From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Jan 23 19:58:10 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, January 24 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3249 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: RE: fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz RE: fsj: just wrong... RE: fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz RE: fsj: just wrong... fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #3248 RE: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #3248 fsj: OT: question fsj: javelin vs. panel fsj: RE: OT: question FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:10:02 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz A: At least you have a closed in carport. I'm lucky to have a roof over my head right now while working! There was another Mercedes oil pan cited for use that is rear sump. (Sorry. I don't know much about the MBZ chassis designators) That would allow for an easy install in an XJ (or MJ) or other vehicle requiring a rear sump pan. There is a group that does MBZ diesel swaps into various rigs and they make an adapter bell to hook to GM pattern AFAIK so 700R4 was probably used. (I could rig up an adapter to Jeep bell if I knew how to do CAD) An AW4 would be an excellent auto for the diesel. (Toyota diesels use them) They are low stall and high efficiency (which is why '93 ZJs with 4.0L AW4 got -at- 5mpg more than later models with the 42RE) 42RE may be convertible to 42RH with an '88 to '93 Dodge valve body (haven't done it, but I was going to before discovering the 42RH wouldn't stand up to the stroker motor I'm building or even the stock 304 from my J4000) An adapter to hook the MBZ trans to a NP/NV tcase may already be available. you've come to the right place... step into the Snohomish Monster Carport for a few minutes... :) I was looking at doing this to a '99 WJ not long ago... I've considered putting a Benz Diesel into an XJ or even my J10. The 300SD probably weighs in around 3,800lbs or so, right? The WJ weighs around 3,950. My '83 J10 stepside is 4,100lbs and most XJs are around 3,500-3,800lbs. Most Grand Wagoneers are in the 4,500 - 5,100 lb range. So, power to weight for your setup is within reason... here are the challenges that must be overcome: 1) the engine is a front sump, the axle and steering will get in the way... - recommend getting a rear sump pan or massive amounts of lift. 2) you'll need to mate the Mercedes Diesel to the Jeep trans, need an adapter... could be made... you'll need to adapt the flex plate and possibly need a new torque converter... this is the direction I'm considering first, however you face issues with the computer.(s). remember the torque curve is different, you'll need to research and work with a knowledgeable trans shop... computer issues may be resolved with a manual override possible with the AW4... not sure about the 42RE on the 4.0 or the 45RFE on the 4.7. http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-transcode-0700/ http://wjjeeps.com/speed_sensors.htm 3) if you use the benz engine and trans you'll either need a custom adapter to mate the trans to the xfr case... or rig up a divorced case setup of some kind... this could add length to the drivetrain... this could have a ripple effect... you'll need driveshafts. (my philosophy on doing these swaps it to try to use the stock transfer case in place along with the stock driveshafts... and move the engine forward... if you have the room.) 4) ok, so let's say you have the engine/trans/xfr case all in place... now you'll need to deal with wiring... this will take the skill set of both an electrical engineer and a computer engineer... there are so many freakin' computers on a WJ that you'll be facing some serious challenges to make it all work... I tried to set up the heated seats on my WJ seats in my '91 Grand Wagoneer... I had to buy TWO WJ computers and never did finish the project... started it in the Blazer, never finished... 5) plumbing... coolant... you'll need to add an oil cooler... minor problems. 6) engine mounts... recommend using the benz mounts, have saddles made up to use the stock WJ bases... you'll need to find the center line of the engine and keep things lined up properly... depending on whether you go with 2 or 3 you may need to move it forward or back. not a big issue... any one with a welder and big hammer can make this part work. :) 7) firewall clearance... shouldn't be a problem 8) brake system - the benz uses a vacuum pump for the brake booster, shouldn't be a problem. 9) exhaust system... if your WJ is a 4.0L the exhaust is on the driver's side... on the benz it's on the passenger side... the 4.7L V8 comes out passenger side: http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/under-wj-2.jpg After having done about a half-dozen of these swaps with more planned, you really need to 1) question your sanity 2) make sure you have lots of budget for odd ball issues and parts 3) make sure you have lots of friends with lots of skills 4) make sure you aren't planning on having this happen in weeks - figure 6 to 8 months at a minimum, and that's just mechanical, you may need more for faking the comptuers out... and you need those computers for just about everything on that body... I am giving thought to using either a 2.5 or 3.0 Mercedes Turbo Diesel in my '83 J10 stepside, but will