics and otherwise enlighten us... serious... I know that this gadget is unlikely to be effective, but I really want to know what it would take for it to work, and how much power would be required... Use a 3.0 or 4.0L engine as a base... I would think gas vs. Diesel would matter too???? from earlier thoughts/posts: this is the formula to figure out how big of a carb you need and how much air flow you really need... CFM = (rpm x displacement)/3456 ( 4,000 rpm * 360 cubic inches ) / 3456 = 416.67 CFM at peak torque on an AMC 360 you only need: ( 1,700 rpm * 360 cubic inches ) / 3456 = 177 CFM So the 290 CFM carb that comes stock on the '80's vintage Wagoneers is ok... ref: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/kn-vs-amsoil-according-to-john.html john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 25 Dec 2007, Jim Blair wrote: # Or not.... (I have trouble not laughing at this) # # http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Electric-Supercharger-All-Makes-All-Models-HP- # Turbo_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33741QQihZ013QQitemZ230201439643 # # item 230201439643 # _________________________________________________________________ # Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! # http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 17:06:26 +0000 From: michel balea Subject: RE: fsj: anyone know about these cars? As a rule... stay away from BMW..... parts are $$$, and service even more.... the 3 series.... have this awkward 2 parts gas tank.... w a connector... that will leak w time.... and apparently you need extensive work.... so are the disk brakes... very thin.... so no turning.... just new rotors.... Euro cars are plagged w electrical issues when they aged... what you save in gas, you will not make in $$ SAVINGS. Climate control.... well they tend to be... problematic.... http://www.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/ as for mazda, they are good cars... but a very small percentage of the market... so few parts from the autoparts stores... some weird engineering feasts..... may be like 3 or 4 oxygen sensors.... shocks w variable rate that are pressurized w exhaust gases..... cheers Michel > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 21:52:32 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: fsj-at-digest.net; diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: anyone know about these cars? > > http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/car/516075742.html > http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/car/516070710.html > > someone wants to trade my '89 GW for either one of those cars... > I don't know much about cars any more... my last BMW was a '67 2000CS in Germany. > > let me know if there are issues with either car... not that I'm serious about > trading, but it might not be a bad way of getting my daughter into a more economical > car, or me getting back into a BMW. :) > > here's my ad: > http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/car/518852112.html > > > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > there's a solution for every problem; > problem is can we afford the solution? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console. http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 17:11:19 +0000 From: michel balea Subject: RE: fsj: Turbo! this if for your heater motor, no more cold feet, comes w a filter too.... nice.... :-) Michel > From: carnuck1-at-msn.com > To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: Turbo! > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 20:24:29 -0800 > > Or not.... (I have trouble not laughing at this) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Electric-Supercharger-All-Makes-All-Models-HP- > Turbo_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33741QQihZ013QQitemZ230201439643 > > item 230201439643 > _________________________________________________________________ > Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! > http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec _________________________________________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:58:32 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: FSJ Brake Hose thanx http://cgi.ebay.com/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200185711114 ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, Dan Black wrote: # john said: # {- http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200185711114&ssPageNa # {- me=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=010 # # http://danblack.org/ebay # --> http://cgi.ebay.com/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200185711114 # # ;) # # ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- # Trix are for kids. # -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:59:16 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: [Amc-list] fsj: Re: FWD: a '63 IFS 4x4 Wagoneer and the '67 J-100 panel any pictures of the brakets and where they mount? this was a special order military 2 dr panel wagoneer with a 232, don't see where brackets could be bolted in... once a pump is in place it'll be easy to adapt the hoses to the modern steering box. :) thanx, john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 