From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Apr 21 00:45:26 2010 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, April 21 2010 Volume 01 : Number 3566 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: 2011 GChero RE: fsj: 2011 GChero Re: fsj: tempting... Re: fsj: 2011 GChero RE: fsj: 2011 GChero fsj: Chrysler, XJ's, and the French Connection, and Hemmings Motor News Re: fsj: Chrysler, XJ's, and the French Connection, and Hemmings Motor News Re: fsj: Chrysler, XJ's, and the French Connection, and Hemmings Motor News RE: fsj: 2011 GChero and citroen and the french FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:23:06 -0700 From: Kevin Subject: Re: fsj: 2011 GChero I can't find where I put those notes, but the XJ was the first joint design between Renault and AMC. While most of the sketches and clay models came from Teague's engineers, Francois Castaing (who was placed with AMC by Renault) was the brainchild behind dropping all the weight and using much smaller engines than the previous cherokees had. The front suspension was designed by a guy AMC stole from Ford, IIRC. The real involvement, though, was that Renault had the computer power to do finite element analysis, send the engineers back, then redo analysis and whatnot. This is where the real success of the XJ, departed from true body on frame construction, really pulled ahead from everything else in terms of rigidity. Ironically, Seymour Cray, who founded Cray Research, was killed in 1996 when his XJ was hit in the doors by an out of control camaro. The computers that the XJ was designed on were Crays. On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 01:53:08PM -0700, john wrote: > the french did not do the XJ... that should be obvious. ;) > > it wasn't until '85 that we saw some involvement with the drivetrain with the Renault 2.1L TD. > > there was a partnership and a few parts were french, the rear wiper, later the > Renix computer for the 4.0, but for the most part that was solid AMC engineering... > > you're probably right on the ZJ... I blamed Chrysler, but I still can, they implemented it. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:24:25 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero The AMC-list noted that in '79 the partnership turned to Renault owning a controlling interest (which was why AM General was spun off, so as not to lose US gov't contracts) and it became known as Franco American motors (as in "uh-oh! Spaghetti-Os!") Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:53:08 -0700 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: kevin-at-mordred.punk.net > CC: timesawastin-at-bigpond.com; fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: 2011 GChero > > the french did not do the XJ... that should be obvious. ;) > > it wasn't until '85 that we saw some involvement with the drivetrain with the Renault 2.1L TD. > > there was a partnership and a few parts were french, the rear wiper, later the > Renix computer for the 4.0, but for the most part that was solid AMC engineering... > > you're probably right on the ZJ... I blamed Chrysler, but I still can, they implemented it. ;) > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010, Kevin wrote: > > # one good example of a car manufacturer dumping something that didn't work > # and going back to old school was ford with the F-250 - after fifteen or so > # years of torturing us with a 4x4 suspension that changed alignment settings > # based on the load the truck had in the bed, they scrapped the twin traction > # beam and went back to a straight axle. > # > # then again, that's about the only example I can come up with. > # > # Chrysler was not responsible for the ZJ, AMC had the plans for the ZJ drawn > # in 1986 before Chrysler bought them. AMC shelved the plans, Chrysler thought > # it could replace the XJ, and it didn't. > # > # and as far as the french goes, I read somewhere the french were rather involved > # in the design of the xj - I think they were the ones who got their hands on > # the supercomputer modelling, but don't remember exactly what the story was > # there. Probably something for another list... > # > # On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 09:04:48AM -0700, john wrote: > # > We love our '99 WJ with the 4.7, but sure wish we could have had the CRD... > # > > # > but you do realize Terry that Chrysler is responsible for the WJ... they > # > were also responsible for the horrible ZJ, and of course the KJ... > # > > # > they got lucky with the WJ... somehow... only issue with it is the pedestrian > # > sized blind spot, but otherwise, they're good rigs. > # > > # > On Wed, 21 Apr 2010, Terry Halmshaw wrote: > # > > # > # Rarely does a car company revert to old methods, generally they improve > # > # what fails rather then admit it failed, although in my opinion improving > # > # something tells me it wasn't good enough in the first place. > # _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:30:29 -0700 From: Kevin Subject: Re: fsj: tempting... Mine either. My 77 with 401 (though a cherokee) used to get 12 reliably as long as I wasn't towing, and could eek out 13 when I was really behaving. Then the carb took a dump, and being an idiot, I swapped it for a rebuilt. It's never cleared 7 since. Each motorcraft four barrel I come across is warped and cannot be used. The truck has been off the road for years now. Given infinite time and money (hah), I'd probably get a howell TBI setup for it, since fuel delivery was really its only problem. Even the prestolite behaved on it. Realistically, it'll probably