From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Jan 20 15:15:40 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, January 20 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3246 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz fsj: Re: FW: FASTEST Electric car fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz fsj: 1000hp, 35mpg! Re: fsj: 1000hp, 35mpg! fsj: Re: [db] Re: FW: FASTEST Electric car fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:19:13 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz uh-oh. :) Seattle, huh? rofl... guys, you better buy that popcorn in bulk... :) rofl... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Travis Barnard wrote: # I don't know I live in Seattle # # Popcorn and moonshine huh? # # Hmmm I suppose I could strip the copper tubing out of the radiator and make a # still. # # # On Jan 20, 2009, at 11:31 AM, Jim Hoffman wrote: # # >OH, jeez, here we go... You don't live close to John do you?!?!?! # >This could cause a HUGE run on popcorn and moonshine!! # > # > ;) # > # >Jim # > # >--- On Tue, 1/20/09, Travis Barnard wrote: # > # > >From: Travis Barnard # > >Subject: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz # > >To: diesel-benz-at-digest.net # > >Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 1:29 PM # > >I've been recently looking into a replacement body for # > >my beatup and # > >rather thrashed 300SD(I think Adam Sandler had a song about # > >a car like # > >this). # > > # > >The engine is in great shape 230K +/- very strong. With the # > >recent # > >downturn I have found a 2001 Grand Cherokee Limited for # > >under 5k and # > >after doing a little research it appears that the Jeep is # > >only about # > >300lbs heavier than my Benz. I know that the 5cyl turbo # > >diesels are a # > >bit anemic by most peoples standards but I'm really not # > >speed freak # > >anymore; a couple of years driving a VW Bus will fix that # > >for anyone. # > >So my question is this, does anyone have any experience # > >transplanting # > >motors in Jeep's and of course any concerns I should be # > >researching # > >before going further with such a crazy notion? # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:42:50 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz Just remembered one more thing... axle ratios... your WJ will most likely have 3.73 gears, most mercedes Diesels are in the 3.07 range... that means it'll be more spirited in town, but depending on the trans you use you may lose some top speed or economy on the road... the benz trans is 1:1 final, the 45RFE has an overdrive... and a complex computer. ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, john wrote: # you've come to the right place... # step into the Snohomish Monster Carport for a few minutes... :) # # I was looking at doing this to a '99 WJ not long ago... I've considered # putting a Benz Diesel into an XJ or even my J10. # # The 300SD probably weighs in around 3,800lbs or so, right? The WJ # weighs around 3,950. My '83 J10 stepside is 4,100lbs and most # XJs are around 3,500-3,800lbs. Most Grand Wagoneers are in the 4,500 - 5,100 lb # range. # # So, power to weight for your setup is within reason... here are # the challenges that must be overcome: # # 1) the engine is a front sump, the axle and steering will get in the way... # - recommend getting a rear sump pan or massive amounts of lift. # # 2) you'll need to mate the Mercedes Diesel to the Jeep trans, need # an adapter... could be made... you'll need to adapt the flex plate # and possibly need a new torque converter... this is the direction # I'm considering first, however you face issues with the computer.(s). # remember the torque curve is different, you'll need to research and # work with a knowledgeable trans shop... computer issues may be resolved # with a manual override possible with the AW4... not sure about the # 42RE on the 4.0 or the 45RFE on the 4.7. # http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-transcode-0700/ # http://wjjeeps.com/speed_sensors.htm # # 3) if you use the benz engine and trans you'll either need a custom adapter # to mate the trans to the xfr case... or rig up a divorced case # setup of some kind... this could add length to the drivetrain... # this could have a ripple effect... you'll need driveshafts. # (my philosophy on doing these swaps it to try to use the stock # transfer case in place along with the stock driveshafts... and # move the engine forward... if you have the room.) # # 4) ok, so let's say you have the engine/trans/xfr case all in place... now # you'll need to deal with wiring... this will take the skill set of # both an electrical engineer and a computer engineer... there are # so many freakin' computers on a WJ that you'll be facing some # serious challenges to make it all work... I tried to set up the # heated seats on my WJ seats in my '91 Grand Wagoneer... I had # to buy TWO WJ computers and never did finish the project... started # it in the Blazer, never finished... # # 5) plumbing... coolant... you'll need to add an oil cooler... minor problems. # # 6) engine mounts... recommend using the benz mounts, have saddles made up to # use the stock WJ bases... you'll need to find the center line of # the engine and keep things lined up properly... depending