probably keep the T-5... which means I'll need to find a flywheel and clutch setup for the benz... no, wait, just the flywheel and hope they're the same size... Why do these ideas have to be so complicated? :) The 6.2L Diesel in my '91 Grand Wagoneer would have been better had I not used the Novak Adapter mounts or xfr case setup... should have used stock GM mounts, more soundproofing on the firewall when the engine was out and the Advance Adapter setup on the trans instead of the xfr case... http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ hope this helps... if you decide to bail... how much for that engine? and where are you? :) john _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live^Y: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_01200 9 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:23:20 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: just wrong... Apparently it's got hydros (someone on the POR list was ragging on it) Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 - ---------------------------------------- > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:14:25 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: > Subject: fsj: just wrong... > > not sure how long this link will be around, but I think I saw > this thing driving through everett last week... it's just wrong... > > http://images.craigslist.org/3n13m53p412314c1g991meb392ddd44901051.jpg > > 86 CAPRICE WITH A 91 EURO FRONT > ITS SITTNG ON 26"S WITH A 4" LIFT. > DUAL EXHAUST WITH 4" TIPS. > > > it is amazingly weird looking... not sure how you can turn with it... > almost want to go and find it to see how it works... :) > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com > SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf > SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live^Y: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_01200 9 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:34:19 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz A Cherokee (XJ) with tan leather interior and factory sunroof would be my first choice to put a Mercedes Turbo Diesel into... would prefer to use the AW4, they are the best automatic I've ever had. But if there is an adapter to mate a mercedes AT to the jeep xfr case that would work too. if you find the line for that adapter, please share. :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Jim Blair wrote: # # A: At least you have a closed in carport. I'm lucky to have a roof over my head right now while working! There was another Mercedes oil pan cited for use that is rear sump. (Sorry. I don't know much about the MBZ chassis designators) # That would allow for an easy install in an XJ (or MJ) or other vehicle requiring a rear sump pan. There is a group that does MBZ diesel swaps into various rigs and they make an adapter bell to hook to GM pattern AFAIK so 700R4 was probably used. (I could rig up an adapter to Jeep bell if I knew how to do CAD) An AW4 would be an excellent auto for the diesel. (Toyota diesels use them) They are low stall and high efficiency (which is why '93 ZJs with 4.0L AW4 got -at- 5mpg more than later models with the 42RE) 42RE may be convertible to 42RH with an '88 to '93 Dodge valve body (haven't done it, but I was going to before discovering the 42RH wouldn't stand up to the stroker motor I'm building or even the stock 304 from my J4000) # An adapter to hook the MBZ trans to a NP/NV tcase may already be available. # # # # # # you've come to the right place... # step into the Snohomish Monster Carport for a few minutes... :) # # I was looking at doing this to a '99 WJ not long ago... I've considered # putting a Benz Diesel into an XJ or even my J10. # # The 300SD probably weighs in around 3,800lbs or so, right? The WJ # weighs around 3,950. My '83 J10 stepside is 4,100lbs and most # XJs are around 3,500-3,800lbs. Most Grand Wagoneers are in the 4,500 - 5,100 lb # range. # # So, power to weight for your setup is within reason... here are # the challenges that must be overcome: # # 1) the engine is a front sump, the axle and steering will get in the way... # - recommend getting a rear sump pan or massive amounts of lift. # # 2) you'll need to mate the Mercedes Diesel to the Jeep trans, need # an adapter... could be made... you'll need to adapt the flex plate # and possibly need a new torque converter... this is the direction # I'm considering first, however you face issues with the computer.(s). # remember the torque curve is different, you'll need to research and # work with a knowledgeable trans shop... computer issues may be resolved # with a manual override possible with the AW4... not sure about the # 42RE on the 4.0 or the 45RFE on the 4.7. # http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-transcode-0700/ # http://wjjeeps.com/speed_sensors.htm # # 3) if you use the benz engine and trans you'll either need a custom adapter # to mate the trans to the xfr case... or rig up a divorced case # setup of some kind... this could add length to the drivetrain... # this could have a ripple effect... you'll need driveshafts. # (my philosophy on doing these swaps it to try to use the stock # transfer case in place along with the stock driveshafts... and # move the engine forward... if you have the room.) # # 4) ok, so let's say you have the engine/trans/xfr case all in place... now # you'll need to deal