From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Thu Feb 28 09:24:43 2008 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, February 28 2008 Volume 01 : Number 3020 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: 787 in SAE news (fwd) fsj: fwd: EOS and ZDDP fsj: Early wag spotted in N Seattle junkyard fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? RE: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? RE: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? Re: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? Re: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? Re: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? RE: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? fsj: the failed emissions test report - 89 GW (and Diesel info) RE: fsj: the failed emissions test report - 89 GW (and Diesel info) FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:51:22 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: 787 in SAE news (fwd) "If there's anything that we have learned over these past three months, it's that we underestimated how long it would take to complete someone else's work." - Pat Shanahan - 16 Jan 2008 http://www.sae.org/aeromag/technewsletter/080219Aero/09.htm ...why does this seem so familar to me? :) john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:46:05 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: fsj: fwd: EOS and ZDDP Been a lot of talk about zinc, or rather the lack of it in oils recently and premature engine damage happening (especially on rebuilt engines) Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 I'm working with Advance Auto Parts to stock the GM / AC Delco EOS - engine oil supplement - an anti-wear package with ZDDP. *Part 10-106* 12371532 *note - Gm has reinstated this EOS and the new number is #88862586 read up on : CI-4/CI-4 Plus oil With the NEW EOS packaging, you'll see it is now listed as an 'Engine Assembly Lubricant' - not as previously an 'Engine Oil Additive': [quote from somewhere] "is this a GM disclaimer to keep the corporate lawyers and EPA Nazis happy or should I really not be using this stuff in my Fleetwood or El Dorado (or my 68 DeVille Conv for that matter)???" answer: The word I got from an engine developer / builder with ~20 years of experience (and a rat rod Seville at his shop) was exactly what you proposed.{relisting EOS as an 'Assembly Lubricant' not an Engine Oil Supplement ] is 'Legalese' speak, and no more. Because of all the ZDDP in EOS, it tends to destroy catalytic converters, hence the warning [of not using it as an Additive, the EPA cracked down]. I asked him about using EOS; he suggested putting in a pint with every 5 quarts or so, every oil change. In my mind, it is cheap insurance against the flat tappet monster. I have read at least one published article, maybe more (no references I recall this morning) that suggest the same thing. Not sure I would put it in something with a cat, but there you go! Also, do some digging here http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...t=0&Board=UBB5 [end quote] [quote from somewhere] EOS is engine oil supplement. modern SM grade conventional passenger car oils are a disaster waiting to happen in flat tappet engines, and 10w-40 is one of the worst. The ZDDP levels in regular passenger car motor oils have been drastically reduced in recent years, (from around 1200 ppm to 800 ppm today). This has resulted in rash of cam/lifter failures in flat tappet motors. Furthermore, they are made from crappy group I base oils. On the other hand, a few of the heavy-duty /15w-40 /diesel motor oils such as: Shell Rotella, Mobil Delvac, etc. still have decent levels of ZDDP, plus they are made from superior group II base oils and have excellent detergents. [end quote] See link: http://www.motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html Some, not all Diesel Engine Oils still contain a ZDDP package. When ZDDP was removed due to EPA pressure, the Truckers threatened a strike as their down time / repair costs would soar without an anti wear package. Auto Mfg.s made bearing clearances smaller, compressing the 'oil wave' that rides on a journal to work with 'other' changes made to Oil ref. heat - to offset the loss of ZDDP. There were many engine / cam / lifter failures once ZDDP was removed - it caught CRANE CAMS flat_footed. So, if you're asking me, I would add EOS to any non cat. equipped vehicle. My 1989 Cherokee runs Mobil 1 DelVac, the Diesel Oil with ZDDP and I add a pint of EOS, however I will deny this in any EPA lawsuit stemming from this statement. _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:55:07 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: fsj: Early wag spotted in N Seattle junkyard My son spotted an OHC Wagoneer near my place in the parts yard. Someone scored the carb and valvecover already. He thought it was a 4 speed (more likely a 3 speed floor shift) He's going to score the grill for me tomorrow (if it's