From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Dec 3 17:31:14 2008 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Thursday, December 4 2008 Volume 01 : Number 3214 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: RE: [db] cummins Re: fsj: 1976 Jeep Wagoneer fsj: RE: RE: [db] cummins RE: fsj: 1976 Jeep Wagoneer RE: fsj: 1976 Jeep Wagoneer fsj: turning diameter/circle question Re: fsj: turning diameter/circle question Re: fsj: turning diameter/circle question fsj: Re: [db] Cheap Gas fsj: Re: [db] turning diameter/circle question FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 20:43:28 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: RE: [db] cummins going to pass... my wife took one look and said no way... besides the fact that she said it looks ugly, it's impractical... with her back she has to be able to recline the seat... even if this got 17 to 18 in town it's only a mpg more than my blazer... http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/cto/941480130.html the comments about the AT have me mildy concerned as well... guess the blazer is a better rig despite having to use a trailer to haul my WVO barrels. ;) it is a superb tow rig... even at 4 tons it has no trouble keeping up with traffic or leaving it behind... thanx for the input guys... but the reality of it is I really don't want something that big... and I'm not too keen on building my own any more either... might try it with one of the j10s, but will probably stick with the blazer. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 2 Dec 2008, FParker wrote: # # That's a nice looking one, for sure. Let me know if you pass! I got 20-22 # pulling a car trailer with mine. 5 speed OD trans, 3.54 gears, and 33" # tires. # # Fred # # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net # [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john # Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 7:48 PM # To: full size jeep list; diesel-benz list; FParker # Subject: [db] cummins # # # what kind of mileage would a '92 Dodge 250 with a cummins get? # # might take a look at this one... # http://wagoneers.com/tmp/1992DodgePU11-10-08001.JPG # http://wagoneers.com/tmp/1992DodgePU11-10-08013.JPG # # would get rid of my trailer, the blazer and the 2 j10s... and try to put a # dump bed on the dodge... # would still have three vehicles... ;) # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 00:22:53 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: 1976 Jeep Wagoneer Ran the search term "die" through the log on my '88 and got these few ideas... A throttle solenoid not being there will let it drop the idle low and it just drops dead. Can restart easily and continue, but may drop dead again at next stop. Sometimes can "feel it in the pedal" when the solenoid drops. It lets the throttle cable move noticeably. I also had a bad ECU that did this and wish you lived near Indy, as I've acquired a half dozen of those things over time. Some with one connector type and others with different ones. Anyway the only one of these I ever replaced that really solved the problem but in all fairness I think the ECU was blown by the wiring harness. In my case I had wires that had gotten overheated by the exhaust manifold or internal failure I never could quite tell. But they melted together and it involved the "resistance" wire. Essentially the ECU circuit that should have been getting juice at about 6 volts was getting it at 12, so I think the ECU got cooked in that fiasco as it all had to be replaced to get things working normally again. But the bad wiring harness was a lot of fun. BEEZARRE multiple symptoms. Once passing another car, I kicked it down and wound it up a bit only to have it start gagging out, bucked a couple times and died. A wire into my homemade connection to the coil had gotten stretched tight somehow and when the motor flexed on the motor mounts, it pulled the connector apart, ceasing all firing immediately. A failing coil can do this also. Of course the Book of "... can do this also" is a long and expensive read.... Check the Pickup coil in the distributor, make sure it's intact at least. There is an electrical check but I'm about to drop so honestly I can't look for it right now... If needed let me know. Fuel pump normally works or doesn't. Can you restart and drive it normally for xxx time and suddenly it dies again? Or does it just start/die. start/die. ? Enquiring minds want to know.... JeepNut "He knows so little and knows it so fluently." ~Ellen Glasgow - ---------------------------------------------------------- #1 '87 Street Comanche #24/100 - Currently