From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Feb 12 19:39:39 2008 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, February 13 2008 Volume 01 : Number 3009 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? RE: fsj: best riding lift? 2" or 4" RE: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? RE: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? RE: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? RE: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:09:48 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? I've put a 6.2L Diesel in my '91 Grand Wagoneer... as expected seeing a bit of spring sag... already has a 3" body lift so it sits properly, don't need more elevation, just a bit more spring lift and clearance for the oil pan and tail pipe. :) (see pix linked below) I am wondering if I should maintain the factory track bars(panhard bars). I think they first showed up in '86 or so... I'm planning on going with the 2" lift with all new springs from bjsoffroad. They are supposed to ride nicely... initially most see 3" of lift, but with the added weight of the 6.2L Diesel and an auxillary fuel tank I'll be happy with a stock height. :) QUESTION: Do I need to keep the panhard bars? What are the advantages of having them? Improved ride? handling? Any downsides to removing them? After all the SJs didn't have them from 1962 through 1985 or so... :) I doubt that the 2" lift will affect them much, if at all... the GW currently has 3" of body lift. If I need to spend money on brackets to extend the track bars I may elminate them... all they will eventually do is start rattling when the bushings where out. It's not like I'll experience the wobble-o-death common to XJs when they go bad. http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/4_exhaust_8feb08/ALL.html http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/5_omega_9feb08/ALL.html yes, it does run, not very well right now though: (large file 71M) http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/5_omega_9feb08/Omega-6.2L-9Feb2008.MOV john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:16:00 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: best riding lift? 2" or 4" I've gone as much as 4" of lift without bump steer on SJs. bigger issue for me was getting vibrations out of the driveline from the angle... trans mount went soft, and I didn't have the right shims in the back axle. ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 12 Feb 2008, michel balea wrote: # # # # just looked at your exhaust picts, i can see your issues, you could remove the suspension stabilizer (the single arm atttached to the top of the axle... sorry forgot the name) I do not have on on the 74, and on the 85 i never put it back after doing the RMS. # # The only thing to watch out after the 2"(3") lift is to recheck to toe.... I had a slight bump steer.... and after talking to one of my FSJ friends, he said... recheck your toe.... i had a toe out of about 1/2".... back to toe-in and no apparent bump steer. Of course looking at my tie rod, i could use a drop pitman arm....If we want the geometry to be perfect. # # Michel # # > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:11:29 -0800 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com # > CC: carnuck-at-hotmail.com; brent-at-bjsoffroad.com; abcvoice-at-worldnet.att.net; fparker24-at-verizon.net; xj-at-digest.net; fsjparts-at-yahoogroups.com; fsj-at-digest.net # > Subject: RE: fsj: best riding lift? 2" or 4" # > # > ah yes... the last line... exactly what I was looking for, you made # > me work for it, but I have my answer.... :) # > # > # that 2" springs yields almost 3" but it is very very nice.... almost a # > caddillac ride # > # > that's the endorsement I was seeking... will take to brent to see if he # > confirms. # > # > john # > # > ----- # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > there's a solution for every problem; # > problem is can we afford the solution? # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # > # > On Mon, 11 Feb 2008, michel balea wrote: # > # > # # > # # > # I did the add a leaf in the front before Moab... in 07, because BJs 2" # > springs were back ordered, very very hard... so for your diesel could be # > good.' # > # # > # the add a leaf... sticks forward of the shackle... so after hitting a few # > boulders heads on... the main leaf snapped.... the local junk yard had a # > wagoneer.... # > # # > # then did my usual summer rides..... very very stiff, almost unbearable (i # > rebuilt that junkyard spring, waiting for BJs 2") i had to lower air pressure # > to 26, usually 30 was enough.... BJ's 2" was installed in November.... that 2" # > springs yields almost 3" but it is very very nice.... almost a caddillac ride # > # # > # Cheers # > # # > # Michel # > # 74wag # > # # > # # > # > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:38:55 -0800 # > # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > # > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com # > # > CC: brent-at-bjsoffroad.com; ABCvoice-at-worldnet.att.net; # > FParker24-at-verizon.net; xj-at-digest.net; fsjparts-at-yahoogroups.com; # > fsj-at-digest.net # > # > Subject: RE: fsj: best riding lift? 2" or 4" # > # > # > # > jim, # > # > # > # > remember, the PRIME OBJECTIVES: 1) clear the oil pan and exhaust on the # > axles # > # > 