not gone already) and a D44 rear axle for my Comanche as well as a Model 20 for my Spirit (kicking myself for fixing the Model 15 now!) _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:44:31 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? we took the '89 GW to get emissions tested, it failed at idle... suspect the carb... haven't seen the specs yet... I've always suspected that this carb needs attention... my son has decided he wants to get a Mercedes Diesel for commuting to school, so we're selling the '89 GW... of course it'll sell easier if it passes emissions. :) john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:43:03 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? I'll wait to see the numbers before calling it a bad carb. Did you change plugs and do an oil change right before taking it in? Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:44:31 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: fsj-at-digest.net > CC: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? > > we took the '89 GW to get emissions tested, it failed > at idle... suspect the carb... haven't seen the specs yet... > > I've always suspected that this carb needs attention... > > my son has decided he wants to get a Mercedes Diesel > for commuting to school, so we're selling the '89 GW... > of course it'll sell easier if it passes emissions. :) > > john > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:50:21 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? the plugs were good, but no... my son didn't do anything... I haven't seen the numbers yet either, but it starts hard, idles poorly and I've already gone through the vacuum stuff... john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Jim Blair wrote: # I'll wait to see the numbers before calling it a bad carb. # Did you change plugs and do an oil change right before taking it in? # # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # # # > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:44:31 -0800 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: fsj-at-digest.net # > CC: diesel-benz-at-digest.net # > Subject: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? # > # > we took the '89 GW to get emissions tested, it failed # > at idle... suspect the carb... haven't seen the specs yet... # > # > I've always suspected that this carb needs attention... # > # > my son has decided he wants to get a Mercedes Diesel # > for commuting to school, so we're selling the '89 GW... # > of course it'll sell easier if it passes emissions. :) # > # > john # > # > ----- # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # _________________________________________________________________ # Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! # http://biggestloser.msn.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:56:39 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: Re: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? John, I've got one. But if you take it, you have to take Fred Fitzgerald's old Qjet and Brad Seevers's old Edelbrock 4v. I don't think I'll need these anymore. I think the 2v actually came from you. I picked it up at Fred's house when he was getting rid of stuff. It was attached to the intake manifold, which long ago went to the salvage yard. Pay for the shipping and it's yours. Greg - ----- Original Message ---- From: john To: full size jeep list Cc: diesel-benz list Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 9:44:31 AM Subject: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? we took the '89 GW to get emissions tested, it failed at idle... suspect the carb... haven't seen the specs yet... I've always suspected that this carb needs attention... my son has decided he wants to get a Mercedes Diesel for commuting to school, so we're selling the '89 GW... of course it'll sell easier if it passes emissions. :) john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:42:23 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? sounds like a good deal to me... but let me see if Jim Blair or my other wrench friend can work magic once they see the numbers... I swiped the report out of the glovebox on my way out... :) will post details separately for clarity. if that's the carb I'm thinking of it's the original one from Old Blue that was rebuilt and dialed in... forgot all about that one... is the edelbrock the 1406? love those carbs... my son put one he rescued out of the wrecking yard on his Ford 460... amazing, it's only what, a 600cfm and it doesn't seem to hold that 460 back at all. ;) john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Greg Loxtercamp wrote: # John, I've got one. But if you take it, you have to take Fred Fitzgerald's old Qjet and Brad Seevers's old Edelbrock 4v. I don't think I'll need these anymore. I think the 2v actually came from you. I picked it up at Fred's house when he was getting rid of stuff. It was attached to the intake manifold, which long ago went to the salvage