Offline #2 '92 Cherokee Laredo - Bone stock #3 '88 Grand Wagoneer -'81 AMC 360 -.030 over; Edelbrock Performer w/ 600cfm 4bbl; TFI ignition upgrade; F727 -mild kit; NP229; D44's F/R -3:31; 6" lift kit; stainless steel brake lines; ProComp 3000 shocks; Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15; OEM 14 Spoke Wagonwheels; IPF 65/55 lamps; Dozer front bumper; ...and more to come. #4 '04 Grand Cherokee Limited - Bone stock And they say ..."There's Only One"... - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 Kobe Benny wrote: > If my electronic ignition module is bad will the engine run for a couple of > minutes then all of a sudden just quit for no reason. What else could this be > a symptom of ? I have check everything. KOBY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 00:34:52 -0700 From: "Tesar Landon" Subject: fsj: RE: RE: [db] cummins They are a beast, that cab design is 1972, so it was a time of a lot less traffic, a lot more dirt roads, and a lot more space. Our population has grown 50% since that truck was designed. We get the tractor out when moving stuff around the yard. It won't handle a trailer like a SWB JEEP. - - Landon - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:43 PM To: FParker Cc: full size jeep list; diesel-benz list Subject: fsj: RE: [db] cummins going to pass... my wife took one look and said no way... besides the fact that she said it looks ugly, it's impractical... with her back she has to be able to recline the seat... even if this got 17 to 18 in town it's only a mpg more than my blazer... http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/cto/941480130.html the comments about the AT have me mildy concerned as well... guess the blazer is a better rig despite having to use a trailer to haul my WVO barrels. ;) it is a superb tow rig... even at 4 tons it has no trouble keeping up with traffic or leaving it behind... thanx for the input guys... but the reality of it is I really don't want something that big... and I'm not too keen on building my own any more either... might try it with one of the j10s, but will probably stick with the blazer. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 2 Dec 2008, FParker wrote: # # That's a nice looking one, for sure. Let me know if you pass! I got 20-22 # pulling a car trailer with mine. 5 speed OD trans, 3.54 gears, and 33" # tires. # # Fred # # -----Original Message----- # From: owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net # [mailto:owner-diesel-benz-at-digest.net]On Behalf Of john # Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 7:48 PM # To: full size jeep list; diesel-benz list; FParker # Subject: [db] cummins # # # what kind of mileage would a '92 Dodge 250 with a cummins get? # # might take a look at this one... # http://wagoneers.com/tmp/1992DodgePU11-10-08001.JPG # http://wagoneers.com/tmp/1992DodgePU11-10-08013.JPG # # would get rid of my trailer, the blazer and the 2 j10s... and try to put a # dump bed on the dodge... # would still have three vehicles... ;) # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:32:01 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: 1976 Jeep Wagoneer That reminded me that on my '73 J4000 there was no filter before the fuel pump and a LPOS (little piece of you know what) kept getting lodged in the inlet valve, which makes the pump stop pumping. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 00:22:53 -0500 > From: thejeepnut-at-sbcglobal.net > To: fozgrin-at-yahoo.com; fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: 1976 Jeep Wagoneer > > Ran the search term "die" through the log on my '88 and got these few > ideas... > > A throttle solenoid not being there will let it drop the idle low and it > just drops dead. Can restart easily and continue, but may drop dead > again at next stop. Sometimes can "feel it in the pedal" when the > solenoid drops. It lets the throttle cable move noticeably. > > I also had a bad ECU that did this and wish you lived near Indy, as I've > acquired a half dozen of those things over time. Some with one > connector type and others with different ones. Anyway the only one of > these I ever replaced that really solved the problem but in all fairness > I think the ECU was blown by the wiring harness. In my case I had wires > that had gotten overheated by the exhaust manifold or internal failure I > never could quite tell. But they melted together and it involved the > "resistance" wire. Essentially the ECU circuit that should have been > getting juice at about 6 volts was getting it at 12, so I think the ECU > got cooked in that fiasco as it all had to be