on whether # you go with 2 or 3 you may need to move it forward or back. not a big # issue... any one with a welder and big hammer can make this part work. :) # # 7) firewall clearance... shouldn't be a problem # # 8) brake system - the benz uses a vacuum pump for the brake booster, shouldn't # be a problem. # # 9) exhaust system... if your WJ is a 4.0L the exhaust is on the driver's # side... on the benz it's on the passenger side... the 4.7L V8 comes out # passenger side: http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/under-wj-2.jpg # # # After having done about a half-dozen of these swaps with more planned, you really # need to 1) question your sanity 2) make sure you have lots of budget for odd ball # issues and parts 3) make sure you have lots of friends with lots of skills 4) # make sure you aren't planning on having this happen in weeks - figure 6 to 8 months # at a minimum, and that's just mechanical, you may need more for faking the comptuers # out... and you need those computers for just about everything on that body... # # I am giving thought to using either a 2.5 or 3.0 Mercedes Turbo Diesel in # my '83 J10 stepside, but will probably keep the T-5... which means I'll need # to find a flywheel and clutch setup for the benz... no, wait, just the flywheel # and hope they're the same size... # # Why do these ideas have to be so complicated? :) # # The 6.2L Diesel in my '91 Grand Wagoneer would have been better had I not # used the Novak Adapter mounts or xfr case setup... should have used stock # GM mounts, more soundproofing on the firewall when the engine was out and # the Advance Adapter setup on the trans instead of the xfr case... # http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ # # hope this helps... # # if you decide to bail... how much for that engine? and where are you? :) # # john # # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com # SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf # SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # # On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Travis Barnard wrote: # # # I've been recently looking into a replacement body for my beatup and # # rather thrashed 300SD(I think Adam Sandler had a song about a car like this). # # # # The engine is in great shape 230K +/- very strong. With the recent # # downturn I have found a 2001 Grand Cherokee Limited for under 5k and # # after doing a little research it appears that the Jeep is only about # # 300lbs heavier than my Benz. I know that the 5cyl turbo diesels are a # # bit anemic by most peoples standards but I'm really not speed freak # # anymore; a couple of years driving a VW Bus will fix that for anyone. # # So my question is this, does anyone have any experience transplanting # # motors in Jeep's and of course any concerns I should be researching # # before going further with such a crazy notion? # # # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:40:02 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: FW: FASTEST Electric car # http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing%22 wow. maybe I'm going about the superdawg project the wrong way... maybe electric is the way to go... only need to go about 30 miles or so on a charge... have that bed to hold batteries... ;) maybe I could do some kind of hybrid with a small Diesel... all kinds of ideas... :) there was a young guy that built and electric XJ in San Antonio... biggest expense, besides the batteries, is the motor... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, David Ashby wrote: # ----- Original Message ----- # # From: # # Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 7:07 PM # # Subject: FASTEST Electric car # # # # This is amazing and pretty impressive. # # # http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing%22 # # # # # # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:51:16 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz no, it'll be even faster than my '86 CJ-10A with the Nissan 3.3L Diesel... with the ballast I was able to reach the blistering speed of 40 mph up SR9/Clearview hill... and 50mph downhill... without the ballast I was able to reach the blistering speed of 50 mph up SR9/Clearview hill... and 60mph downhill... either case, made the '80 Ford Ranger with the Mazda Diesel seem like a drag racer... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Travis Barnard wrote: # # >Just remembered one more thing... axle ratios... # > # >your WJ will most likely have 3.73 gears, most mercedes Diesels are in the # >3.07 range... # > # >that means it'll be more spirited in town, but depending on the trans # >you use you may lose some top speed or economy on the road... # # Can it really be worse than driving 78' VW Bus? # # # On Jan 20, 2009, at 12:42 PM, john wrote: # # >Just remembered one more thing... axle ratios... # > # >your WJ will most likely have 3.73 gears, most mercedes Diesels are in the # >3.07 range... # > # >that means it'll be more spirited in town, but depending on the trans # >you use you may lose some top speed or economy on the road... # > # >the benz trans is 1:1 final, the 45RFE has an overdrive... and a complex # >computer. ;) # > # >john # > # > ----- # >------------------------------------------------------------------------ # >Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # >http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com # >SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf # >SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # >------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # >On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, john wrote: # > # > # you've come to the right place... # > # step into the Snohomish Monster Carport for a few minutes... :) # > # # > # I was looking at doing this to a '99 WJ not long ago... I've considered # > # putting a Benz Diesel into an XJ or even my J10. # > # # > # The 300SD probably weighs in around 3,800lbs or so, right? The WJ # > # weighs around 3,950. My '83 J10 stepside is 4,100lbs and most # > # XJs are around 3,500-3,800lbs. Most Grand Wagoneers are in the 4,500 - # > # 5,100 lb # > # range. # > # # > # So, power to weight for your setup is within reason... here are # > # the challenges that must be overcome: # > # # > # 1) the engine is a front sump, the axle and steering will get in the # > # way... # > # - recommend getting a rear sump pan or massive amounts of lift. # > # # > # 2) you'll need to mate the Mercedes Diesel to the Jeep trans, need # > # an adapter... could be made... you'll need to adapt the flex plate # > # and possibly need a new torque converter... this is the direction # > # I'm considering first, however you face issues with the computer.(s). # > # remember the torque curve is different, you'll need to research and # > # work with a knowledgeable trans shop... computer issues may be resolved # > # with a manual override possible with the AW4... not sure about the # > # 42RE on the 4.0 or the 45RFE on the 4.7. # > # http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-transcode-0700/ # > # http://wjjeeps.com/speed_sensors.htm # > # # > # 3) if you use the benz engine and trans you'll either need a custom # > # adapter # > # to mate the trans to the xfr case... or rig up a divorced case # > # setup of some kind... this could add length to the drivetrain... # > # this could have a ripple effect... you'll need driveshafts. # > # (my philosophy on doing these swaps it to try to use the stock # > # transfer case in place along with the stock driveshafts... and # > # move the engine forward... if you have the room.) # > # # > # 4) ok, so let's say you have the engine/trans/xfr case all in place... # > # now # > # you'll need to deal with wiring... this will take the skill set of # > # both an electrical engineer and a computer engineer... there are # > # so many freakin' computers on a WJ that you'll be facing some # > # serious challenges to make it all work... I tried to set up the # > # heated seats on my WJ seats in my '91 Grand Wagoneer... I had # > # to buy TWO WJ computers and never did finish the project... started # > # it in the Blazer, never finished... # > # # > # 5) plumbing... coolant... you'll need to add an oil cooler... minor # > # problems. # > # # > # 6) engine mounts... recommend using the benz mounts, have saddles made up # > # to # > # use the stock WJ bases... you'll need to find the center line of # > # the engine and keep things lined up properly... depending on whether # > # you go with 2 or 3 you may need to move it forward or back. not a big # > # issue... any one with a welder and big hammer can make this part work. # > # :) # > # # > # 7) firewall clearance... shouldn't be a problem # > # # > # 8) brake system - the benz uses a vacuum pump for the brake booster, # > # shouldn't # > # be a problem. # > # # > # 9) exhaust system... if your WJ is a 4.0L the exhaust is on the driver's # > # side... on the benz it's on the passenger side... the 4.7L V8 comes out # > # passenger side: http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/under-wj-2.jpg # > # # > # # > # After having done about a half-dozen of these swaps with more planned, # > # you really # > # need to 1) question your sanity 2) make sure you have lots of budget for # > # odd ball # > # issues and parts 3) make sure you have lots of friends with lots of # > # skills 4) # > # make sure you aren't planning on having this happen in weeks - figure 6 # > # to 8 months # > # at a minimum, and that's just mechanical, you may need more for faking # > # the comptuers # > # out... and you need those computers for just about everything on that # > # body... # > # I am giving thought to using either a 2.5 or 3.0 Mercedes Turbo # > # Diesel in # > # my '83 J10 stepside, but will probably keep the T-5... which means I'll # > # need # > # to find a flywheel and clutch setup for the benz... no, wait, just the # > # flywheel # > # and hope they're the same size... # > # # > # Why do these ideas have to be so complicated? :) # > # # > # The 6.2L Diesel in my '91 Grand Wagoneer would have been better had I not # > # used the Novak Adapter mounts or xfr case setup... should have used stock # > # GM mounts, more soundproofing on the firewall when the engine was out and # > # the Advance Adapter setup on the trans instead of the xfr case... # > # http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ # > # # > # hope this helps... # > # # > # if you decide to bail... how much for that engine? and where are you? # > # :) # > # # > # john # > # # > # # > # ----- # > # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com # > # SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf # > # SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # > # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # # > # # > # On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Travis Barnard wrote: # > # # > # # I've been recently looking into a replacement body for my beatup and # > # # rather thrashed 300SD(I think Adam Sandler had a song about a car like # > # # this). # > # # # > # # The engine is in great shape 230K +/- very strong. With the recent # > # # downturn I have found a 2001 Grand Cherokee Limited for under 5k and # > # # after doing a little research it appears that the Jeep is only about # > # # 300lbs heavier than my Benz. I know that the 5cyl turbo diesels are a # > # # bit anemic by most peoples standards but I'm really not speed freak # > # # anymore; a couple of years driving a VW Bus will fix that for anyone. # > # # So my question is this, does anyone have any experience transplanting # > # # motors in Jeep's and of course any concerns I should be researching # > # # before going further with such a crazy notion? # > # # # > # # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:44:23 EST From: Moontanman-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: 1000hp, 35mpg! Has anyone seen this type of conversion? _http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3003264_ (http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3003264) Michael Hissom Fanatic Sturgeon Nutcase (everyone needs a dream) **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:55:56 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 1000hp, 35mpg! this is interesting... popular science did some work on hydraulics in the mid-80s... http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3003264 the VW TDI hybrid setup is interesting... wonder if an electric setup could work with this as well... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Moontanman-at-aol.com wrote: # Has anyone seen this type of conversion? # # http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3003264 # # # Michael Hissom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:16:13 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] Re: FW: FASTEST Electric car that's where stuffing a VW 1.9L TDI in front of a generator would solve the problem... my J10 would be the perfect platform for this sort of setup... plenty of room for the batteries and the engine.... could put two electric motors on it... mounted to each axle... or use the xfr case and transmission... there's a lot I don't know about electrics at this point... but a Diesel hybrid is to my liking if I could afford all the parts... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, chuck goolsbee wrote: # On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:40:02 -0800 (PST), john wrote: # > # http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing%22 # > # > wow. maybe I'm going about the superdawg project the wrong way... # # Building a FAST electric car is easy. DC motors have mountains of torque # and ZERO RPM, so twisting force on tap like that is handy for drag racing. # # Where electricity fails, and where it has ALWAYS failed (and will continue # to fail) is range and recharge time. If you look at electric cars from 100 # years ago they had about the same range as recharge times as those of today. # # --chuck # # ________________________________________________ # "From Experience I can say it's better to have a # friend who has an E-type than to have an E-type." # # -- Dan O'Donnell, 21:13, 8/11/03 # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:15:19 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz Travis, Keep shopping for a WJ with a blown engine... almost picked up a limited for $1500. If people don't keep the oil changed properly in that 4.7L V8 it sludges up and has top end issues... I only run Amsoil synthetics so mine is doing great at 155K miles. Also, if you use the puss that the minute lubes and dealerships use and don't change it every couple thousand miles you'll also see top end failure... so there's a lot of WJs showing up needing engine work... and that engine work is EXPENSIVE. A wrecking yard will get nearly $2500 for a USED engine... a rebuild even done with local sources and labor can run 3-4k with labor! john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Travis Barnard wrote: # I've been recently looking into a replacement body for my beatup and # rather thrashed 300SD(I think Adam Sandler had a song about a car like this). # # The engine is in great shape 230K +/- very strong. With the recent # downturn I have found a 2001 Grand Cherokee Limited for under 5k and # after doing a little research it appears that the Jeep is only about # 300lbs heavier than my Benz. I know that the 5cyl turbo diesels are a # bit anemic by most peoples standards but I'm really not speed freak # anymore; a couple of years driving a VW Bus will fix that for anyone. # So my question is this, does anyone have any experience transplanting # motors in Jeep's and of course any concerns I should be researching # before going further with such a crazy notion? # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3246 **************************