get a quadrajet or something along those lines. Oh, and yes, it's still full-time, never converted. On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 01:54:48PM -0700, john wrote: > ...401... low miles... rust free... > > http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/cto/1699746528.html > > 8mpg isn't my thing though... :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:36:38 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: 2011 GChero wow, didn't know that about Cray... that camaro had to be cooking though, you sit up pretty high in an XJ compared to a car... I think the XJ was one of the best 20 cars ever made, keeping the SJ in the top 10 of course... that later model version of the Chinese XJ is a nice blend of WJ and XJ... too bad we can't get something like that... with a Diesel... I don't care what it is, if it's got a Diesel, I'll consider it if I can afford it. ;) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 20 Apr 2010, Kevin wrote: # I can't find where I put those notes, but the XJ was the first joint design # between Renault and AMC. While most of the sketches and clay models came from # Teague's engineers, Francois Castaing (who was placed with AMC by Renault) # was the brainchild behind dropping all the weight and using much smaller # engines than the previous cherokees had. The front suspension was designed # by a guy AMC stole from Ford, IIRC. # # The real involvement, though, was that Renault had the computer power to # do finite element analysis, send the engineers back, then redo analysis # and whatnot. This is where the real success of the XJ, departed from true # body on frame construction, really pulled ahead from everything else in # terms of rigidity. # # Ironically, Seymour Cray, who founded Cray Research, was killed in 1996 when # his XJ was hit in the doors by an out of control camaro. The computers that # the XJ was designed on were Crays. # # On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 01:53:08PM -0700, john wrote: # > the french did not do the XJ... that should be obvious. ;) # > # > it wasn't until '85 that we saw some involvement with the drivetrain with the Renault 2.1L TD. # > # > there was a partnership and a few parts were french, the rear wiper, later the # > Renix computer for the 4.0, but for the most part that was solid AMC engineering... # > # > you're probably right on the ZJ... I blamed Chrysler, but I still can, they implemented it. ;) # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:34:26 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero Georges Besse, (assassinated in 1986), Renault executive vetoed the sale to Chrysler and was executed for it by an extremist who didn't want French government involved in making cars in America when there were few jobs at home. The idiot put thousands of French out of work by killing Besse. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:23:06 -0700 > From: kevin-at-mordred.punk.net > To: john-at-wagoneers.com > CC: timesawastin-at-bigpond.com; fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: 2011 GChero > > I can't find where I put those notes, but the XJ was the first joint design > between Renault and AMC. While most of the sketches and clay models came from > Teague's engineers, Francois Castaing (who was placed with AMC by Renault) > was the brainchild behind dropping all the weight and using much smaller > engines than the previous cherokees had. The front suspension was designed > by a guy AMC stole from Ford, IIRC. > > The real involvement, though, was that Renault had the computer power to > do finite element analysis, send the engineers back, then redo analysis > and whatnot. This is where the real success of the XJ, departed from true > body on frame construction, really pulled ahead from everything else in > terms of rigidity. > > Ironically, Seymour Cray, who founded Cray Research, was killed in 1996 when > his XJ was hit in the doors by an out of control camaro. The computers that > the XJ was designed on were Crays. > > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 01:53:08PM -0700, john wrote: > > the french did not do the XJ... that should be obvious. ;) > > > > it wasn't until '85 that we saw some involvement with the drivetrain with the Renault 2.1L TD. > > > > there was a partnership and a few parts were french, the rear wiper, later the > > Renix computer for the 4.0, but for the most part that was solid AMC engineering... > > > > you're probably right on the ZJ... I blamed Chrysler, but I still can, they implemented it. ;) _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:06:52 -0400 From: wallacem7-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Chrysler, XJ's, and the French Connection, and Hemmings Motor News I worked at Chrysler as an engineer some years back and then worked as a supplier on some Chrysler product for a few years. I left Detroit because of my car guy perceptions about what was wrong in the industry that couldn't be corrected. Okay I am a car guy through and through...driven my Wag since I was 15 (two decades ago) restored sports cars to keep the wolf back from the door in college. I have built a few cars from the ground up over the years. I likely could have been developed in any department in engineering. So I hired in at a low wage, launched two products out of four plants in one summer and took a pay cut so i left. As a real car guy I was in the minority. They were really into MBA's when I was there...I saw more than a few bean counters who couldn't change their oil or change a flat tire get promotions. Nobody