replaced to get things > working normally again. But the bad wiring harness was a lot of fun. > BEEZARRE multiple symptoms. > > Once passing another car, I kicked it down and wound it up a bit only to > have it start gagging out, bucked a couple times and died. > A wire into my homemade connection to the coil had gotten stretched > tight somehow and when the motor flexed on the motor mounts, it pulled > the connector apart, ceasing all firing immediately. > > A failing coil can do this also. Of course the Book of "... can do this > also" is a long and expensive read.... > Check the Pickup coil in the distributor, make sure it's intact at > least. There is an electrical check but I'm about to drop so honestly I > can't look for it right now... If needed let me know. > > Fuel pump normally works or doesn't. > Can you restart and drive it normally for xxx time and suddenly it dies > again? > Or does it just start/die. start/die. ? > Enquiring minds want to know.... > > JeepNut > "He knows so little and knows it so fluently." ~Ellen Glasgow > ---------------------------------------------------------- > #1 '87 Street Comanche #24/100 - Currently Offline > #2 '92 Cherokee Laredo - Bone stock > #3 '88 Grand Wagoneer -'81 AMC 360 -.030 over; > Edelbrock Performer w/ 600cfm 4bbl; TFI ignition upgrade; > F727 -mild kit; NP229; D44's F/R -3:31; 6" lift kit; > stainless steel brake lines; ProComp 3000 shocks; Maxxis > Buckshot 33x12.5x15; OEM 14 Spoke Wagonwheels; IPF 65/55 > lamps; Dozer front bumper; ...and more to come. > #4 '04 Grand Cherokee Limited - Bone stock > And they say ..."There's Only One"... > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Registered Linux user #287453 > > > Kobe Benny wrote: > > If my electronic ignition module is bad will the engine run for a couple of > > minutes then all of a sudden just quit for no reason. What else could this be > > a symptom of ? I have check everything. KOBY _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_12 2008 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:48:16 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: 1976 Jeep Wagoneer Beside the unfamous "sock" there was no filter before the fuel pump. The first time I inspected the 74 wagoneer gas tank 10 years ago, the sock had cracked open. I have been running a carter fuel pump since Ouray 02, and 40Kmiles. The shiny metal flakes that I found in the pre filter are non iron.... My fuel line is some shiny black plastic polymer. Cheers Michel 74 wag > From: carnuck > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:32:01 -0800 > That reminded me that on my '73 J4000 there was no filter before the fuel pump > and a LPOS (little piece of you know what) kept getting lodged in the inlet > valve, which makes the pump stop pumping. > > Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 _________________________________________________________________ You live life online. So we put Windows on the web. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/127032869/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:11:55 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: turning diameter/circle question Jim found this info: # As for how many football fields are necessary, I found these numbers: # Make Wheelbase Overall length Turning Radius # GC 105.9" 181.5" 18.7' # RAM 154.7" 244" 25.8' are you sure about the turning circle? 28 feet?.. or was that the length? :) the '99-'04 WJ has a turning diameter/circle of 37.4 ft. the '94 blazer (IFS)has a 41.5' turning circle... shoot, even the 190Ds take 32-38 feet... http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/mercedes-diesels.html http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/dimensions-K1500-SJ-and-others.txt http://www.wjjeeps.com/dimensions.htm you're saying that big dodge has a smaller turning diameter than the Blazer with 106" wb or the WJ or a 190D??? what GC has a turning radius of 18 feet??? what year? all GCs are not the same... there was the ZJ, WJ and now WK. the ZJ was a bit larger than an XJ... Jim, your data is a bit suspect... :) if I recall correctly even a Grand Wagoneer/J10 turns in the 35ft range... are you sure that dodge doesn't have four wheel steering too? or was the website in metric? :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Jim Hoffman wrote: # Sorry, didn't notice the question about the truck... # # They keep refining that Cummins every year. I'd look for a newer # one myself. Mine is the first year of the 24 valve but a late # 12 valve would be nice also. I'd look between around '98 and '03. # The "Gen 2" trucks are '94-'01. The "Gen 