From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Jul 6 11:39:18 2010 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, July 6 2010 Volume 01 : Number 3599 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid RE: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid RE: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid Re: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid RE: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 23:43:15 -0400 From: wallacem7-at-aol.com Subject: Re: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid Every time I have ever opened up an automatic transmission I have always found some debris in the pan. Even if you do use a vacuum pump to drain the oil I'd still pull the pan, clean the pan, and change the filter. If memory serves torque on the screws for the filter is 35 inch*lbs. That being said my transmission fluid change interval is pretty long...I think with the Wag it's been over a decade (which is maybe 40,000 miles, with four of just sitting) with the Dakota it's probably been five years and 50,000 miles. Both are due. I go about 6000 miles on oil in my engines or a year, which ever comes first. Been running Rotella 15W-40 in my older engines for about two years now. For differentials I either drop the pan or use a hardware store suction gun. The suction gun takes a long, long time...maybe long enough to listen to all of Johnny Cash at San Quentin, but you don't need a new gasket that way...it's also faster than pulling apart a Ford 9 inch. When I put my locker in my rear axle I pulled the diff cover, drained the stinky gear oil, and then apparently took a three hour nap under the Wag next to the pan of stinky gear oil. I would recommend omitting that particular step. I have the same engine oil drain that points at the front differential. I think that was a holdover from the differential being on the other side. You can get a little better access if you put the Jeep on jack stands and let the axle droop. You can hold the drain pan up to the car that way. Or you can do a trick that I learned when dealing with canister oil filters on British cars (which are always messy) and make a cardboard chute to direct the oil away from where you don't want it. I am also a heavy user of speedy dry, Simple Green, Purple Power, etc, so if I get a little oil on the floor no big deal. I did get the concrete mixing pan at the home depot in part to change the oil on the fork truck at work. It works pretty well and is plenty big enough for a TF 727 or a TH 400, or to have the oil pan plug off at the same time as the oil filter. Changing oil for me is usually a deal where I will either do it while I am working on something else on the car, or I will change the oil on all my cars, and all my parents cars all in one shot. Then I have a great big bucket of used oil that I give to a friend who has a waste oil burner. Of course getting dirty doesn't phase me as it really is my natural state. Mark 81Wag - -----Original Message----- From: Michel Balea To: Mark Wallace ; fsgdigestlast last Sent: Sat, Jul 3, 2010 11:21 pm Subject: RE: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid Reviving an old thread to take the mess out of a spill. I was contemplating the vacuum or suction method that appears on some of the foreign car boards. Basically the same technique used to siphon oil from boat engines. A big canister is equipped with a pump to create vacuum and a small hose is inserted in the dipstick opening. It probably takes a while to drain 8 quarts, but for our transmission with a large mouth dipstick, this seems like the ideal solution for a price of $60ish..... could be used for the differential as well. But beware that the tubes seem to be sensitive to heat, some reports melting the tube, so a copper tubing could be better. Here we go, I do not own the model listed, but the forum was referenced after a search for a vacuum method, this is an entertaining 7 page rant. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread m.php?t=371807 I use an electrical vacuum pump to clean the bottom of the oil pan every other oil change or when I feel like it after dumping a cup of MMO, it cleans the suction hose and the remaining waste. In fact draining the oil pan out of the 85 is rather messy as the drain plug is facing the front diff, what were they thinking of. Michel 74 and 85 FSJs > To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid > Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:18:09 -0400 > From: wallacem7-at-aol.com > > Drain the tranny before you even consider taking it out. One time, many many > years ago I decided that draining the tranny was 'too much work' so I pulled > the T-case and pulled the engine with the tranny. The tranny output shaft's > seal is in the T-Case if I remember correctly and I made an enormous mess of > transmission fluid. No big deal right...just put down some speedy dry and > continue to work. Only speedy dry, and tranny fluid in your shirt makes a very > itchy combination. I think I was changing my shirt three times a day during > that little job. I reinstalled the trans with an aluminum deep finned pan with > a drain plug. Same goes for the T-case, drain that before it comes out as > well. > > I need to service the trans on my Dakota right now and it still has the > original tranny pan on it. I went to the Pep Boys to get a big oil drain pain > and they had a whole lot of nothing. I think I'll get one of the little > concrete mixing tubs at the Home Despot or Lowes...more than big enough and > then I can clean it up and mix cement in it later . They are polyethylene so > no chemicals (Diesel, gas, MEK, trannny fluid) should attack the plastic. > > You can pull a valve body with the trans in the truck...probably the easiest > way to do it. On the TF 727 access to some of the pan bolts is not great, but > it's easy enough to pull the crossmember and set the trans on a jackstand. I'd > put the whole Jeep on jackstands...if I remember correctly when you pull the > valve body you lose 'park' Changing the trans fluid and adjusting the bands is > something that needs to be done from time to time to get a long life out of > the trans anyway. > > Mark Wallace > 81 Wag The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get started.= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 15:46:08 +0000 From: Michel Balea Subject: RE: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid Good point on the transmission, the suction helps to limit getting a face wash while removing the pan when it is full. The concrete tub is great idea, I had a drip pan when I did the trany service and a lot of kitty litter. As for intervals on the trany, yes, it is amazing how much crud you can find regardless if it is 5 or 30K miles, different vehicles and usages. The 5K miles on the TF727 including towing another wagoneer over the sierras foothill which I did in the cold days of winter, but I stopped a few times when I could feel the temp of the trany hump getting warmer. The 30 or 40K were on the TH400. I am due for the TH400 and need a recommendation on a filter brand name..... The last one I installed -an orange box one- was labelled to be replaced at 10 or 12K and most of the others were done at a good trany place until they let the fluid dump on the exhaust and let me go on my merry way which lasted 2minutes when the smoke of the burning trany fluid billowed behind me..... The oil pan on the 74 is facing rearward, I wished it was sideways as it would clear the exhaust cross over.... The cardboard baffle is a very good idea, I always put a big cardboard under the vehicle to limit oil spill cleanup.... and this time the kitty litter came handy, I kept the plug inserted for 15 seconds, but it was too hot to handle even w the glove.... and could not insert it back to wait for the oil to cool down..... at least there are no traces of the spill. Going back to the suction, I finished the oil drain by inserting a small 1/8" tubing to remove the remaining oil in the pan and got a good 5 to 6 oz of old oil, which I flushed again with some MMO until the oil was clear or red in this case. The diff gear lube smell is amazing, the 85 has probably synth gear lube, it does not stink and is clear while the 74 is dark and is a cross between a dead whale and old oil. As for group oil change, the other cars that I could service are too fancy for my services and need too many extra steps (ramps or jacks as they are too low to even slide a ratchet and those big canister with too many o-rings) and too much oil for one oil drain with about 8q, I only have a 10 quart container which satisfy 2 oil changes and at least a motorcycle drain. Michel To: mbalea-at-hotmail.com; fsj-digest-at-digest.net Subject: Re: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 23:43:15 -0400 From: wallacem7-at-aol.com Every time I have ever opened up an automatic transmission I have always found some debris in the pan. Even if you do use a vacuum pump to drain the oil I'd still pull the pan, clean the pan, and change the filter. If memory serves torque on the screws for the filter is 35 inch*lbs. That being said my transmission fluid change interval is pretty long...I think with the Wag it's been over a decade (which is maybe 40,000 miles, with four of just sitting) with the Dakota it's probably been five years and 50,000 miles. Both are due. I go about 6000 miles on oil in my engines or a year, which ever comes first. Been running Rotella 15W-40 in my older engines for about two years now. For differentials I either drop the pan or use a hardware store suction gun. The suction gun takes a long, long time...maybe long enough to listen to all of Johnny Cash at San Quentin, but you don't need a new gasket that way...it's also faster than pulling apart a Ford 9 inch. When I put my locker in my rear axle I pulled the diff cover, drained the stinky gear oil, and then apparently took a three hour nap under the Wag next to the pan of stinky gear oil. I would recommend omitting that particular step. I have the same engine oil drain that points at the front differential. I think that was a holdover from the differential being on the other side. You can get a little better access if you put the Jeep on jack stands and let the axle droop. You can hold the drain pan up to the car that way. Or you can do a trick that I learned when dealing with canister oil filters on British cars (which are always messy) and make a cardboard chute to direct the oil away from where you don't want it. I am also a heavy user of speedy dry, Simple Green, Purple Power, etc, so if I get a little oil on the floor no big deal. I did get the concrete mixing pan at the home depot in part to change the oil on the fork truck at work. It works pretty well and is plenty big enough for a TF 727 or a TH 400, or to have the oil pan plug off at the same time as the oil filter. Changing oil for me is usually a deal where I will either do it while I am working on something else on the car, or I will change the oil on all my cars, and all my parents cars all in one shot. Then I have a great big bucket of used oil that I give to a friend who has a waste oil burner. Of course getting dirty doesn't phase me as it really is my natural state. Mark 81Wag - -----Original Message----- From: Michel Balea To: Mark Wallace ; fsgdigestlast last Sent: Sat, Jul 3, 2010 11:21 pm Subject: RE: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid Reviving an old thread to take the mess out of a spill. I was contemplating the vacuum or suction method that appears on some of the foreign car boards. Basically the same technique used to siphon oil from boat engines. A big canister is equipped with a pump to create vacuum and a small hose is inserted in the dipstick opening. It probably takes a while to drain 8 quarts, but for our transmission with a large mouth dipstick, this seems like the ideal solution for a price of $60ish..... could be used for the differential as well. But beware that the tubes seem to be sensitive to heat, some reports melting the tube, so a copper tubing could be better. Here we go, I do not own the model listed, but the forum was referenced after a search for a vacuum method, this is an entertaining 7 page rant. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread m.php?t=371807 I use an electrical vacuum pump to clean the bottom of the oil pan every other oil change or when I feel like it after dumping a cup of MMO, it cleans the suction hose and the remaining waste. In fact draining the oil pan out of the 85 is rather messy as the drain plug is facing the front diff, what were they thinking of. Michel 74 and 85 FSJs > To: fsj-digest-at-digest.net > Subject: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid > Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:18:09 -0400 > From: wallacem7-at-aol.com > > Drain the tranny before you even consider taking it out. One time, many many > years ago I decided that draining the tranny was 'too much work' so I pulled > the T-case and pulled the engine with the tranny. The tranny output shaft's > seal is in the T-Case if I remember correctly and I made an enormous mess of > transmission fluid. No big deal right...just put down some speedy dry and > continue to work. Only speedy dry, and tranny fluid in your shirt makes a very > itchy combination. I think I was changing my shirt three times a day during > that little job. I reinstalled the trans with an aluminum deep finned pan with > a drain plug. Same goes for the T-case, drain that before it comes out as > well. > > I need to service the trans on my Dakota right now and it still has the > original tranny pan on it. I went to the Pep Boys to get a big oil drain pain > and they had a whole lot of nothing. I think I'll get one of the little > concrete mixing tubs at the Home Despot or Lowes...more than big enough and > then I can clean it up and mix cement in it later . They are polyethylene so > no chemicals (Diesel, gas, MEK, trannny fluid) should attack the plastic. > > You can pull a valve body with the trans in the truck...probably the easiest > way to do it. On the TF 727 access to some of the pan bolts is not great, but > it's easy enough to pull the crossmember and set the trans on a jackstand. I'd > put the whole Jeep on jackstands...if I remember correctly when you pull the > valve body you lose 'park' Changing the trans fluid and adjusting the bands is > something that needs to be done from time to time to get a long life out of > the trans anyway. > > Mark Wallace > 81 Wag The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get started.= _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID2832 6::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:26:52 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid The whale oil smell is posi additive Good point on the transmission, the suction helps to limit getting a face wash while removing the pan when it is full. The concrete tub is great idea, I had a drip pan when I did the trany service and a lot of kitty litter. As for intervals on the trany, yes, it is amazing how much crud you can find regardless if it is 5 or 30K miles, different vehicles and usages. The 5K miles on the TF727 including towing another wagoneer over the sierras foothill which I did in the cold days of winter, but I stopped a few times when I could feel the temp of the trany hump getting warmer. The 30 or 40K were on the TH400. I am due for the TH400 and need a recommendation on a filter brand name..... The last one I installed -an orange box one- was labelled to be replaced at 10 or 12K and most of the others were done at a good trany place until they let the fluid dump on the exhaust and let me go on my merry way which lasted 2minutes when the smoke of the burning trany fluid billowed behind me..... The oil pan on the 74 is facing rearward, I wished it was sideways as it would clear the exhaust cross over.... The cardboard baffle is a very good idea, I always put a big cardboard under the vehicle to limit oil spill cleanup.... and this time the kitty litter came handy, I kept the plug inserted for 15 seconds, but it was too hot to handle even w the glove.... and could not insert it back to wait for the oil to cool down..... at least there are no traces of the spill. Going back to the suction, I finished the oil drain by inserting a small 1/8" tubing to remove the remaining oil in the pan and got a good 5 to 6 oz of old oil, which I flushed again with some MMO until the oil was clear or red in this case. The diff gear lube smell is amazing, the 85 has probably synth gear lube, it does not stink and is clear while the 74 is dark and is a cross between a dead whale and old oil. As for group oil change, the other cars that I could service are too fancy for my services and need too many extra steps (ramps or jacks as they are too low to even slide a ratchet and those big canister with too many o-rings) and too much oil for one oil drain with about 8q, I only have a 10 quart container which satisfy 2 oil changes and at least a motorcycle drain. Michel _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID283 26::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 17:30:55 +0000 From: dieseljohn-at-comcast.net Subject: Re: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid Take it apart once. Add an in line remote filter and refill will amsoil synthetic. Change the filter once every five years. Maybe. Set it and forget it. Amsoil, linux and salvation. