From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Aug 31 03:54:44 2010 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, August 31 2010 Volume 01 : Number 3620 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Header install tips? fsj: Headers and Dual Exhausts RE: fsj: exhaust detail RE: fsj: Header install tips? Re: fsj: Header install tips? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:53:51 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Header install tips? that should work, have used a 2.5" before with flowmaster, will sound good, not too loud, will breathe. on old blue I went from 0to 60 in 18 seconds down to about 15 seconds with that setup. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, JeepNut wrote: # Appreciate the feedback one and all. Sage advice it sounds like to me. I'll # spend that money elsewhere I'm sure. # # Talked to a guy at a shop here in town. # Says he used to race a Javelin w/ a 401 and actually got WORSE times when he # went to a 3" exhaust. (and was shocked) Agrees that the OEM manifolds move # air just fine and recommended that since I'm interested more in torque than # H/P, to stay with 2.5" all the way out with a nice Flowmaster in the middle. # Sounds like a plan unless good arguments can be made to the contrary. # # JeepNut # ---------------------------------------------------------- # '92 Cherokee # Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of # the grandkids in 2009 -at- 270K # miles.... # '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. # '87 Street # Comanche #24/100. In storage. # '88 Grand Wagoneer # - '81 AMC 360 -.030 over- # Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, # TFI System upgrade, TF727 -mild kit- # NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- # B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, stainless # extended brake lines, # ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15 # 14 # Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. # ---------------------------------------------------------- # Registered Linux # user #287453 # # # --- On Mon, 8/30/10, john wrote: # # > From: # john # > Subject: Re: fsj: Header install tips? # > To: "Dan # Black" # > Cc: "Full Size Jeeps" # > Date: # Monday, August 30, 2010, 1:29 AM # > yes, there were redundancies... and # > # you're right, probably closer # > to 3,500 rpm... maybe a tad lower, but still, # well above # > peak torque, # > and not all headers are the same... but then again # I've # > usually done # > stuff on custom swaps... # > # > no matter what, headers # aren't worth the trouble. # > # > john # > # > # > # > ----- # > # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where # > Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > # http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # > si vis pacem, para bellum # > # http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Dan Black wrote: # > # > # On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 22:47, # john # > wrote: # > # > you don't want headers... # > # > # > # # > 1) they create additional heat in the engine bay # > # # > # Umm, maybe, # but I never had any problems. # > # # > # > 2) they work loose unless you spend # money on # > aircraft fasteners # > # # > # Yes. And that's a pain. # > # # > # > # 3) they create additional noise # > # # > # Yeah, that's part of the point for # some of us. # > ;) But it's not much # > # different. # > # # > # > 4) they # really don't do much until you get to # > around 4,000 rpm # > # # > # Meh, I'd # say lower than that, but they didn't make as # > big a difference # > # as I # expected and hoped. # > # # > # > 5) stock manifolds help develop torque at the # lower # > rpms # > # # > # This is essentially part of point #4. # > # # > # > 6) # stock manifolds require only occassional # > tightening # > # # > # This is # essentially part of point #2. # > # # > # > 7) stock manifolds don't add as # much heat to the # > engine bay # > # # > # This _is_ point #1. # > # # > # > 8) # stock manifolds do not interfere with steering # > # # > # Huh? Neither do my # headers. # > # # > # > 9) stock manifolds solve the problem of connecting # > # both sides. # > # # > # You have the same issue with manifolds or headers. # > # If you get stock # > # manifolds, then you can use the stock crossover, but you # > can also get # > # the proper crossover / y-pipe for the headers. I # > got a # kit -- IIRC, # > # Edelbrock -- that worked just fine. # > # # > # > If you want # to uncork the engine a bit, go with a # > 3" exhaust # > # > after