26 Dec 2007, Matt Haas wrote: # The 199, 232, and 258 AMC sixes used Saginaw pumps at least as far back as # 1966 (may go back to 1964) and the brackets you would need were used up until # 1974. You likely need a higher pressure pump than AMC used on its six # cylinder cars due to added weight and much larger tires. The good news is # that all of the pumps are physically the same size on the outside so once you # get the brackets, you can bolt in any pump that you need. There are two # different reservoir styles. The early one is round with an oval shaped filler # neck (was used until about 71 give or take a year). The newer style is tear # drop shaped. You can use either one. # # Matt # # Jim Blair wrote: # > Yes there is! I had a '69 Rambler with 232 and PS! It just doesn't mount # > the same as later motors. # > # > Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # > # > # > > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 13:51:21 -0800 # > > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com # > > CC: fsj-at-digest.net; amc-list-at-amc-list.com # > > Subject: fsj: Re: FWD: a '63 IFS 4x4 Wagoneer and the '67 J-100 panel # > > # > > steering box was updated to work with newer axles, biggest problem # > > is no place on the 232 to mount the pS pump! # > > # > > ----- # > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > > there's a solution for every problem; # > > problem is can we afford the solution? # > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > > # > > # > > On Tue, 25 Dec 2007, Jim Blair wrote: # > > # > > # My friend John has some oldies, but goodies around these days. # > > # A friend of his allowed John to get some pics of Jeep's first foray # > > # into IFS on the '63 Wagoneer. # > > # (looks sort of like a precursor to Ford's TTB) # > > # # > > # The '67 has a 232 and he wants to put PS on it. I'm pretty sure I have # > > # the box already (spare from one of my FSJs) # > > # if he doesn't have one, so he needs the brackets and pump for a saginaw # > > # setup or ideas for maybe the 4.2L PS swap? # > > # # > > # John -at-wagoneers.com wrote: # > > # > # RE: the 63 IFS. Looks like torsion rod suspension, huh? # > > # > # Interesting... # > > # > # # > > # > # Subject: fsj: a '63 IFS 4x4 Wagoneer and the '67 J-100 panel # > > # > # # > > # > # http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/63_ifs_rice/ # > > # > # http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/63_ifs_rice/ALL.html # > > # > # # > > # > # http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/67_j100_panel/ # > > # > # http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/67_j100_panel/ALL.html # > > # > # # > > # > # Merry Christmas # > > # > # # > > # > # ----- # > > # > # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > > # > # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they # > > # > # mold # > > # > # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # > > # > # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > > # > # there's a solution for every problem; # > > # > # problem is can we afford the solution? # > > # > # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > > # # > > # # >> # _________________________________________________________________ # > > # Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! # > > # http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec # > # > _________________________________________________________________ # > Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. # > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007 # > -------------- next part -------------- # > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... # > URL: # > http://www.amc-list.com/pipermail/amc-list/attachments/20071225/baaba8f1/attachment.htm # > _______________________________________________ # > Amc-list mailing list # > Amc-list-at-amc-list.com # > http://www.amc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/amc-list # > # > # > # # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 14:49:19 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: omega color how would Omega look like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120201236745&rd=1#ebayphotohosting ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 21:34:48 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: RE: [db] Re: fsj: Turbo! (fwd) passing this along... (dave and I are in grad school together, hence the apa format comment, which thankfully I'm not even going to check because Lord willing I am done with APA format unless I decide to: 1) continue on with a doctorate, or 2) impose this requirement upon my students. At this point in time neither look to happen until at least mid-2008... ;) john - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there's a solution for every problem; problem is can we afford the solution? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Ashby According to a simple formula for the theoretical horsepower to compress air, to get 3 psid above ambient (given standard dry-air sea level conditions) for 177 cfm it would take about 2.165 HP. Reference Glover, T. J. (1998). Pocket Ref (2nd ed.) Littleton, CO: Sequoia Publishing, Inc. That should be APA format for you John :) Think about the size of a 2 HP electric motor. A typical 2 HP motor running on 115 VAC will draw 19-23 amps. Now consider that the calculation above is theoretical and does not consider losses such as the inefficiencies of a turbo compressor, or a scroll blower. A typical scroll type blower (depicted in a certain image) generates a few inches of water pressure; maybe 5-6 inH2O near blade stall; when flowing air it will generate substantially less pressure rise across the blower. 27.68 inH2O is approximately 1 psi. Dave A. - -----Original Message----- From: J.B. Hebert [mailto:diesel-at-wrxtra.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 7:34 PM To: john; Jim Blair Cc: xj-list; diesel-benz list; David Ashby; WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com; fsj list Subject: Re: [db] Re: fsj: Turbo! Remember that pressure decreases as volume increases. It would be easy to get some decent pressure through a very small orifice, but in the case of a supercharger you're trying to generate pressure going down a 3" plus orifice, depending on application. A typical turbo spins at around 100,000 RPM to generate the boost and volume necessary to see performance gains. An electric supercharger could work, but it would have to spin much faster than the eBay one to be effective. I cannot say what kind of power would be required, but I bet something like a Taurus cooling fan motor (which draws about 17 amps) would probably make a killer electric supercharger motor with proper gearing and impeller. That's how *I* would do it, anyway. J.B. At 02:03 AM 12/26/2007, john wrote: >I'd be surprised if you could get 2-3 Psi boost out fo this, >it looks like a heater fan... :) > >while this may be pretty lame, I'm wondering if this might not >work to overcome turbo lag in an older Diesel... :) > >I wonder how much power it would really take to use an electric >motor as a supercharger... > >now is a time for the engineers amongst us to show off their >math skills, dazzle us with physics and otherwise enlighten us... > >serious... I know that this gadget is unlikely to be effective, >but I really want to know what it would take for it to work, and >how much power would be required... > >Use a 3.0 or 4.0L engine as a base... I would think gas vs. Diesel >would matter too???? > >from earlier thoughts/posts: > >this is the formula to figure out how big of a carb you need and how >much air flow you really need... > > CFM = (rpm x displacement)/3456 > > ( 4,000 rpm * 360 cubic inches ) / 3456 = 416.67 CFM > >at peak torque on an AMC 360 you only need: > ( 1,700 rpm * 360 cubic inches ) / 3456 = 177 CFM > > So the 290 CFM carb that comes stock on the '80's vintage > Wagoneers is ok... > >ref: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/kn-vs-amsoil-according-to-john.html > >john > > ----- >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > there's a solution for every problem; > problem is can we afford the solution? >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >On Tue, 25 Dec 2007, Jim Blair wrote: > > # Or not.... (I have trouble not laughing at this) > # > # > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Electric-Supercharger-All-Makes-All-Models-HP - - > # Turbo_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33741QQihZ013QQitemZ230201439643 > # > # item 230201439643 > # _________________________________________________________________ > # Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! > # http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec > # > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.9/1197 - Release Date: >12/25/2007 8:04 PM - -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.9/1197 - Release Date: 12/25/2007 8:04 PM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 23:08:01 -0800 From: Kevin Subject: Re: [db] Re: fsj: Turbo! Someone makes an electric blower, and it's actually quite effective. As JB says, it's got to move some serious air to do anything. I think it pulled somewhere on the order of 250-300 amps. Pro: no parasitic drag from the supercharger belt Cons: the whine from the bank of alternators has got to be deafening, and the bank of batteries has got to weigh a ton. Can't remember where I read about it, but remember thinking that a powermaster alternator would still fall shy of keeping up with it and require some mildly creative wiring. On Wed, Dec 26, 2007 at 10:34:13PM -0500, J.B. Hebert wrote: > Remember that pressure decreases as volume increases. It would be > easy to get some decent pressure through a very small orifice, but in > the case of a supercharger you're trying to generate pressure going > down a 3" plus orifice, depending on application. A typical turbo > spins at around 100,000 RPM to generate the boost and volume > necessary to see performance gains. An electric supercharger could > work, but it would have to spin much faster than the eBay one to be > effective. I cannot say what kind of power would be required, but I > bet something like a Taurus cooling fan motor (which draws about 17 > amps) would probably make a killer electric supercharger motor with > proper gearing and impeller. That's how *I* would do it, anyway. ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #2975 **************************