with wiring... this will take the skill set of # both an electrical engineer and a computer engineer... there are # so many freakin' computers on a WJ that you'll be facing some # serious challenges to make it all work... I tried to set up the # heated seats on my WJ seats in my '91 Grand Wagoneer... I had # to buy TWO WJ computers and never did finish the project... started # it in the Blazer, never finished... # # 5) plumbing... coolant... you'll need to add an oil cooler... minor problems. # # 6) engine mounts... recommend using the benz mounts, have saddles made up to # use the stock WJ bases... you'll need to find the center line of # the engine and keep things lined up properly... depending on whether # you go with 2 or 3 you may need to move it forward or back. not a big # issue... any one with a welder and big hammer can make this part work. :) # # 7) firewall clearance... shouldn't be a problem # # 8) brake system - the benz uses a vacuum pump for the brake booster, shouldn't # be a problem. # # 9) exhaust system... if your WJ is a 4.0L the exhaust is on the driver's # side... on the benz it's on the passenger side... the 4.7L V8 comes out # passenger side: http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/under-wj-2.jpg # # # After having done about a half-dozen of these swaps with more planned, you really # need to 1) question your sanity 2) make sure you have lots of budget for odd ball # issues and parts 3) make sure you have lots of friends with lots of skills 4) # make sure you aren't planning on having this happen in weeks - figure 6 to 8 months # at a minimum, and that's just mechanical, you may need more for faking the comptuers # out... and you need those computers for just about everything on that body... # # I am giving thought to using either a 2.5 or 3.0 Mercedes Turbo Diesel in # my '83 J10 stepside, but will probably keep the T-5... which means I'll need # to find a flywheel and clutch setup for the benz... no, wait, just the flywheel # and hope they're the same size... # # Why do these ideas have to be so complicated? :) # # The 6.2L Diesel in my '91 Grand Wagoneer would have been better had I not # used the Novak Adapter mounts or xfr case setup... should have used stock # GM mounts, more soundproofing on the firewall when the engine was out and # the Advance Adapter setup on the trans instead of the xfr case... # http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ # # hope this helps... # # if you decide to bail... how much for that engine? and where are you? :) # # john # # _________________________________________________________________ # Windows Live(TM): E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. # http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009 # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:35:49 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: RE: fsj: just wrong... it's got something... just hope it's not contagious... I had no inclination to even photograph it... and y'all know how I have no hesitation to photography anything, including massive disasters... ;) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Jim Blair wrote: # Apparently it's got hydros (someone on the POR list was ragging on it) # # # Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 # # # # # # # ---------------------------------------- # > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:14:25 -0800 # > From: john-at-wagoneers.com # > To: # > Subject: fsj: just wrong... # > # > not sure how long this link will be around, but I think I saw # > this thing driving through everett last week... it's just wrong... # > # > http://images.craigslist.org/3n13m53p412314c1g991meb392ddd44901051.jpg # > # > 86 CAPRICE WITH A 91 EURO FRONT # > ITS SITTNG ON 26"S WITH A 4" LIFT. # > DUAL EXHAUST WITH 4" TIPS. # > # > # > it is amazingly weird looking... not sure how you can turn with it... # > almost want to go and find it to see how it works... :) # > # > ----- # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com # > SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf # > SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # _________________________________________________________________ # Windows Live^Y: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. # http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_01200 # 9 # ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:01:04 -0700 From: Troy Phagan Subject: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #3248 I used to own a body shop... I hated dealing with Dodge Raiders and old Monteros. VERY Difficult to find parts in the US... Even something like a replacement bumper, or fog light is virtually non-existent. Regards, Troy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:00:00 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #3248 Not if you have a junkyard like the one in Seattle. At one time they had 65 of those beasties. Most w/o usable motors. (funny part is the majority I looked at that quit running had Fram filters on them) Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:01:04 -0700 > From: tsp-at-crptruck.com > To: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #3248 > > I used to own a body shop... I hated dealing with Dodge Raiders and old > Monteros. VERY Difficult to find parts in the US... Even something like > a replacement bumper, or fog light is