From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Jun 29 15:40:44 2009 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Monday, June 29 2009 Volume 01 : Number 3370 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: GW wanted fsj: A thought on why Americans don't have a good diesel option fsj: Re: A thought on why Americans don't have a good diesel option fsj: 68 Jtruck for sale in Vermont (Google Alert - Jeep Gladiator) Not mine! fsj: A thought on why Americans don't have a good diesel option (fwd) fsj: HB JB RE: fsj: HB JB Re: fsj: 68 Jtruck for sale in Vermont (Google Alert - Jeep Gladiator) Not mine! RE: fsj: 68 Jtruck for sale in Vermont (Google Alert - Jeep Gladiator) Not mine! fsj: the question Re: fsj: the question fsj: RE: the question FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 22:21:28 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: fsj: GW wanted anyone in the general Louisville area (within 100 miles) have a good-shape GW for sale? i have a guy looking for one. thanks! Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 04:32:55 -0400 From: wallacem7-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: A thought on why Americans don't have a good diesel option I thought I should comment on why Americans don't have a lot of good Diesel options. The short answer is because Ralph Nader is a very narcissistic man. The long answer goes like this. And I will preface this with my background...I worked in Detroit in the automobile industry for about eight years. I was an engineer who developed airbags, instrument panels (dashboards to the outside world), and for a brief period seat belts. I dealt daily with government regulations dealing with safety systems. I also aquired a level of familiarity with european safety regulations dealing with export stuff. I could give you all a lot of history, but the punch line is that the core of the government regulations have not been re-written. They have been added to and amended, but to this day are still really written around 1960's technology. I did deal with complying technology that hadn't been invented in 1967 to a spec written about a technology that had gone out of date by the mid 1970's (but you could still find it on our Wagoneers and J-10's and SJ Cherokees for a few more years...I am talking about the dash pad with steel as the substrate under the foam and it's potential flamability) There was a lot of disagreement on how to interpret that spec and a lot of money was unnecessarily spent retesting a known commodity. European regulations were by in large written a good ten years after the American specs and are by in large just more modern in their philosophy. (Europe only does belted crash testing). I know that European emissions specs also came much later from restoring European cars. (the Euro-spec versions of the same car were often more powerful through the 70's and into the 80's) By the time the Europeans got around to writing emissions specs the Arab oil embargo of the 1970's had already occurred and they understood the need for real efficiency. Another issue is that Detroit has largely outsourced all engineering and the Fords the GMs and the Chryslers of the world are largely unaware of what their supply base can actually do or what the real cost and value of modern technology really is. The Detroit three spends too much effort beating up the supply base on cost and almost no effort on innovation and because everybody uses the same suppliers everybody gets the same technology. Many of the internal specs are dated as well and it's hard to explain to somone that isn't really sure what you are talking about in the first place that you? can't test modern parts?to spec for a technology that disappeared when Reagan was in office and was really last Relevant when Nixon was in office. Detroit needs a leader who decides that it's time to build a great car. Washington needs to re-write the regs to allow detroit to build that car. and the Unions need to understand that half of nothing is nothing. Mark Wallace 81 Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 06:29:54 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: fsj: Re: A thought on why Americans don't have a good diesel option > the Unions need to understand that half of nothing is nothing. AMEN!!! Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 4:32 AM Subject: fsj: A thought on why Americans don't have a good diesel option > I thought I should comment on why Americans don't have a lot of good Diesel options. The short answer is because Ralph Nader is a very narcissistic man. > > The long answer goes like this. And I will preface this with my background...I worked in Detroit in the automobile industry for about eight years. I was an engineer who developed airbags, instrument panels (dashboards to the outside world), and for a brief period seat belts. I dealt daily with government regulations dealing with safety systems. I also aquired a level of familiarity with european safety regulations dealing with export stuff. I could give you all a lot of history, but the punch line is that the core of the government regulations have not been re-written. They have been added to and amended, but to this day are still really written around 1960's technology. I did deal with complying technology that hadn't been invented in 1967 to a spec written about a technology that had gone out of date by the mid 1970's (but you could still find it on our Wagoneers and J-10's and SJ Cherokees for a few more years...I am talking about the dash pad with steel as the substrate under the foam and it's potential flamability) There was a lot of disagreement on how to interpret that spec and a lot of money was unnecessarily