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T - -----Original Message----- From: Jim Blair Sender: owner-fsj-at-digest.net Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:26:52 To: ; local Jeep list Reply-To: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid The whale oil smell is posi additive Good point on the transmission, the suction helps to limit getting a face wash while removing the pan when it is full. The concrete tub is great idea, I had a drip pan when I did the trany service and a lot of kitty litter. As for intervals on the trany, yes, it is amazing how much crud you can find regardless if it is 5 or 30K miles, different vehicles and usages. The 5K miles on the TF727 including towing another wagoneer over the sierras foothill which I did in the cold days of winter, but I stopped a few times when I could feel the temp of the trany hump getting warmer. The 30 or 40K were on the TH400. I am due for the TH400 and need a recommendation on a filter brand name..... The last one I installed -an orange box one- was labelled to be replaced at 10 or 12K and most of the others were done at a good trany place until they let the fluid dump on the exhaust and let me go on my merry way which lasted 2minutes when the smoke of the burning trany fluid billowed behind me..... The oil pan on the 74 is facing rearward, I wished it was sideways as it would clear the exhaust cross over.... The cardboard baffle is a very good idea, I always put a big cardboard under the vehicle to limit oil spill cleanup.... and this time the kitty litter came handy, I kept the plug inserted for 15 seconds, but it was too hot to handle even w the glove.... and could not insert it back to wait for the oil to cool down..... at least there are no traces of the spill. Going back to the suction, I finished the oil drain by inserting a small 1/8" tubing to remove the remaining oil in the pan and got a good 5 to 6 oz of old oil, which I flushed again with some MMO until the oil was clear or red in this case. The diff gear lube smell is amazing, the 85 has probably synth gear lube, it does not stink and is clear while the 74 is dark and is a cross between a dead whale and old oil. As for group oil change, the other cars that I could service are too fancy for my services and need too many extra steps (ramps or jacks as they are too low to even slide a ratchet and those big canister with too many o-rings) and too much oil for one oil drain with about 8q, I only have a 10 quart container which satisfy 2 oil changes and at least a motorcycle drain. Michel _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID283 26::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:42:38 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid The smell was from the diff oil. ;) Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Subject: Re: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid > To: carnuck-at-hotmail.com; mbalea-at-hotmail.com; fsj-at-digest.net > From: dieseljohn-at-comcast.net > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 17:30:55 +0000 > > Take it apart once. Add an in line remote filter and refill will amsoil synthetic. Change the filter once every five years. Maybe. Set it and forget it. Amsoil, linux and salvation. > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Blair > Sender: owner-fsj-at-digest.net > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:26:52 > To: ; local Jeep list > Reply-To: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Making a mess of tranny fluid > > The whale oil smell is posi additive > > > Good point on the transmission, the suction helps to limit getting a face > wash > while removing the pan when it is full. The concrete tub is great idea, I had > a drip pan when I did the trany service and a lot of kitty litter. > > As for intervals on the trany, yes, it is amazing how much crud you can find > regardless if it is 5 or 30K miles, different vehicles and usages. The 5K > miles on the TF727 including towing another wagoneer over the sierras > foothill > which I did in the cold days of winter, but I stopped a few times when I > could > feel the temp of the trany hump getting warmer. The 30 or 40K were on the > TH400. > > I am due for the TH400 and need a recommendation on a filter brand name..... > The last one I installed -an orange box one- was labelled to be replaced at > 10 > or 12K and most of the others were done at a good trany place until they let > the fluid dump on the exhaust and let me go on my merry way which lasted > 2minutes when the smoke of the burning trany fluid billowed behind me..... > > The oil pan on the 74 is facing rearward, I wished it was sideways as it > would > clear the exhaust cross over.... The cardboard baffle is a very good idea, I > always put a big cardboard under the vehicle to limit oil spill cleanup.... > and this time the kitty litter came handy, I kept the plug inserted for 15 > seconds, but it was too hot to handle even w the glove.... and could not > insert it back to wait for the oil to cool down..... at least there are no > traces of the spill. Going back to the suction, I finished the oil drain by > inserting a small 1/8" tubing to remove the remaining oil in the pan and got > a > good 5 to 6 oz of old oil, which I flushed again with some MMO until the oil > was clear or red in this case. > > The diff gear lube smell is amazing, the 85 has probably synth gear lube, it > does not stink and is clear while the 74 is dark and is a cross between a > dead > whale and old oil. > > As for group oil change, the other cars that I could service are too fancy > for > my services and need too many extra steps (ramps or jacks as they are too low > to even slide a ratchet and those big canister with too many o-rings) and too > much oil for one oil drain with about 8q, I only have a 10 quart container > which satisfy 2 oil changes and at least a motorcycle drain. > > Michel > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with > Hotmail. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID283 > 26::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL :en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3599 **************************