2) provide a stock ride or better # > # > 3) not have to modify panhard bars or brakes. # > # > 4) not spend a day in gravel and mud messing with used parts # > # > 5) not looking for elevation, already have 3" of body lift # > # > # > # > I've done the used spring thing before, it took all day of laying springs # > all over my driveway, # > # > grease and dirt everywhere... when I got all done I barely saw 2" of lift # > and # > # > then it wasn't as planned... # > # > # > # > it took WAY more time than just installing brand new springs. # > # > # > # > see, I've done it before... # > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Suspension/J10-poormans-lift/ALL.html # > # > # > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Suspension/poor-man-lift-calculations.html # > # > # > # > I did this 8 years ago... it's worth it to just buy the ones with # > # > the correct spring rate already figured out.. # > # > # > # > # > # > Now, if you want to come over and do it for me, be happy to pay you... # > :) # > # > # > # > Otherwise, I'm considering one of these as options: either the 2" or # > 4". # > # > # > # > I want a nice ride, to overcome the sag by the weight and age, running # > 235's, # > # > might go to 30x9.5s or even 31x10.5s. most likely will stay with the # > 235s, the # > # > Diesel seems fine with that size and they'll ride just fine... # > # > # > # > The 2" kit is preferred, no brake work, should get the arch back into # > things # > # > and work fine with the 3" of body lift... # > # > # > # > http://www.bjsoffroad.com/cartgenie/prodInfo.asp?pid=524&cid=14 # > # > BJ's 2-inch lift springs with u-bolts. This is perfect for someone who # > wants to put their Full-Size Jeep at the height the factory should put on # > them. Stock shocks and brakelines will work with this kit. # > # > # > # > or # > # > # > # > http://www.bjsoffroad.com/cartgenie/prodInfo.asp?pid=488&cid=14 # > # > BJ's Off-Road Custom 4-inch Suspension System. Our Suspension System is # > All-Spring with NO BLOCKS! Impress your friends, clear more obstacles, and # > make your rig look like it SHOULD have from the factory! You'll be amazed at # > how comfortable the ride is and how much better your off-road performance will # > be! # > # > Fits: 1976-1991 # > # > # Models: All # > # > # 4 New Leaf Springs (No Blocks) # > # > # New Grade 8 U-Bolts and Hardware # > # > # Braided Stainless Steel Extended Brakelines With Factory Fittings # > Included (unless otherwise noted) # > # > # Shocks Included (Rancho or Pro Comp -- Rancho Shocks Include Shock # > Boots) # > # > # Very Comfortable, Soft Ride # > # > # > # > ----- # > # > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # > # > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # > there's a solution for every problem; # > # > problem is can we afford the solution? # > # > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > # # > # _________________________________________________________________ # > # Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail.-get your # > "fix". # > # http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx # # _________________________________________________________________ # Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. # http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:27:24 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? The track bars (aka panhard bars) are a waste of metal and time unless you plan high speed cornering (especially towing). These rigs ran fine with just a front swaybar from day 1. I've driven 2 with the bar still in place (with worn shocks) and the side to side bounce and that clunk (on gravel roads) was REALLY annoying! If your lift only takes you to stock height, then it'll be okay to keep them (till the clunk drives you crazy...er) Going higher causes them to follow the arc which results in the side to side bumps. > Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:09:48 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: > Subject: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? > > I've put a 6.2L Diesel in my '91 Grand Wagoneer... as expected seeing > a bit of spring sag... already has a 3" body lift so it sits properly, > don't need more elevation, just a bit more spring lift and clearance for > the oil pan and tail pipe. :) (see pix linked below) > > I am wondering if I should maintain the factory track bars(panhard bars). > I think they first showed up in '86 or so... > > I'm planning on going with the 2" lift with all new springs from bjsoffroad. > They are supposed to ride nicely... initially most see 3" of lift, but with > the added weight of the 6.2L Diesel and an auxillary fuel tank I'll be happy > with a stock height. :) > > QUESTION: > Do I need to keep the panhard bars? > What are the advantages of having them? > Improved ride? handling? > Any downsides to removing them? After all the SJs didn't have > them from 1962 through 1985 or so... :) > > I doubt that the 2" lift will affect them much, if at all... > the GW currently has 3" of body lift. If I need to spend money > on brackets to extend the track bars I may elminate them... all they > will eventually do is start rattling when the bushings where out. It's > not like I'll experience the wobble-o-death common to XJs when they go bad. > > > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/4_exhaust_8feb08/ALL.html > > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/5_omega_9feb08/ALL.html > > yes, it does run, not very well right now though: (large file 71M) > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/5_omega_9feb08/Omega-6.2L-9Feb2008.MOV > > john > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:42:44 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? I love high speed cornerning... I love watching front wheel drive cars understeer off the road while I power through the corner in my Jeeps... :) ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 12 Feb 2008, Jim Blair wrote: # The track bars (aka panhard bars) are a waste of metal and time unless you plan high speed cornering (especially towing). These rigs ran fine with just a front swaybar from day 1. I've driven 2 with the bar still in place (with worn shocks) and the side to side bounce and that clunk (on gravel roads) was REALLY annoying! If your lift only takes you to stock height, then it'll be okay to keep them (till the clunk drives you crazy...er) Going higher causes them to follow the arc which results in the side to side bumps. # # > Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:09:48 -0800 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: # > Subject: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? # > # > I've put a 6.2L Diesel in my '91 Grand Wagoneer... as expected seeing # > a bit of spring sag... already has a 3" body lift so it sits properly, # > don't need more elevation, just a bit more spring lift and clearance for # > the oil pan and tail pipe. :) (see pix linked below) # > # > I am wondering if I should maintain the factory track bars(panhard bars). # > I think they first showed up in '86 or so... # > # > I'm planning on going with the 2" lift with all new springs from bjsoffroad. # > They are supposed to ride nicely... initially most see 3" of lift, but with # > the added weight of the 6.2L Diesel and an auxillary fuel tank I'll be happy # > with a stock height. :) # > # > QUESTION: # > Do I need to keep the panhard bars? # > What are the advantages of having them? # > Improved ride? handling? # > Any downsides to removing them? After all the SJs didn't have # > them from 1962 through 1985 or so... :) # > # > I doubt that the 2" lift will affect them much, if at all... # > the GW currently has 3" of body lift. If I need to spend money # > on brackets to extend the track bars I may elminate them... all they # > will eventually do is start rattling when the bushings where out. It's # > not like I'll experience the wobble-o-death common to XJs when they go bad. # > # > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/4_exhaust_8feb08/ALL.html # > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/5_omega_9feb08/ALL.html # > # > yes, it does run, not very well right now though: (large file 71M) # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/5_omega_9feb08/Omega-6.2L-9Feb2008.MOV # > # > john # > # > ----- # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # _________________________________________________________________ # Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. # http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:06:47 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? The panhard bar took all the sway from my suspension and made it feel like the tires were going to lift off the road (Turning right would lower the suspension and turning left would raise it) Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will like them only Entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful will easily break through them ANACHARSIS Scythian philosopher (fl. 600 BC) > Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:42:44 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: carnuck1-at-msn.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: RE: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? > > I love high speed cornerning... I love watching front wheel > drive cars understeer off the road while I power through the > corner in my Jeeps... :) > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Tue, 12 Feb 2008, Jim Blair wrote: > > # The track bars (aka panhard bars) are a waste of metal and time unless you > plan high speed cornering (especially towing). These rigs ran fine with just a > front swaybar from day 1. I've driven 2 with the bar still in place (with worn > shocks) and the side to side bounce and that clunk (on gravel roads) was > REALLY annoying! If your lift only takes you to stock height, then it'll be > okay to keep them (till the clunk drives you crazy...er) Going higher causes > them to follow the arc which results in the side to side bumps. > # > # > Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:09:48 -0800 > # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > # > To: > # > Subject: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? > # > > # > I've put a 6.2L Diesel in my '91 Grand Wagoneer... as expected seeing > # > a bit of spring sag... already has a 3" body lift so it sits properly, > # > don't need more elevation, just a bit more spring lift and clearance for > # > the oil pan and tail pipe. :) (see pix linked below) > # > > # > I am wondering if I should maintain the factory track bars(panhard > bars). > # > I think they first showed up in '86 or so... > # > > # > I'm planning on going with the 