spent retesting a known commodity. European regulations were by in large written a good ten years after the American specs and are by in large just more modern in their philosophy. (Europe only does belted crash testing). I know that European emissions specs also came much later from restoring European cars. (the Euro-spec versions of the same car were often more powerful through the 70's and into the 80's) By the time the Europeans got around to writing emissions specs the Arab oil embargo of the 1970's had already occurred and they understood the need for real efficiency. > > Another issue is that Detroit has largely outsourced all engineering and the Fords the GMs and the Chryslers of the world are largely unaware of what their supply base can actually do or what the real cost and value of modern technology really is. The Detroit three spends too much effort beating up the supply base on cost and almost no effort on innovation and because everybody uses the same suppliers everybody gets the same technology. Many of the internal specs are dated as well and it's hard to explain to somone that isn't really sure what you are talking about in the first place that you? can't test modern parts?to spec for a technology that disappeared when Reagan was in office and was really last Relevant when Nixon was in office. > > Detroit needs a leader who decides that it's time to build a great car. Washington needs to re-write the regs to allow detroit to build that car. and the Unions need to understand that half of nothing is nothing. > > Mark Wallace > 81 Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:09:34 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: fsj: 68 Jtruck for sale in Vermont (Google Alert - Jeep Gladiator) Not mine! http://burlington.craigslist.org/cto/1244379876.html _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live^Y SkyDrive^Y: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:14:25 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: A thought on why Americans don't have a good diesel option (fwd) got this from a friend on the FSJ list... long story, but he was in college when I started the FSJ list... he decided to get his engineering degree and move to Detroit... needless to say, he's no longer in detroit an no longer working on cars... reading through this I see the same thing happening in aerospace and other industries... outsourcing, government regulations and unions are killing us. We must use outsourcing wisely, we must update our government regulations or reduce them and we need to move away from the idea that unions add benefit, as they are as bad or worse than present day management, and of course managers and executives need to rethink what they're real value is to the company and perhaps restructure their salary and bonuses a bit... not advocating a Ben-and-Jerry seven times limit or anything like that, but why should a guy sitting in a chair make hundreds of millions of dollars while others are doing the real work? Government intervention in business is simply not a good idea... businesses need to fail on their own. The Government should protect businesses from foreign unfair trade practices like dumping. (where a foreign competitor sells product below THEIR cost in order to win market share to drive competitors out of the market... e.g., what the Japanese were doing with DRAMS in the mid-80s...) It's a complex mess with no simple answers, we've taken years to get where we are at... we should look at the history of British Leyland to get an idea of how government and unions impacted them... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: I thought I should comment on why Americans don't have a lot of good Diesel options. The short answer is because Ralph Nader is a very narcissistic man. The long answer goes like this. And I will preface this with my background...I worked in Detroit in the automobile industry for about eight years. I was an engineer who developed airbags, instrument panels (dashboards to the outside world), and for a brief period seat belts. I dealt daily with government regulations dealing with safety systems. I also aquired a level of familiarity with european safety regulations dealing with export stuff. I could give you all a lot of history, but the punch line is that the core of the government regulations have not been re-written. They have been added to and amended, but to this day are still really written around 1960's technology. I did deal with complying technology that hadn't been invented in 1967 to a spec written about a technology that had gone out of date by the mid 1970's (but you could still find it on our Wagoneers and J-10's and SJ Cherokees for a few more years...I am talking about the dash pad with steel as the substrate under the foam and it's potential flamability) There was a lot of disagreement on how to interpret that spec and a lot of money was unnecessarily spent retesting a known commodity. European regulations were by in large written a good ten years after the American specs and are by in large just more modern in their philosophy. (Europe only does belted crash testing). I know that European emissions specs also came much later from restoring European cars. (the Euro-spec versions of the same car were often more powerful through the 70's and into the 80's) By the time the Europeans got around to writing emissions specs the Arab oil embargo of the 1970's had already occurred and they understood the need for real efficiency. Another issue is that Detroit has largely outsourced all engineering and the Fords the GMs and the Chryslers of the world are largely unaware of what their supply base can actually do or what the real cost and value of modern technology