yard. Pay for the shipping and it's yours. # # Greg # # ----- Original Message ---- # From: john # To: full size jeep list # Cc: diesel-benz list # Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 9:44:31 AM # Subject: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? # # we took the '89 GW to get emissions tested, it failed # at idle... suspect the carb... haven't seen the specs yet... # # I've always suspected that this carb needs attention... # # my son has decided he wants to get a Mercedes Diesel # for commuting to school, so we're selling the '89 GW... # of course it'll sell easier if it passes emissions. :) # # john # # ----- # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # # # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:46:34 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: Re: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? It probably is the one from Old Blue. So, New Blue could have the carb from Old Blue...too cool... I'm out of town starting tonight, so I wouldn't be able to send them off till next week...if you want them. All, if John doesn't want them, they are open to the group. Or, if you want one of the 4v's let me know. The Edelbrock is in pieces, but comes with some kind of kit...maybe a choke kit...maybe a rebuild kit. The Qjet worked when removed. Greg - ----- Original Message ---- From: john To: Greg Loxtercamp Cc: full size jeep list Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:42:23 AM Subject: Re: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? sounds like a good deal to me... but let me see if Jim Blair or my other wrench friend can work magic once they see the numbers... I swiped the report out of the glovebox on my way out... :) will post details separately for clarity. if that's the carb I'm thinking of it's the original one from Old Blue that was rebuilt and dialed in... forgot all about that one... is the edelbrock the 1406? love those carbs... my son put one he rescued out of the wrecking yard on his Ford 460... amazing, it's only what, a 600cfm and it doesn't seem to hold that 460 back at all. ;) john ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Greg Loxtercamp wrote: # John, I've got one. But if you take it, you have to take Fred Fitzgerald's old Qjet and Brad Seevers's old Edelbrock 4v. I don't think I'll need these anymore. I think the 2v actually came from you. I picked it up at Fred's house when he was getting rid of stuff. It was attached to the intake manifold, which long ago went to the salvage yard. Pay for the shipping and it's yours. # # Greg # # ----- Original Message ---- # From: john # To: full size jeep list # Cc: diesel-benz list # Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 9:44:31 AM # Subject: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? # # we took the '89 GW to get emissions tested, it failed # at idle... suspect the carb... haven't seen the specs yet... # # I've always suspected that this carb needs attention... # # my son has decided he wants to get a Mercedes Diesel # for commuting to school, so we're selling the '89 GW... # of course it'll sell easier if it passes emissions. :) # # john # # ----- # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # # # # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:47:15 +0000 From: michel balea Subject: RE: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? Give us the numbers..... 1) not warm enough.... 5-10 miles on the freeway, let it idle at the test center in neutral not to heat up the trany, parking brakes on.... even if you have to wait 5 minutes.... and before giving it away, high idle for 20-30 seconds. 2) gas cap defective 3) blown power valve (if it has bad idle) 4) EGR CTO not working 5) timing is off (hard to start) 6) misfiring due to defective coil wires, but i am sure you have the best wires.... I was never convinced of the oil change.... the HC test is based on hexane, the 85 GW passed w flying color and it is burning 1Q / 200 miles (valves seals) and big puff of smoke when parked nose down. My oil was 6 months old. Michel > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:50:21 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: RE: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? > > the plugs were good, but no... my son didn't do anything... > > I haven't seen the numbers yet either, but it starts hard, > idles poorly and I've already gone through the vacuum stuff... > > john > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Thu, 28 Feb 2008, Jim Blair wrote: > > # I'll wait to see the numbers before calling it a bad carb. > # Did you change plugs and do an oil change right before taking it in? > # > # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > # > # > # > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:44:31 -0800 > # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > # > To: fsj-at-digest.net > # > CC: diesel-benz-at-digest.net > # > Subject: fsj: anyone have a spare stock 2v 360 carb? > # > > # > we took the '89 GW to get emissions tested, it failed > # > at idle... suspect the carb... haven't seen the specs yet... > # > > # > I've always suspected that this carb needs attention... > # > > # > my son has decided he wants to get a Mercedes Diesel > # > for commuting to school, so we're selling the '89 GW... > # > of course it'll sell easier if it passes emissions. :) > # > > # > john > # > > # > ----- > # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > # > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > # _________________________________________________________________ > # Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! > # http://biggestloser.msn.