virtually non-existent. > > Regards, > Troy _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live^Y Hotmail.:^Emore than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_ 012009 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:08:52 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: OT: question quick question, not about my sanity, that's already gone... just thinking about a Suzuki Samurai... I have driven them before... for a daily driver I think it would be fine... not fast, but long term I would probably stuff a TDI in it. found two on CL that look nice and are affordable... figure I'd let y'all talk me out of it. :) 1986 SUZUKI SAMARAI*********WELL MAINTAINED BY DAD - $2800 (TACOMA) 4 CYLINDER, 5 SPEED, 135,000 ORIGINAL MILES, REMOVABLE HARDTOP. NEW: ALL 5 TIRES, ALTERNATOR, STARTER, DISTRIBUTOR, WATER PUMP, FUEL PUMP, CLUTCH, TIMING BELT, BATTERY AND WARN 2500 WINCH. Needs TLC http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/cto/996947166.html 87' Suzuki Samurai - $3500 (Elma) This is an all stock unabused great looking samurai for sale. This little rig is in super great shape and very clean. It has new tires, K&N air intake, tow bar, cd player, new door panels, spray in liner inside, back seat and stainless steel rocker panels. The soft top is in great shape with no rips or holes. Runs and drives great, a perfect daily driver. http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/cto/1000013386.html I think the removeable hardtop unit might be nicer... epa claims: Fuel Type Regular MPG (city) 23 MPG (highway) 27 MPG (combined) 25 TDI conversion can run as little as $800 on up to a few grand... CHECK OUT the turning radius!!! I could turn this thing around in my carport if this info is correct!!! 16.7 feet! wow. I love it already... Steering Steering gear box Manual ball nut Turning radius 16.7 ft. (5.1 m) Exterior Dimensions Wheelbase 79.9 in. (2030 mm) Tread width Front 51.2 in. (1300 mm) Rear 51.6 in. (1310 mm) Overall Length 135.0 in. (3430 mm) Overall Width (Body) 60.2 in. (1530 mm) Overall Height 65.6 in. (1665 mm) Minimum ground clearance 8.1 in. (205 mm) Curb Weight Manual 2094 lb. (942 kg) Gross Vehicle Wt. Rating 2923 lb. (1315 kg) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:10:08 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: javelin vs. panel the javelin won... mark wants to get some XJ axles to make it a 4x4... and the panel is for sale: http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/cto/1005054892.html going to use the proceeds to buy a milling machine... I'm fine with this idea, one less vehicle in the driveway... :) taking the '80 J10 down to Centralia, have offers on the cj-10a and the blazer... low, but offers... we'll see... fleet reduction in force, proceeding with limited success... :) so, kevin, when are you coming up for the panel? want to bring one of those Diesel projects you'd like to get rid of? ;) I can hide it in the back of the carport... ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 19:50:14 -0800 From: "Paul & Megan" Subject: fsj: RE: OT: question John, I know everyone wants you to get another car, 'cuz the popcorn was getting stale, but NOT the Samurai. Here is the car for you... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAqPMJFaEdY pk - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 2:09 PM To: undisclosed-recipients: Subject: fsj: OT: question quick question, not about my sanity, that's already gone... just thinking about a Suzuki Samurai... I have driven them before... for a daily driver I think it would be fine... not fast, but long term I would probably stuff a TDI in it. found two on CL that look nice and are affordable... figure I'd let y'all talk me out of it. :) 1986 SUZUKI SAMARAI*********WELL MAINTAINED BY DAD - $2800 (TACOMA) 4 CYLINDER, 5 SPEED, 135,000 ORIGINAL MILES, REMOVABLE HARDTOP. NEW: ALL 5 TIRES, ALTERNATOR, STARTER, DISTRIBUTOR, WATER PUMP, FUEL PUMP, CLUTCH, TIMING BELT, BATTERY AND WARN 2500 WINCH. Needs TLC http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/cto/996947166.html 87' Suzuki Samurai - $3500 (Elma) This is an all stock unabused great looking samurai for sale. This little rig is in super great shape and very clean. It has new tires, K&N air intake, tow bar, cd player, new door panels, spray in liner inside, back seat and stainless steel rocker panels. The soft top is in great shape with no rips or holes. Runs and drives great, a perfect daily driver. http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/cto/1000013386.html I think the removeable hardtop unit might be nicer... epa claims: Fuel Type Regular MPG (city) 23 MPG (highway) 27 MPG (combined) 25 TDI conversion can run as little as $800 on up to a few grand... CHECK OUT the turning radius!!! I could turn this thing around in my carport if this info is correct!!! 16.7 feet! wow. I love it already... Steering Steering gear box Manual ball nut Turning radius 16.7 ft. (5.1 m) Exterior Dimensions Wheelbase 79.9 in. (2030 mm) Tread width Front 51.2 in. (1300 mm) Rear 51.6 in. (1310 mm) Overall Length 135.0 in. (3430 mm) Overall Width (Body) 60.2 in. (1530 mm) Overall Height 65.6 in. (1665 mm) Minimum ground clearance 8.1 in. (205 mm) Curb Weight Manual 2094 lb. (942 kg) Gross Vehicle Wt. Rating 2923 lb. (1315 kg) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3249 **************************