really is. The Detroit three spends too much effort beating up the supply base on cost and almost no effort on innovation and because everybody uses the same suppliers everybody gets the same technology. Many of the internal specs are dated as well and it's hard to explain to somone that isn't really sure what you are talking about in the first place that you? can't test modern parts?to spec for a technology that disappeared when Reagan was in office and was really last Relevant when Nixon was in office. Detroit needs a leader who decides that it's time to build a great car. Washington needs to re-write the regs to allow detroit to build that car. and the Unions need to understand that half of nothing is nothing. Mark Wallace 81 Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:18:02 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: HB JB day late, but happy birthday jim... was going to post this yesterday but went for a drive in my Diesel Jeep instead... ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:22:07 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: HB JB X2 Michel > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:18:02 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com; xj-at-digest.net; fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: HB JB > > day late, but happy birthday jim... was going to post this yesterday but > went for a drive in my Diesel Jeep instead... ;) > > john > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live^Y: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:28:52 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 68 Jtruck for sale in Vermont (Google Alert - Jeep Gladiator) Not mine! looks nice... too bad it's on the wrong coast... Jim... why are you shopping in Vermont??? ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Jim Blair wrote: # http://burlington.craigslist.org/cto/1244379876.html # _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:36:11 -0700 From: "Tesar Landon-R16884" Subject: RE: fsj: 68 Jtruck for sale in Vermont (Google Alert - Jeep Gladiator) Not mine! I'll be up that direction around mid July if someone wants me to take a look. Would be lots of fun down here. - - Landon - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 4:29 PM To: Jim Blair Cc: full size jeep list Subject: Re: fsj: 68 Jtruck for sale in Vermont (Google Alert - Jeep Gladiator) Not mine! looks nice... too bad it's on the wrong coast... Jim... why are you shopping in Vermont??? ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Jim Blair wrote: # http://burlington.craigslist.org/cto/1244379876.html # _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:42:04 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: fsj: the question trying to decide which Jeep I should put my SD33T into (first)... the '86 cj-10a? or the '83 J10 stepside? better question is, which should I make my daily driver... I'm still leaning heavily toward the J10 despite it's inoperative condition... it's like a mythical beast... I know it exists... it's just in many pieces... many have given up on it... thinking it'll never see the light of day again, but I'm still optimistic... I mean how hard can it be to put it back together again? it only took a week and a half for it to be dismantled... :) If I go with the SD33T in the tug will use the AT. If I put it in the J10 I'm thinking it'd be better using the T19(or T18)/np208 setup... I'm thinking the least painful way of using the SD33T is to put it directly into my J10 and not swap it into the CJ-10... have everything needed to make it work in the J10 and not tear up the cj-10a... still trying to track down the flex plate and torque converter for the 2nd 727 from the guy in Idaho... but I'm wondering how much power is lost to that automatic... I'm not a big fan of manual transmissions considering traffic around here, but the power difference might be worth it... thoughts? cj-10a or J10? manual or at? :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:37:47 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: Re: fsj: the question the '83 J10 stepside came with the 4.2/T-5/np208 and 3.31's. current plan that's been in work since Dec 2008 is to swap in another 4.2 out of an 80, along with the 3.54 axles... not sure where it's at right now... was promised that it would be done this summer... the SD33T with the scout's T19 (if it can be made to mate to the NP208) or the Jeep T18 (non-synch 1st gear), or maybe the T-5, it all depends on the pieces... will work quite well with the 235s and the 3.54 gears... very similiar to what they used in the scouts... the J10 was manual, and I think the power/economy will be better that way, despite our traffic. ;) the scout's weighed 4400lbs, superdawg weighs 4100lbs, but the 4.2 is 300lbs less than the SD33T, so it's a wash... Orginally bought superdawg in november 1999... in spring of 2001 on a trip back from portland, oregon while towing a trailer full of FSJ parts #2 oil ring failed and fouled the plug... limped it home and around for awhile until I bought a '96 xj for the 4.0. chased down all the parts needed to make it an AT setup... my friend curtis offered to do the swap and took superdawg down to his place in lacey, washington... promised to have it done by labor day... 2001... in less than two weeks he had it off the frame and the wiring harness extracted (in prep for the 4.0 wiring)... then he got an eviction notice... that was july 2001... he found a place in october 2001... then there was the financing... I was hoping I'd have superdawg for Ouray in 2002... no luck... the project has been inflated and deflated and other stuff has come and gone in the meantime... I bought another J10 for engine and parts