From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Aug 4 17:31:03 2008 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, August 5 2008 Volume 01 : Number 3143 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) fsj: Snohomish in the news fsj: fleet reduction fsj: the future is Diesel... RE: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) RE: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 11:12:23 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) popcorn ready? ;) have another frankenstein Jeep idea... :) sure, I'm selling two of my "functioning" Jeeps... still have the '67 J100 (takes 25 gallons to fill up btw), and my '83 J10 stepside that is in Centralia... no engine... and that's where the idea starts... talking to an engineer friend at work we started talking about electrics and hybrids... got me thinking... there is no way I can sell SuperDawg as is... :) no one is going to buy a shell, classic shell that it is... The Blazer/Benz combo will take care of all our driving needs, leaving me to have a project stuffed in the back of the carport... So, I'm thinking of a couple of options: 1) full electric - 2 motors on the pinions of each axle, this works out as the front axle has a 3.31 gear set, rear axle 4.10. use one for starting, one for cruising, that way I wouldn't need as much range on the motors. For 4wd use I'd just drive both motors... would take a bit of engineering, but nothing outrageous... if using 4wd I'd be on slippery stuff anyway, so 100% synch not required. 2) a quicker more flexible solution: I could use a mercedes Diesel driveline, rear wheel drive setup only with an electric motor on the front pinion... I could quickly get the J10 up and running in 2wd mode, 3.0L TD with automatic... 4.10 in the rear should work fine in town... I could use the benz motor to drive a generator as well, maybe off of a pulley, and the electric motor as a boost and for 4wd... hmmm... I think this is a link to a 65K generator: http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors.html or as the primary source of power in town... would require fewer batteries less weight... a Diesel hybrid... a Mercedes/Full Size Jeep/Diesel hybrid... :) this solves the transfer case/regearing issue... the money I'd save on the front axle gear swap could be used for the electric motor... plus I could run on veggie oil and biodiesel. I've priced out 3.0L I-5's with Automatics before... very affordable... and having supplemental electric to get it going solves the issue of having the smaller mercedes pushing the heavier jeep about. This wouldn't be a family rig, or a cross country all in one vehicle... and it would take a long time to get it running... so instead of rebuilding the existing carport I'm thinking I'll add an arbor setup in the drive to cover the Blazer and the Benz, reroof and enclose the carport to hold SuperDawg and start a hybrid project... :) First step, get the carport setup and enclosed... then have SuperDawg reassembled and drag him home. then find a driveline and install... get him moving about under his own power, then find an electric motor... and get it rolling... SuperDawg is now emissions exempt... we waited long enough. ;) So, another project begins without the pressure of making it perfect or quick... and I have my obligatory Full Size Jeep, and Mercedes Diesel... and yes, I'll use an XJ console in the J10, along with WJ seats... Need to find some large beams for the driveway arbor now... :) I think the beams need to be about 25 to 30 feet long, at least 8x8 or larger... anyone know where I can get some??? (yes, I have a chain saw, but I'd prefer that I didn't attempt to get these out of the nearby mountains myself. ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To: John > Subject: RE: new toy - lunch time viewing > > Now you're cooking with elctric power! The key is power management, it is NOT trivial the moste efficient systems (Prius & Volt) use 3 Phase motors, 300-500 volts DC is inverted to 220-240 Volt 3 phase AC that passes though a very sophisticated "black box" which "massaages" and delivers the power to the single 3 phase motor driving the 2 front wheels. If you go to 4 independent "wheel motors" the "black box" must get VERY smart because it becomes the electronic transfer case and differentials. > Here is one outfit in the UK that has doen this to a Mini Cooper: http://www.pmlflightlink.com/, QED = Quad Electric Drive > > Douglas > I've thought about this a bit, for a 4x4 just use 4 electric motors... or two, attached > to the pinion of each axle... that makes the most sense... no driveshafts... > > hmmm... I have a 1983 J10 Stepside... I could set it up as an electric vehicle... > if I did that I wouldn't have to regear the front axle, it's 3.31, rear is 4.10. I could > use this to my advantage... one for getting it moving, the other for cruising... and if > I needed 4wd I just run the motors at different RPMs. > > I could put a small generator on board with electric start... line the bed with batteries > under a false floor, the engine bay with batteries... two large electric motors... > > this thing would be quick, low center of gravity, totally quiet, except when the generator > was running to charge the batteries... :) > > you got me thinking... :) > > From: Douglas > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 9:51 AM > Subject: RE: new toy - lunch time viewing > So now that GM will be introcucing the Chevy Volt a pliug-in series Hybrid Electric car, (meaning that the engine ONLY drives a gnerator, and ONLY runs if the batteries need charging). If dirven 4o miles or les a day and plugged every nigh> t the engine Genset will NEVER run. > GM needs to do a 4WD Blazer / Yukion / Tahoe variant with a larger engine driving two Volt sized generators or a larger generator, and some more batteries. Electric offroading, a whole new sub-culture will emerge. > > Douglas ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 11:48:47 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Snohomish in the news Snohomish, an old native American word meaning BAD roads with no shoulders... (my interpretation.. ;) in the news, confirmation of the probably truth of this translation... :) and perhaps a new meaning to the phrase involving the word "dump"... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Rig dumps tons of dirt when nature calls driver (fwd) Sent from Express News SNOHOMISH, Wash. - Authorities say a truck driver who spilled tons of dirt along a Seattle highway and backed up traffic for hours just really had to go to the bathroom. Police say the driver was trying to ease the rig to the side of U.S. Highway 2 on Friday morning. The wheels of the truck slipped down an embankment and dumped its contents - 49 tons of river sediment. State Trooper Keith A. Leary says the driver apparently was unfamiliar with the area. Filling stations and other businesses with restrooms were a few miles away. The 27-year-old was cited for driving with wheels off the road. Leary says the trucking company will be billed for the cleanup. - --- Information from: The Herald, http://www.heraldnet.com The Associated Press ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 12:55:41 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: fleet reduction selling two of our Jeeps: 1999 Grand Cherokee with 4.7L V8 - 21 mpg freeway http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/car/782831274.html everything works perfectly... http://wagoneers.com/fotos/johns-cars/99WJ/ 1991 Grand Wagoneer with 6.2L Diesel - 23+ mpg freeway http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/car/774209972.html only thing not working is the cruise control... http://wagoneers.com/fotos/johns-cars/91SJ/ and, I'm looking for a Mercedes Turbo Diesel and Automatic transmission... planning a Diesel Hybrid for SuperDawg... :) yet another Frankenstein project from the Snohomish Monster carport... ----- john - -------------- '94 Chevy Blazer 6.5L TD http://wagoneers.com/fotos/johns-cars/94-K1500/ '75 J10 hydraulic dump trailer '91 300D 2.5L TD - -------------- '83 J10 stepside with no drivetrain '67 J100 Panel (son's graduation present) - -------------- '47 Bantam T3-C trailer (for sale) '99 WJ for sale / '91 Grand Wag for sale - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 13:12:03 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: the future is Diesel... sharing... viva la Diesel... :) I've known this for years... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Bruce Caruthers Excerpt from "Is Diesel Set to Boom in the U.S.?" http://www.ricardo.com/download/pdf/R119361S.pdf - -- Pollution ('dirty' exhausts) no longer an issue In the developed triad (Japan, North America, and the European Union), the pollution problem is essentially solved. If this statement elicits scepticism, note that: # A modern car emits fewer pollutants /while running/ than a 1970s vintage (pre-emission controls) car emits /turned off/ -- as the latter vents unburned hydrocarbons into the atmosphere from its leaky fuel system. # Painting an average room in an average house with a gallon of gloss paint emits more volatile organic compounds than driving a Prius 150,000 miles. # On a typical warm day in Los Angeles an AT-PZEV (Advanced-Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicle, in California regulator terminology), such as a Honda Insight hybrid, will exhaust cleaner air than it takes in. Due to the efforts of regulators, car companies, suppliers, and countless engineers, the problem of emission of pollutants from new cars is thus effectively solved. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 16:47:33 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) yep, there is a young man in San Antonio that converted a Jeep Cherokee (XJ) to electric, he spent about $10-12K doing it, has about 100 mile range... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 4 Aug 2008, Nathaniel Butts wrote: # >From my own research on the subject (toyed around as a possible senior mech eng project) this will cost between $10-12000 and you might get about 25 miles in range, if you're lucky. The two biggest factors on range for a full electric or hybrid is weight and aerodynamics...... # # -----Original Message----- # From: "john" # Sent: 8/4/08 1:12 PM # Subject: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) # # popcorn ready? ;) have another frankenstein Jeep idea... :) # # # sure, I'm selling two of my "functioning" Jeeps... still have # the '67 J100 (takes 25 gallons to fill up btw), and my '83 J10 # stepside that is in Centralia... no engine... and that's where # the idea starts... # # talking to an engineer friend at work we started talking about electrics # and hybrids... got me thinking... # # there is no way I can sell SuperDawg as is... :) no one is going to buy # a shell, classic shell that it is... # # The Blazer/Benz combo will take care of all our driving needs, leaving # me to have a project stuffed in the back of the carport... # # So, I'm thinking of a couple of options: # # 1) full electric - 2 motors on the pinions of each axle, this works # out as the front axle has a 3.31 gear set, rear axle 4.10. # use one for starting, one for cruising, # that way I wouldn't need as much range on the motors. For 4wd use # I'd just drive both motors... would take a bit of engineering, but nothing # outrageous... if using 4wd I'd be on slippery stuff anyway, so 100% synch not required. # # 2) a quicker more flexible solution: # I could use a mercedes Diesel driveline, rear wheel drive setup only with # an electric motor on the front pinion... I could quickly get the J10 # up and running in 2wd mode, 3.0L TD with automatic... 4.10 in the rear # should work fine in town... # # I could use the benz motor to drive a generator as # well, maybe off of a pulley, and the electric motor as a boost # and for 4wd... hmmm... # # I think this is a link to a 65K generator: # http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors.html # # or as the primary source of power in town... # would require fewer batteries less weight... # # a Diesel hybrid... a Mercedes/Full Size Jeep/Diesel hybrid... :) # # this solves the transfer case/regearing issue... the money I'd # save on the front axle gear swap could be used for the electric motor... # plus I could run on veggie oil and biodiesel. # # # I've priced out 3.0L I-5's with Automatics before... very affordable... # and having supplemental electric to get it going solves the issue of having # the smaller mercedes pushing the heavier jeep about. # # This wouldn't be a family rig, or a cross country all in one vehicle... and it # would take a long time to get it running... # # so instead of rebuilding the existing carport I'm thinking I'll add an arbor # setup in the drive to cover the Blazer and the Benz, reroof and enclose the # carport to hold SuperDawg and start a hybrid project... :) # # # First step, get the carport setup and enclosed... # then have SuperDawg reassembled and drag him home. # # then find a driveline and install... get him moving about under his own power, then # find an electric motor... and get it rolling... # SuperDawg is now emissions exempt... we waited long enough. ;) # # So, another project begins without the pressure of making it perfect or # quick... and I have my obligatory Full Size Jeep, and Mercedes Diesel... and # yes, I'll use an XJ console in the J10, along with WJ seats... # # Need to find some large beams for the driveway arbor now... :) # # I think the beams need to be about 25 to 30 feet long, at least 8x8 or larger... # anyone know where I can get some??? (yes, I have a chain saw, but I'd # prefer that I didn't attempt to get these out of the nearby mountains myself. ;) # # john # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ # SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL # ------------------------------------------------------------------------- # > To: John # > Subject: RE: new toy - lunch time viewing # > # > Now you're cooking with elctric power! The key is power management, it is NOT trivial the moste efficient systems (Prius & Volt) use 3 Phase motors, 300-500 volts DC is inverted to 220-240 Volt 3 phase AC that passes though a very sophisticated "black box" which "massaages" and delivers the power to the single 3 phase motor driving the 2 front wheels. If you