3" trucks are '02-'08 and # the new ones are "Gen 4" trucks. # # I like the styling of the Gen 2 trucks and they are in my price # range! ;) # # As for how many football fields are necessary, I found these numbers: # Make Wheelbase Overall length Turning Radius # GC 105.9" 181.5" 18.7' # RAM 154.7" 244" 25.8' # # But come on, the wheelbase alone on the RAM is almost as much as # the overall length of the GC!! ;) If you want an extended cab # pickup you're going to have to accept a wider turning radius. I # don't think there's any way around that. # # If you're serious, check out www.dodgetalk.com/forums/ # Jim # > # One football field will do just fine ;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:16:56 CST From: Dan Black Subject: Re: fsj: turning diameter/circle question john said: {- if I recall correctly even a Grand Wagoneer/J10 turns in the 35ft range... Bah. I did two 180s on purpose today. All you need is good ice/snow. I'll bet those were much shorter than the advertised turning radius. ;) (It was a 4-lane-divided in town, and there was a Lexus that had slid off into a light pole on the other side, so when I got to an open spot in the median, I did a 180 to go back and help, and then another 180 to go back the original direction afterward. Completely destroyed his back left door, but very little else, so although it sucks for him to replace that door, it's much better than it could've been if he had destroyed more sections -- a few inches forward or back, and it would've messed up at least the other door or the rear quarter.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I bent my Wookie. -- Ralph Wiggum - -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:33:39 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: turning diameter/circle question used to turn about completely within a parking spot in snow... doesn't work as well in rain. ;) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Dan Black wrote: # john said: # {- if I recall correctly even a Grand Wagoneer/J10 turns in the 35ft range... # # Bah. I did two 180s on purpose today. All you need is good ice/snow. # I'll bet those were much shorter than the advertised turning radius. ;) # # (It was a 4-lane-divided in town, and there was a Lexus that had slid # off into a light pole on the other side, so when I got to an open spot # in the median, I did a 180 to go back and help, and then another 180 to # go back the original direction afterward. Completely destroyed his back # left door, but very little else, so although it sucks for him to replace # that door, it's much better than it could've been if he had destroyed # more sections -- a few inches forward or back, and it would've messed up # at least the other door or the rear quarter.) # # ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- # I bent my Wookie. # -- Ralph Wiggum # -------------- Dan Black ------------------------- dan-at-black.org -------------- # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:03:10 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] Cheap Gas so, if we do the math... that's about 4.08 euros / gallon... for Diesel... what's the exchange rate? :) xe.com sez: 4.08 EUR = $ 5.18386 USD Euro United States Dollars 1 EUR = 1.27055 USD 1 USD = 0.787058 EUR I'll take our recent price of $2.69 with pleasure... :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Andreas Kreft wrote: # On Middeweken 03 Dezember 2008, john hat schrieven: # # Regular and premium are at 1,129 euros per liter in the Cologne / Bonn # area. Premium goes for 1,209. Diesel is strikingly low at 1,079. This is # quite a sensation here, the last time prices were so low was in early # 2005. # # > gas was 1.81 at costco in everett... # > I think Diesel is at 2.69 at safeway/shell # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com # > SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf # > SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Jim Hoffman wrote: # > # > # Saw diesel $2.629 yesterday. (S.E. Wisconsin) # > # # > # Jim # > # # > # --- On Wed, 12/3/08, Kevin wrote: # > # # > # > From: Kevin # > # > Subject: Re: [db] Cheap Gas # > # > To: "Jerome Kaidor" # > # > Cc: diesel-benz-at-digest.net # > # > Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 2:49 PM # > # > $1.67 for 87 octane and $2.39 for diesel in stockton, tack # > # > on about # > # > twenty cents a gallon for walnut creek. It certainly pays # > # > to get gas # > # > before heading up the hill, about $2 for 87 and $2.50 for # > # > diesel up # > # > the hill. # > # > # > # > On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 11:06:18AM -0800, Jerome Kaidor # > # > wrote: # > # > > *** Valero in Menlo Park on Marsh Road. # > # > $1.86/gallon! # > # # # # # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:30:16 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] turning diameter/circle question if you were to follow me around for a couple of days you might understand... :) I'm sitting in front of three monitors right now, my blackberry is vibrating letting me know yet another work email arrived... and I'm trying to log off for the day... when I get home I have to finish designing two more network courses for the university... have a truck waiting to be repaired, waiting for a ballast for the stainless steel hood vent, a timer for the washer and a bulb for the range top... just finished reprinting a bunch of 8x10s from the wedding in october and tomorrow I get to serve tables at a christmas dinner... and I need to figure out how to efficiently resize 10mp images to 2424x3030 so they print properly as 8x10s... and that's all pretty much within the last hour... excluding of course the 15 to 20 emails covering radii, curb-to-curb, years of panels, horsepower, axle ratios, wheelbases and which episode of lost is airing on g4 or the scifi channel... oh, and I have to pick up a pizza on the way home... ...if I can only remember WHERE I parked after lunch, and WHAT I drove... ;) I think I have the WJ... drove the K1500 yesterday... wife had the 300D... good thing only 3 vehicles are working right now, have a chance of finding my ride home this way. ;) if only my life were simple enough to only worry about one thing at a time... I'd probably be bored out of my ever-loving mind... ;) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Alec Cordova wrote: # I don't see the issue here. His table lists radius, you refer to the # more common diameter. Double his figures, and I get your figures. # Am I missing something, or do you just have too many options and # numbers running through your head right now to see straight? ;-) # # Alec # # On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 1:11 PM, john wrote: # > Jim found this info: # > # As for how many football fields are necessary, I found these numbers: # > # Make Wheelbase Overall length Turning Radius # > # GC 105.9" 181.5" 18.7' # > # RAM 154.7" 244" 25.8' # > # > are you sure about the turning circle? # > 28 feet?.. or was that the length? :) # > # > the '99-'04 WJ has a turning diameter/circle of 37.4 ft. # > the '94 blazer (IFS)has a 41.5' turning circle... # > # > shoot, even the 190Ds take 32-38 feet... # > http://wagoneers.com/DieselBenz/mercedes-diesels.html # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/dimensions-K1500-SJ-and-others.txt # > http://www.wjjeeps.com/dimensions.htm # > # > you're saying that big dodge has a smaller turning diameter # > than the Blazer with 106" wb or the WJ or a 190D??? # > # > what GC has a turning radius of 18 feet??? what year? # > all GCs are not the same... there was the ZJ, WJ and now WK. # > the ZJ was a bit larger than an XJ... # > # > Jim, your data is a bit suspect... :) # > if I recall correctly even a Grand Wagoneer/J10 turns in the 35ft range... # > # > are you sure that dodge doesn't have four wheel steering too? or # > was the website in metric? :) # > # > john # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com # > SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf # > SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Jim Hoffman wrote: # > # > # Sorry, didn't notice the question about the truck... # > # # > # They keep refining that Cummins every year. I'd look for a newer # > # one myself. Mine is the first year of the 24 valve but a late # > # 12 valve would be nice also. I'd look between around '98 and '03. # > # The "Gen 2" trucks are '94-'01. The "Gen 3" trucks are '02-'08 and # > # the new ones are "Gen 4" trucks. # > # # > # I like the styling of the Gen 2 trucks and they are in my price # > # range! ;) # > # # > # As for how many football fields are necessary, I found these numbers: # > # Make Wheelbase Overall length Turning Radius # > # GC 105.9" 181.5" 18.7' # > # RAM 154.7" 244" 25.8' # > # # > # But come on, the wheelbase alone on the RAM is almost as much as # > # the overall length of the GC!! ;) If you want an extended cab # > # pickup you're going to have to accept a wider turning radius. I # > # don't think there's any way around that. # > # # > # If you're serious, check out www.dodgetalk.com/forums/ # > # Jim # > # > # One football field will do just fine ;) # > # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3214 **************************