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:10:01 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: the failed emissions test report - 89 GW (and Diesel info) It looks as though the problem is only at idle. HC (ppm)CO(%) CO+CO2(%)O2(%) RPM Idle Limit 220 1.2 6 n/a n/a Idle Emissions 360 1.96 14.06 2.97 610 Idle Result FAIL FAIL n/a n/a n/a This doesn't look that bad to me... my first run with Old Blue was much worse if I remember correctly... We have NOT changed the plugs or the oil on this Jeep and it may even have gas that's years old too. We get one free retest, then spend another $15 after that. Plugs and oil change, adjust the carb idle jets and set the timing??? Thoughts? Here's a link to the report on line: http://www.emissiontestwa.com/TestRecord.aspx?VIN=1J4GS5877KP104156&TSDT=2/27/2008%2012:28:33%20PM Info on the test: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=173-422-060 I don't think a 4wd vehicle can do this test(dynameter): http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=173-422-070 Summary of all results below: - -------------------------------- 1989 Grand Wagoneer: 360V8/Automatic/test weight 4750/ TEST TYPE: ASM HC (ppm)CO(%) CO+CO2(%)O2(%) RPM Cruise Limit 200 1.5 6 n/a n/a Cruise Emissions 82 0.95 14.55 1.83 n/a Cruise Results PASS PASS n/a n/a n/a Idle Limit 220 1.2 6 n/a n/a Idle Emissions 360 1.96 14.06 2.97 610 Idle Result FAIL FAIL n/a n/a n/a - ------------------------------------------------------------------- DIESEL TEST INFO HERE: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=173-422-075 ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:20:02 +0000 From: michel balea Subject: RE: fsj: the failed emissions test report - 89 GW (and Diesel info) Power valve not connected or blown, high HC and high CO are a match for the idle, the O2 is good(not larger than 4 or lower than 1), the idle rpm is a tad low (TSM specs, but you can go to 750 for the test, max is 1000rpm to pass)... higher idle helps to boost clean combustion. when you disco the power hose.... if gas is dribbling from it... you know it is blown. No NO test? off to get that EOS... the local GM has it. Michel > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:10:01 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: jonkessler-at-hotmail.com; inisadow-at-hotmail.com; fsj-at-digest.net; carnuck1-at-msn.com; DZAshby-at-verizon.net; carnuck-at-hotmail.com > CC: dieseljohn-at-comcast.net; xj-at-digest.net; diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: the failed emissions test report - 89 GW (and Diesel info) > > It looks as though the problem is only at idle. > > HC (ppm)CO(%) CO+CO2(%)O2(%) RPM > Idle Limit 220 1.2 6 n/a n/a > Idle Emissions 360 1.96 14.06 2.97 610 > Idle Result FAIL FAIL n/a n/a n/a > > This doesn't look that bad to me... my first run with Old Blue > was much worse if I remember correctly... We have NOT changed > the plugs or the oil on this Jeep and it may even have gas that's > years old too. We get one free retest, then spend another $15 > after that. Plugs and oil change, adjust the carb idle jets > and set the timing??? Thoughts? > > > Here's a link to the report on line: > > http://www.emissiontestwa.com/TestRecord.aspx?VIN=1J4GS5877KP104156&TSDT=2/27 /2008%2012:28:33%20PM > > Info on the test: > http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=173-422-060 > I don't think a 4wd vehicle can do this test(dynameter): > http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=173-422-070 > > > Summary of all results below: > -------------------------------- > 1989 Grand Wagoneer: 360V8/Automatic/test weight 4750/ TEST TYPE: ASM > HC (ppm)CO(%) CO+CO2(%)O2(%) RPM > Cruise Limit 200 1.5 6 n/a n/a > Cruise Emissions 82 0.95 14.55 1.83 n/a > Cruise Results PASS PASS n/a n/a n/a > > Idle Limit 220 1.2 6 n/a n/a > Idle Emissions 360 1.96 14.06 2.97 610 > Idle Result FAIL FAIL n/a n/a n/a > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DIESEL TEST INFO HERE: > http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=173-422-075 > > > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://freegift.com ** http://wagoneers.com ** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail.-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3020 **************************