go to 4 independent "wheel motors" the "black box" must get VERY smart because it becomes the electronic transfer case and differentials. # > Here is one outfit in the UK that has doen this to a Mini Cooper: http://www.pmlflightlink.com/, QED = Quad Electric Drive # > # > Douglas # > I've thought about this a bit, for a 4x4 just use 4 electric motors... or two, attached # > to the pinion of each axle... that makes the most sense... no driveshafts.. # > # > hmmm... I have a 1983 J10 Stepside... I could set it up as an electric vehicle... # > if I did that I wouldn't have to regear the front axle, it's 3.31, rear is 4.10. I could # > use this to my advantage... one for getting it moving, the other for cruising... and if # > I needed 4wd I just run the motors at different RPMs. # > # > I could put a small generator on board with electric start... line the bed with batteries # > under a false floor, the engine bay with batteries... two large electric motors... # > # > this thing would be quick, low center of gravity, totally quiet, except when the generator # > was running to charge the batteries... :) # > # > you got me thinking... :) # > # > From: Douglas # > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 9:51 AM # > Subject: RE: new toy - lunch time viewing # > So now that GM will be introcucing the Chevy Volt a pliug-in series Hybrid Electric car, (meaning that the engine ONLY drives a gnerator, and ONLY runs if the batteries need charging). If dirven 4o miles or les a day and plugged every nigh> t the engine Genset will NEVER run. # > GM needs to do a 4WD Blazer / Yukion / Tahoe variant with a larger engine driving two Volt sized generators or a larger generator, and some more batteries. Electric offroading, a whole new sub-culture will emerge. # > # > Douglas # # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 00:23:30 +0000 From: michel balea Subject: RE: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) $10K is a good deal.... an electric bike.... is about $6K..... range is 25-30 depending on hills..... speed up to 30 mph.... be ready for impacts as most people won't expect to see a bicycle going this fast. Michel > Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 16:47:33 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: nathanielbutts-at-insightbb.com > CC: xj-at-digest.net; fsj-at-digest.net; diesel-benz-at-digest.net > Subject: RE: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) > > yep, there is a young man in San Antonio that converted a Jeep Cherokee (XJ) to electric, > he spent about $10-12K doing it, has about 100 mile range... > > john > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ > SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On Mon, 4 Aug 2008, Nathaniel Butts wrote: > > # >From my own research on the subject (toyed around as a possible senior mech eng project) this will cost between $10-12000 and you might get about 25 miles in range, if you're lucky. The two biggest factors on range for a full electric or hybrid is weight and aerodynamics...... > # > # -----Original Message----- > # From: "john" > # Sent: 8/4/08 1:12 PM > # Subject: fsj: electric power / hybrid (fwd) > # > # popcorn ready? ;) have another frankenstein Jeep idea... :) > # > # > # sure, I'm selling two of my "functioning" Jeeps... still have > # the '67 J100 (takes 25 gallons to fill up btw), and my '83 J10 > # stepside that is in Centralia... no engine... and that's where > # the idea starts... > # > # talking to an engineer friend at work we started talking about electrics > # and hybrids... got me thinking... > # > # there is no way I can sell SuperDawg as is... :) no one is going to buy > # a shell, classic shell that it is... > # > # The Blazer/Benz combo will take care of all our driving needs, leaving > # me to have a project stuffed in the back of the carport... > # > # So, I'm thinking of a couple of options: > # > # 1) full electric - 2 motors on the pinions of each axle, this works > # out as the front axle has a 3.31 gear set, rear axle 4.10. > # use one for starting, one for cruising, > # that way I wouldn't need as much range on the motors. For 4wd use > # I'd just drive both motors... would take a bit of engineering, but nothing > # outrageous... if using 4wd I'd be on slippery stuff anyway, so 100% synch not required. > # > # 2) a quicker more flexible solution: > # I could use a mercedes Diesel driveline, rear wheel drive setup only with > # an electric motor on the front pinion... I could quickly get the J10 > # up and running in 2wd mode, 3.0L TD with automatic... 