the collector # and get a three chamber # > flowmaster... the # > # > dynaflows are noisy and # rattle... a two chamber # > flowmaster would # > # > be too noisy. # > # # > # # IIRC, I got the Borla XR1 muffler and some high-flow # > cat. Each was # > # # probably $150 or so at Summit. Both were 3" input # > and output. (The # > # # headers go through a Y that ends with a 2.5" diameter, # > so there's a # > # # section to go from the 2.5" to 3" -- then it's 3" all # > the way back.) # > # # Everything from the cat back is stainless, and it # > definitely lasted # > # # longer. # > # # > # > even a 2.5" exhaust system will work well... you # > could # run a dual # > # > exhaust setup, but a large single exhaust works as # > well # and is less # > # > complicated on a 4x4. # > # # > # Yeah, getting around the # fuel tank would be # > annoying. I considered # > # that briefly. # > # # > # > a # good ignition system, a nice edelbrock performer # > intake and 1406 # > # > with # a nice 3" exhaust will work nicely for you... # > on my '81 I got it up # > # > # to ALMOST 13 mpg that way. :) # > # # > # I'd second that. I don't think # _all_ John's # > reasons were valid, and # > # some only count as one point, but # the headers really # > aren't worth the # > # hassle of re-tightening them all # the time. # > # # > # Either way, though, I'd use copper gaskets (for the # > # manifolds or # > # headers) as long as you have them off anyway. # > Those # things rock. # > # # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 01:46:32 -0400 From: wallacem7-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Headers and Dual Exhausts I have a 360 real similar to yours....030 overbore, Melling RV cam, Cloyes dual roller timing chain, three angle valve grind, edelbrock Performer intake, Carter AFB carb 650 CFM I think. I ran a Holley 600 CFM for a number of years. At one point in the very distant past I ran dual glasspacks both on the same side of the driveshaft and dumping right ahead of the rear axle (bad place to dump the exhaust...it all drafted back in). The dual exhaust drone would still be in your head long after you had parked for the night and gone to bed. My most recent and future exhaust system is a 2.5 inch three chamber flowmaster. (I currently have a straight pipe which is way too loud) I liked the flowmaster so much I put a two chamber Flowmaster on my Dakota (318 doesn't have enough cam to be that loud) With the big cam the three chamber flowmaster is loud...I don't know if I would wear earplugs on a long drive or not. I drove the glasspacks for four years and across the country several times. The flowmaster in both the Jeep and the Dodge have been on long highway trips as well. The single flowmaster is definitely more tolerable than dual glasspacks. I also don't know how much of my hearing loss is attributable to loud exhausts and how much comes from not wearing ear plugs when I worked in a restoration shop. I have never had headers on the Wag...always the stock manifolds...with the Eastwood coating on them...they still look pretty decent ten years on. My manifolds stay put...I don't think I have tightened them in a decade. What I did is I bought hardware store grade 8 fasteners and then I buggered up the threads a little way up the bolt with a ball peen hammer on the vice. I left enough good threads to start the bolt in. (At the time I was working at Chrysler and we would buy fasteners that were pre-dinged so they would stay on) I have Fel Pro gaskets under the manifolds which I am happy with as they don't leak. I built this engine about 100,000 miles ago in the summer of 1995. I was 19 years old at the time and if I were to build it today I'd build it a little different. The big thing I would change is that I would go with much higher compression. I would consider 12:1 and running E-85...which would require fuel injection. Although I could run premium at 11:1 and still run a carburetor. I would consider doing some mild port work on the heads keeping in mind that my Wag's trail truck days are long behind it and I am currently building it to pull a car hauler trailer. (For little stuff like MG's) That being said this engine still runs strong so I am just going to leave it be...it's been a very livable engine. AMC V8's can be made into good revving engines...they are made out of the higher nickle iron that Ford and GM reserved for their high output stuff. They also have bigger fasteners holding the bottom end together than Ford and GM stuff. So you can go big cam, big ports, forged crank, forged rods, forged pistons, big