November 2008... delivered in Dec or Jan, waiting for the axles and engine to get swapped in... thinking that since he hasn't had time to swap the 4.2 in, might be just as easy to drop the SD33T in... just need to hear from him and run it down to centralia... tried to call a few times... curtis? :) shall I just bring the SD33T and T19 down and you can install it in superdawg's frame... save you one engine extraction... ;) I'll drag whatever is left over back up here... would like to hold on to the 4.2 just incase the SD33T doesn't work out or explodes... the motor mounts on the SD33T appear to sit forward of the 4.2, so we could just add another set of towers forward and leave the 4.2 mounts in place, should clear on the passenger side without trouble, the driver's side will require exhaust contortions, possibly... not a big deal, cut just remove the tower... hey, heading down to Portland on Thursday, could load the trailer and drop it off on the way down, pickup remains on Friday... ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Greg Loxtercamp wrote: # Keep the CJ-10a the way it is and put the SD33T into the J10. What would you do with the SD33 from the CJ-10A?...you wouldn't put it into the J10. Fix the issues with the CJ-10A and sell it, then get the J10 the way you want it. That is your ultimate platform and has been for 10 years. Make it happen!!! ...unless you know of a better engine to put into the J10, but it seems like the SD33T would push it around OK (after all, they did put it in the Scout and that was of a similar weight, right?) # # What was in the J10? Automatic? If so, I'd vote for the automatic. # # Greg # # # # # ________________________________ # From: diesel john # Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 4:42:04 PM # Subject: fsj: the question # # trying to decide which Jeep I should put my SD33T into (first)... # # the '86 cj-10a? # or # the '83 J10 stepside? # # better question is, which should I make my daily driver... I'm still # leaning heavily toward the J10 despite it's inoperative condition... it's like # a mythical beast... I know it exists... it's just in many pieces... many # have given up on it... thinking it'll never see the light of day again, but # I'm still optimistic... I mean how hard can it be to put it back together again? # it only took a week and a half for it to be dismantled... :) # # # If I go with the SD33T in the tug will use the AT. If I put it in the # J10 I'm thinking it'd be better using the T19(or T18)/np208 setup... # # I'm thinking the least painful way of using the SD33T is to put it directly # into my J10 and not swap it into the CJ-10... have everything needed to # make it work in the J10 and not tear up the cj-10a... # # still trying to track down the flex plate and torque converter for the 2nd # 727 from the guy in Idaho... but I'm wondering how much power is lost to that # automatic... I'm not a big fan of manual transmissions considering traffic # around here, but the power difference might be worth it... # # thoughts? # # cj-10a or J10? # manual or at? # # :) # # # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # # # # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:40:25 -0700 (PDT) From: diesel john Subject: fsj: RE: the question thanx for the confirmation of sanity... I agree... the ride will be better and my friend has done a bunch to clean up the J10 body... and frame... much more practical overall... curtis has slowly been perfecting the J10... he's quite a perfectionist... if I hadn't seen his work and realized his skills there is no way he would have been able to leave my house with my truck... it's just that there has been a number of distractions over the years... hoping to get it back together very soon... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, FParker wrote: # # I would go the J10 route. The CJ-10a is already together and running. This # is the excuse to get the J10 back home and together - then you will have the # two side by side and probably go long term with the J10. # # Just my 2 cents... # Fred # # -----Original Message----- # From: diesel john [mailto:dieseljohn-at-comcast.net] # Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 5:42 PM # To: undisclosed-recipients: # Subject: the question # # # trying to decide which Jeep I should put my SD33T into (first)... # # the '86 cj-10a? # or # the '83 J10 stepside? # # better question is, which should I make my daily driver... I'm still # leaning heavily toward the J10 despite it's inoperative condition... it's # like # a mythical beast... I know it exists... it's just in many pieces... many # have given up on it... thinking it'll never see the light of day again, but # I'm still optimistic... I mean how hard can it be to put it back together # again? # it only took a week and a half for it to be dismantled... :) # # # If I go with the SD33T in the tug will use the AT. If I put it in the # J10 I'm thinking it'd be better using the T19(or T18)/np208 setup... # # I'm thinking the least painful way of using the SD33T is to put it directly # into my J10 and not swap it into the CJ-10... have everything needed to # make it work in the J10 and not tear up the cj-10a... # # still trying to track down the flex plate and torque converter for the 2nd # 727 from the guy in Idaho... but I'm wondering how much power is lost to # that # automatic... I'm not a big fan of manual transmissions considering traffic # around here, but the power difference might be worth it... # # thoughts? # # cj-10a or J10? # manual or at? # # :) # # # # ----- # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://creationwiki.org # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3370 **************************