4.10 in the rear > # should work fine in town... > # > # I could use the benz motor to drive a generator as > # well, maybe off of a pulley, and the electric motor as a boost > # and for 4wd... hmmm... > # > # I think this is a link to a 65K generator: > # http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors.html > # > # or as the primary source of power in town... > # would require fewer batteries less weight... > # > # a Diesel hybrid... a Mercedes/Full Size Jeep/Diesel hybrid... :) > # > # this solves the transfer case/regearing issue... the money I'd > # save on the front axle gear swap could be used for the electric motor... > # plus I could run on veggie oil and biodiesel. > # > # > # I've priced out 3.0L I-5's with Automatics before... very affordable... > # and having supplemental electric to get it going solves the issue of having > # the smaller mercedes pushing the heavier jeep about. > # > # This wouldn't be a family rig, or a cross country all in one vehicle... and it > # would take a long time to get it running... > # > # so instead of rebuilding the existing carport I'm thinking I'll add an arbor > # setup in the drive to cover the Blazer and the Benz, reroof and enclose the > # carport to hold SuperDawg and start a hybrid project... :) > # > # > # First step, get the carport setup and enclosed... > # then have SuperDawg reassembled and drag him home. > # > # then find a driveline and install... get him moving about under his own power, then > # find an electric motor... and get it rolling... > # SuperDawg is now emissions exempt... we waited long enough. ;) > # > # So, another project begins without the pressure of making it perfect or > # quick... and I have my obligatory Full Size Jeep, and Mercedes Diesel... and > # yes, I'll use an XJ console in the J10, along with WJ seats... > # > # Need to find some large beams for the driveway arbor now... :) > # > # I think the beams need to be about 25 to 30 feet long, at least 8x8 or larger... > # anyone know where I can get some??? (yes, I have a chain saw, but I'd > # prefer that I didn't attempt to get these out of the nearby mountains myself. ;) > # > # john > # > # ----- > # - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > # http://wagoneers.com john's 6.2L GW: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ > # SAVE FUEL use AMSOIL Synthetics: http://wagoneers.com/AMSOIL > # - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > # > To: John > # > Subject: RE: new toy - lunch time viewing > # > > # > Now you're cooking with elctric power! The key is power management, it is NOT trivial the moste efficient systems (Prius & Volt) use 3 Phase motors, 300-500 volts DC is inverted to 220-240 Volt 3 phase AC that passes though a very sophisticated "black box" which "massaages" and delivers the power to the single 3 phase motor driving the 2 front wheels. If you go to 4 independent "wheel motors" the "black box" must get VERY smart because it becomes the electronic transfer case and differentials. > # > Here is one outfit in the UK that has doen this to a Mini Cooper: http://www.pmlflightlink.com/, QED = Quad Electric Drive > # > > # > Douglas > # > I've thought about this a bit, for a 4x4 just use 4 electric motors... or two, attached > # > to the pinion of each axle... that makes the most sense... no driveshafts.. > # > > # > hmmm... I have a 1983 J10 Stepside... I could set it up as an electric vehicle... > # > if I did that I wouldn't have to regear the front axle, it's 3.31, rear is 4.10. I could > # > use this to my advantage... one for getting it moving, the other for cruising... and if > # > I needed 4wd I just run the motors at different RPMs. > # > > # > I could put a small generator on board with electric start... line the bed with batteries > # > under a false floor, the engine bay with batteries... two large electric motors... > # > > # > this thing would be quick, low center of gravity, totally quiet, except when the generator > # > was running to charge the batteries... :) > # > > # > you got me thinking... :) > # > > # > From: Douglas > # > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 9:51 AM > # > Subject: RE: new toy - lunch time viewing > # > So now that GM will be introcucing the Chevy Volt a pliug-in series Hybrid Electric car, (meaning that the engine ONLY drives a gnerator, and ONLY runs if the batteries need charging). If dirven 4o miles or les a day and plugged every nigh> t the engine Genset will NEVER run. > # > GM needs to do a 4WD Blazer / Yukion / Tahoe variant with a larger engine driving two Volt sized generators or a larger generator, and some more batteries. Electric offroading, a whole new sub-culture will emerge. > # > > # > Douglas > # > # _________________________________________________________________ Your PC, mobile phone, and online services work together like never before. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108587394/direct/01/ ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3143 **************************