compression, big open headers, wind it up to 7000 RPM and then you have to find a car to put it in. (Tribute Trans Am Javelin like Mark Donohue drove for Roger Penske in the early 70's?) So in Summary: Flowmasters = Awesome, Factory Exhaust Manifolds + good fasteners = no leaks, AMC V8 = good motor for many different applications (so long as you don't find carburetors too primitive) Mark 81 Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:02:43 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: exhaust detail It's not coming out of my pocket, but most of those pipes come from the same place now so there isn't much difference. From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: exhaust detail OK so I'm seeing AutoZone Maremont exhaust Y pipes for $109. But the OReilly Wagner Y pipe is $144. I wonder what the difference is in a bent pipe. Can only imagine 2 things. 1. The pipe gauge or wall thickness. 2. The quality of the weld at the connection for the left pipe. Neither dealer can tell me what their mfg. spec is for the wall thickness. But I know Autozone parts can be wishy washy, I've been buying them for years. Wondering in this case tho, why should I pay more at O'Reilly or anywhere else for a pipe? Anyone? (with apologies to Jim...for most stuff I do get at NAPA but in this case, heck, it's just a pipe...) JeepNut ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:08:19 -0700 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Header install tips? Stock AMC manifolds were actually awarded some honor in '72 for flow and performance. Unless you are running a high RPM race, going more than 10% larger than stock diameter will take away your bottom end and takeoff power. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:34:05 -0700 > From: thejeepnut-at-yahoo.com > Subject: Re: fsj: Header install tips? > To: fsj-at-digest.net > > Appreciate the feedback one and all. Sage advice it sounds like to me. I'll > spend that money elsewhere I'm sure. > > Talked to a guy at a shop here in town. > Says he used to race a Javelin w/ a 401 and actually got WORSE times when he > went to a 3" exhaust. (and was shocked) Agrees that the OEM manifolds move > air just fine and recommended that since I'm interested more in torque than > H/P, to stay with 2.5" all the way out with a nice Flowmaster in the middle. > Sounds like a plan unless good arguments can be made to the contrary. > > JeepNut > ---------------------------------------------------------- > '92 Cherokee > Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of > the grandkids in 2009 -at- 270K > miles.... > '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. > '87 Street > Comanche #24/100. In storage. > '88 Grand Wagoneer > - '81 AMC 360 -.030 over- > Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, > TFI System upgrade, TF727 -mild kit- > NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- > B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, stainless > extended brake lines, > ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15 > 14 > Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Registered Linux > user #287453 > > > --- On Mon, 8/30/10, john wrote: > > > From: > john > > Subject: Re: fsj: Header install tips? > > To: "Dan > Black" > > Cc: "Full Size Jeeps" > > Date: > Monday, August 30, 2010, 1:29 AM > > yes, there were redundancies... and > > > you're right, probably closer > > to 3,500 rpm... maybe a tad lower, but still, > well above > > peak torque, > > and not all headers are the same... but then again > I've > > usually done > > stuff on custom swaps... > > > > no matter what, headers > aren't worth the trouble. > > > > john > > > > > > > > ----- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where > > Jeeps don't rust, they mold > > > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > > si vis pacem, para bellum > > > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Dan Black wrote: > > > > # On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 22:47, > john > > wrote: > > # > you don't want headers... > > # > > > > # > 1) they create additional heat in the engine bay > > # > > # Umm, maybe, > but I never had any problems. > > # > > # > 2) they work loose unless you spend > money on > > aircraft fasteners > > # > > # Yes. And that's a pain. > > # > > # > > 3) they create additional noise > > # > > # Yeah, that's part of the point for > some of us. > > ;) But it's not much > > # different. > > # > > # > 4) they > really don't do much until you get to > > around 4,000 rpm > > # > > # Meh, I'd > say lower than