who really appreciated the product. The bean counters and the MBAs really didn't understand that what you are selling with a car is a fashion accessory and a lifestyle. I don't think a John Delorean or a Lee Iacocca would have a chance today in the automobile industry. The XJ predated the French. It was the last Jeep designed on the board. I was told that the mules (early concept prototypes) were built with bits of Wagoneer and bits of AMC Eagle. What the French brought to AMC and later Chrysler was Catia which was a drafting software that was initially developed to design the Concorde. It wasn't until the mid 1990s that Chrysler was building cars that had been designed on the tube. Jeep today presents a substantial business challenge in that if you built something that respected the heritage of even an early 80's CJ it would be too crude for 99.98% of today's buyers. The buyers who are going to have a trail truck are too small a population to develop a vehicle for. So what you have is these caricatures that they are building today. Now you can go into the back of the 4x4 magazines and buy a body and a frame and build whatever jeep you want from parts. As far as getting a title where there is a will there is a way. When I was still in automotive a standard dare among my coworkers was to "Go out to lunch with Mark in his Wagoneer". There was a lack of curiosity about how someone might customize a car to their own purposes. So off the soapbox...there's a one page write-up on Wagoneers in this month's Hemmings Motor News. Mark Wallace 81 Wag ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:39:33 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Chrysler, XJ's, and the French Connection, and Hemmings Motor News thanx for the history lesson... :) sad though... there was a book out in the '60s called CARS, it talked about detroit and a lot of what you saw was already in the works... to some extent it's true in all the industries. ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 20 Apr 2010, wallacem7-at-aol.com wrote: # I worked at Chrysler as an engineer some years back and then worked as a # supplier on some Chrysler product for a few years. I left Detroit because of # my car guy perceptions about what was wrong in the industry that couldn't be # corrected. Okay I am a car guy through and through...driven my Wag since I # was 15 (two decades ago) restored sports cars to keep the wolf back from the # door in college. I have built a few cars from the ground up over the years. I # likely could have been developed in any department in engineering. So I hired # in at a low wage, launched two products out of four plants in one summer and # took a pay cut so i left. As a real car guy I was in the minority. They were # really into MBA's when I was there...I saw more than a few bean counters who # couldn't change their oil or change a flat tire get promotions. Nobody who # really appreciated the product. The bean counters and the MBAs really didn't # understand that what you are selling with a car is a fashion accessory and a # lifestyle. I don't think a John Delorean or a Lee Iacocca would have a chance # today in the automobile industry. # # The XJ predated the French. It was the last Jeep designed on the board. I was # told that the mules (early concept prototypes) were built with bits of # Wagoneer and bits of AMC Eagle. What the French brought to AMC and later # Chrysler was Catia which was a drafting software that was initially developed # to design the Concorde. It wasn't until the mid 1990s that Chrysler was # building cars that had been designed on the tube. # # Jeep today presents a substantial business challenge in that if you built # something that respected the heritage of even an early 80's CJ it would be too # crude for 99.98% of today's buyers. The buyers who are going to have a trail # truck are too small a population to develop a vehicle for. So what you have is # these caricatures that they are building today. Now you can go into the back # of the 4x4 magazines and buy a body and a frame and build whatever jeep you # want from parts. As far as getting a title where there is a will there is a # way. When I was still in automotive a standard dare among my coworkers was to # "Go out to lunch with Mark in his Wagoneer". There was a lack of curiosity # about how someone might customize a car to their own purposes. # # So off the soapbox...there's a one page write-up on Wagoneers in this month's # Hemmings Motor News. # # Mark Wallace # 81 Wag # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 00:43:57 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Chrysler, XJ's, and the French Connection, and Hemmings Motor News or what it wheels? will see if I can remember or find out, pretty sure it was one wod. :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 21 Apr 2010, Terry Halmshaw wrote: # The book was called "cars cars cars" I have a # copy, # fine reading, although a little brief. # # # At 08:39 PM 4/20/2010, you wrote: # >thanx for the history lesson... :) # > # >sad though... # > # >there was a book out in the '60s called CARS, it # >talked about detroit # >and a lot of what you saw was already in the # >works... # > # >to some extent it's true in all the industries. # > # > # > # > ----- # >------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps # >don't rust, they mold # >http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si # >vis pacem, para bellum # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com # >http://fotomeister.us # >------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # >On Tue, 20 Apr 2010, wallacem7-at-aol.com wrote: # > # > # I worked at Chrysler as an engineer some years # > # back and then worked as a # > # supplier on some Chrysler product for a few # > # years. I left # > Detroit because of # > # my car guy perceptions about what was wrong in # > # the industry that # > couldn't be # > # corrected. Okay I am a car guy through and # > # through...driven my # > Wag since I # > # was 15 (two decades ago) restored sports cars # > # to keep the wolf # > back from the # > # door in college. I have built a few cars from # > # the ground up over # > the years. I # > # likely could have been developed in any # > # department in # > engineering. So I hired # > # in at a low wage, launched two products out of # > # four plants in # > one summer and # > # took a pay cut so i left. As a real car guy I # > # was in the # > minority. They were # > # really into MBA's when I was there...I saw # > # more than a few bean # > counters who # > # couldn't change their oil or change a flat # > # tire get promotions. Nobody who # > # really appreciated the product. The bean # > # counters and the MBAs # > really didn't # > # understand that what you are selling with a # > # car is a fashion # > accessory and a # > # lifestyle. I don't think a John Delorean or a # > # Lee Iacocca would # > have a chance # > # today in the automobile industry. # > # # > # The XJ predated the French. It was the last # > # Jeep designed on the # > board. I was # > # told that the mules (early concept prototypes) # > # were built with bits of # > # Wagoneer and bits of AMC Eagle. What the # > # French brought to AMC and later # > # Chrysler was Catia which was a drafting # > # software that was # > initially developed # > # to design the Concorde. It wasn't until the # > # mid 1990s that Chrysler was # > # building cars that had been designed on the # > # tube. # > # # > # Jeep today presents a substantial business # > # challenge in that if you built # > # something that respected the heritage of even # > # an early 80's CJ # > it would be too # > # crude for 99.98% of today's buyers. The buyers # > # who are going to # > have a trail # > # truck are too small a population to develop a # > # vehicle for. So # > what you have is # > # these caricatures that they are building # > # today. Now you can go # > into the back # > # of the 4x4 magazines and buy a body and a # > # frame and build # > whatever jeep you # > # want from parts. As far as getting a title # > # where there is a will # > there is a # > # way. When I was still in automotive a standard # > # dare among my # > coworkers was to # > # "Go out to lunch with Mark in his Wagoneer". # > # There was a lack of curiosity # > # about how someone might customize a car to # > # their own purposes. # > # # > # So off the soapbox...there's a one page # > # write-up on Wagoneers in # > this month's # > # Hemmings Motor News. # > # # > # Mark Wallace # > # 81 Wag # > # # # ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:39:21 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero and citroen and the french The worst part of the hydraulic is "one pump" for all hydraulic system, the pump goes, so do the brakes, the steering the suspension and now you have a real lowrider. The neat part about the suspension was the tire replacement position, it elevated the car so high that you could do without a jack, but I think you had to pop the rear fender to remove the rear wheel. I never borrowed one for that long, but it was good for driving thru the fields, yep off roading in a citroen and yes it was front wheel drive since 1955, the successor of the traction avant a true adventure, the first front wheel drive car designed in 1936ish. International engagement in the car industry is quite an adventure, designing bearings with the british, at some point the OD was standard and the ID metric.... until the brits went metric, but they have not adopted the euro yet. Cheers Michel From: carnuck-at-hotmail.com To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com; fsj-at-digest.net Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:48:08 -0700 I had a Citroen with that combined suspension and drive system that was hydraulic. When it popped a leak, all that Ca$trol fluid leaked out and it co$t about $250 to replace (now it's more) Some people substituted ATF but the seals would blow out. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > From: mbalea-at-hotmail.com > To: dan-at-black.org; fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: RE: fsj: 2011 GChero > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:32:10 +0000 > > They should have asked the french to design it, Citroen has it on their top of > the line vehicles since.... 1960 or so on the DS which was a gasser > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeVnnCdjv8&NR=1 > > youtube is full of various demos > > and the CX with the 2.5 Diesel turbo for John > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8HxK6ypjgw&feature=related > > Michel > 74wag > > > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 00:45:56 -0500 > > Subject: fsj: 2011 GChero > > From: dan > > Air suspension? > > Sheesh, if you _really_ want to do something like that, do it right -- > > maybe some hydraulic gimmick or something. But air shocks have never > > been a good solution and likely never will be. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL > :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get started. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3566 **************************