2" lift with all new springs from > bjsoffroad. > # > They are supposed to ride nicely... initially most see 3" of lift, but > with > # > the added weight of the 6.2L Diesel and an auxillary fuel tank I'll be > happy > # > with a stock height. :) > # > > # > QUESTION: > # > Do I need to keep the panhard bars? > # > What are the advantages of having them? > # > Improved ride? handling? > # > Any downsides to removing them? After all the SJs didn't have > # > them from 1962 through 1985 or so... :) > # > > # > I doubt that the 2" lift will affect them much, if at all... > # > the GW currently has 3" of body lift. If I need to spend money > # > on brackets to extend the track bars I may elminate them... all they > # > will eventually do is start rattling when the bushings where out. It's > # > not like I'll experience the wobble-o-death common to XJs when they go > bad. > # > > # > > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/4_exhaust_8feb08/ALL.html > # > > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/5_omega_9feb08/ALL.html > # > > # > yes, it does run, not very well right now though: (large file 71M) > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/5_omega_9feb08/Omega-6.2L-9Feb2008.MOV > # > > # > john > # > > # > ----- > # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > # _________________________________________________________________ > # Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star > power. > # http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 03:36:07 +0000 From: michel balea Subject: RE: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? Ditto, love to race the ricer.... after all this is bullitt city... the track bars or panhard rod is not needed.... this is how the 85 is finally rigged with only the stabilizer bars, not the track bars or panhard rod... the 74 does not have the stabilizer bars... so there is some excess body roll... but with good shocks it is acceptable... and lets make sure that we are talking about the same piece of hardware http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/b/b5/200px-Panhard_rod.jp g cheers Michel > Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:42:44 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: carnuck1-at-msn.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: RE: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? > > I love high speed cornerning... I love watching front wheel > drive cars understeer off the road while I power through the > corner in my Jeeps... :) > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Tue, 12 Feb 2008, Jim Blair wrote: > > # The track bars (aka panhard bars) are a waste of metal and time unless you > plan high speed cornering (especially towing). These rigs ran fine with just a > front swaybar from day 1. I've driven 2 with the bar still in place (with worn > shocks) and the side to side bounce and that clunk (on gravel roads) was > REALLY annoying! If your lift only takes you to stock height, then it'll be > okay to keep them (till the clunk drives you crazy...er) Going higher causes > them to follow the arc which results in the side to side bumps. > # > # > Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:09:48 -0800 > # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > # > To: > # > Subject: fsj: panhard bars on the '91 GW? needed? desired? > # > > # > I've put a 6.2L Diesel in my '91 Grand Wagoneer... as expected seeing > # > a bit of spring sag... already has a 3" body lift so it sits properly, > # > don't need more elevation, just a bit more spring lift and clearance for > # > the oil pan and tail pipe. :) (see pix linked below) > # > > # > I am wondering if I should maintain the factory track bars(panhard > bars). > # > I think they first showed up in '86 or so... > # > > # > I'm planning on going with the 2" lift with all new springs from > bjsoffroad. > # > They are supposed to ride nicely... initially most see 3" of lift, but > with > # > the added weight of the 6.2L Diesel and an auxillary fuel tank I'll be > happy > # > with a stock height. :) > # > > # > QUESTION: > # > Do I need to keep the panhard bars? > # > What are the advantages of having them? > # > Improved ride? handling? > # > Any downsides to removing them? After all the SJs didn't have > # > them from 1962 through 1985 or so... :) > # > > # > I doubt that the 2" lift will affect them much, if at all... > # > the GW currently has 3" of body lift. If I need to spend money > # > on brackets to extend the track bars I may elminate them... all they > # > will eventually do is start rattling when the bushings where out. It's > # > not like I'll experience the wobble-o-death common to XJs when they go > bad. > # > > # > > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/4_exhaust_8feb08/ALL.html > # > > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/5_omega_9feb08/ALL.html > # > > # > yes, it does run, not very well right now though: (large file 71M) > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/5_omega_9feb08/Omega-6.2L-9Feb2008.MOV > # > > # > john > # > > # > ----- > # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > # _________________________________________________________________ > # Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star > power. > # http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3009 **************************