that, but they didn't make as > > big a difference > > # as I > expected and hoped. > > # > > # > 5) stock manifolds help develop torque at the > lower > > rpms > > # > > # This is essentially part of point #4. > > # > > # > 6) > stock manifolds require only occassional > > tightening > > # > > # This is > essentially part of point #2. > > # > > # > 7) stock manifolds don't add as > much heat to the > > engine bay > > # > > # This _is_ point #1. > > # > > # > 8) > stock manifolds do not interfere with steering > > # > > # Huh? Neither do my > headers. > > # > > # > 9) stock manifolds solve the problem of connecting > > > both sides. > > # > > # You have the same issue with manifolds or headers. > > > If you get stock > > # manifolds, then you can use the stock crossover, but you > > can also get > > # the proper crossover / y-pipe for the headers. I > > got a > kit -- IIRC, > > # Edelbrock -- that worked just fine. > > # > > # > If you want > to uncork the engine a bit, go with a > > 3" exhaust > > # > after the collector > and get a three chamber > > flowmaster... the > > # > dynaflows are noisy and > rattle... a two chamber > > flowmaster would > > # > be too noisy. > > # > > # > IIRC, I got the Borla XR1 muffler and some high-flow > > cat. Each was > > # > probably $150 or so at Summit. Both were 3" input > > and output. (The > > # > headers go through a Y that ends with a 2.5" diameter, > > so there's a > > # > section to go from the 2.5" to 3" -- then it's 3" all > > the way back.) > > # > Everything from the cat back is stainless, and it > > definitely lasted > > # > longer. > > # > > # > even a 2.5" exhaust system will work well... you > > could > run a dual > > # > exhaust setup, but a large single exhaust works as > > well > and is less > > # > complicated on a 4x4. > > # > > # Yeah, getting around the > fuel tank would be > > annoying. I considered > > # that briefly. > > # > > # > a > good ignition system, a nice edelbrock performer > > intake and 1406 > > # > with > a nice 3" exhaust will work nicely for you... > > on my '81 I got it up > > # > > to ALMOST 13 mpg that way. :) > > # > > # I'd second that. I don't think > _all_ John's > > reasons were valid, and > > # some only count as one point, but > the headers really > > aren't worth the > > # hassle of re-tightening them all > the time. > > # > > # Either way, though, I'd use copper gaskets (for the > > > manifolds or > > # headers) as long as you have them off anyway. > > Those > things rock. > > # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 06:50:14 -0400 From: "Neal Hoover" Subject: Re: fsj: Header install tips? you guys are killin' me on the header talk. over the many years i've been building my j-truck (yet to be on the road even once and bought it as a project vehicle), it's had a set of Hedman headers on it. they came on it that way so that's the way it sits. i even wrapped them with the fancy silicone header wrap to keep under-hood temps down after i rebuilt the motor. the truck is (still) sitting in the garage awaiting my next time slot to work on it to completion. so, what i'm hearing is that it would be well worth my time to take the headers off of it and discard them (or sell them to someone who *really* wants them) and slap on some stockers? f'real? that being the case, where would i go about getting some good 'ole stock AMC exhaust manifolds for my j-truck that hasn't been on the road yet? Neal A. Hoover Project '76 J-10 Project '96 XJ http://community.webshots.com/user/proj96xj - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Blair" To: ; "local Jeep list" Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:08 AM Subject: RE: fsj: Header install tips? > Stock AMC manifolds were actually awarded some honor in '72 for flow and > performance. Unless you are running a high RPM race, going more than 10% > larger than stock diameter will take away your bottom end and takeoff > power. > > Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 > > > > >> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:34:05 -0700 >> From: thejeepnut-at-yahoo.com >> Subject: Re: fsj: Header install tips? >> To: fsj-at-digest.net >> >> Appreciate the feedback one and all. Sage advice it sounds like to me. > I'll >> spend that money elsewhere I'm sure. >> >> Talked to a guy at a shop here in town. >> Says he used to race a Javelin w/ a 401 and actually got WORSE times when > he >> went to a 3" exhaust. (and was shocked) Agrees that the OEM manifolds >> move >> air just fine and recommended that since I'm interested more in torque >> than >> H/P, to stay with 2.5" all the way out with a nice Flowmaster in the > middle. >> Sounds like a plan unless good arguments can be made to the contrary. >> >> JeepNut >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> '92 Cherokee >> Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of >> the grandkids in 2009 -at- 270K >> miles.... >> '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. >> '87 Street >> Comanche #24/100. In storage. >> '88 Grand Wagoneer >> - '81 AMC 360 -.030 over- >> Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, >> TFI System upgrade, TF727 -mild kit- >> NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- >> B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, stainless >> extended brake lines, >> ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15 >> 14 >> Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> Registered Linux >> user #287453 >> >> >> --- On Mon, 8/30/10, john wrote: >> >> > From: >> john >> > Subject: Re: fsj: Header install tips? >> > To: "Dan >> Black" >> > Cc: "Full Size Jeeps" >> > Date: >> Monday, August 30, 2010, 1:29 AM >> > yes, there were redundancies... and >> > >> you're right, probably closer >> > to 3,500 rpm... maybe a tad lower, but still, >> well above >> > peak torque, >> > and not all headers are the same... but then again >> I've >> > usually done >> > stuff on custom swaps... >> > >> > no matter what, headers >> aren't worth the trouble. >> > >> > john >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >> Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where >> > Jeeps don't rust, they mold >> > >> http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 >> > si vis pacem, para bellum >> > >> http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >> > >> > On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Dan Black wrote: >> > >> > # On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 22:47, >> john >> > wrote: >> > # > you don't want headers... >> > # > >> > >> # > 1) they create additional heat in the engine bay >> > # >> > # Umm, maybe, >> but I never had any problems. >> > # >> > # > 2) they work loose unless you spend >> money on >> > aircraft fasteners >> > # >> > # Yes. And that's a pain. >> > # >> > # > >> 3) they create additional noise >> > # >> > # Yeah, that's part of the point for >> some of us. >> > ;) But it's not much >> > # different. >> > # >> > # > 4) they >> really don't do much until you get to >> > around 4,000 rpm >> > # >> > # Meh, I'd >> say lower than that, but they didn't make as >> > big a difference >> > # as I >> expected and hoped. >> > # >> > # > 5) stock manifolds help develop torque at the >> lower >> > rpms >> > # >> > # This is essentially part of point #4. >> > # >> > # > 6) >> stock manifolds require only occassional >> > tightening >> > # >> > # This is >> essentially part of point #2. >> > # >> > # > 7) stock manifolds don't add as >> much heat to the >> > engine bay >> > # >> > # This _is_ point #1. >> > # >> > # > 8) >> stock manifolds do not interfere with steering >> > # >> > # Huh? Neither do my >> headers. >> > # >> > # > 9) stock manifolds solve the problem of connecting >> > >> both sides. >> > # >> > # You have the same issue with manifolds or headers. >> > >> If you get stock >> > # manifolds, then you can use the stock crossover, but you >> > can also get >> > # the proper crossover / y-pipe for the headers. I >> > got a >> kit -- IIRC, >> > # Edelbrock -- that worked just fine. >> > # >> > # > If you want >> to uncork the engine a bit, go with a >> > 3" exhaust >> > # > after the collector >> and get a three chamber >> > flowmaster... the >> > # > dynaflows are noisy and >> rattle... a two chamber >> > flowmaster would >> > # > be too noisy. >> > # >> > # >> IIRC, I got the Borla XR1 muffler and some high-flow >> > cat. Each was >> > # >> probably $150 or so at Summit. Both were 3" input >> > and output. (The >> > # >> headers go through a Y that ends with a 2.5" diameter, >> > so there's a >> > # >> section to go from the 2.5" to 3" -- then it's 3" all >> > the way back.) >> > # >> Everything from the cat back is stainless, and it >> > definitely lasted >> > # >> longer. >> > # >> > # > even a 2.5" exhaust system will work well... you >> > could >> run a dual >> > # > exhaust setup, but a large single exhaust works as >> > well >> and is less >> > # > complicated on a 4x4. >> > # >> > # Yeah, getting around the >> fuel tank would be >> > annoying. I considered >> > # that briefly. >> > # >> > # > a >> good ignition system, a nice edelbrock performer >> > intake and 1406 >> > # > with >> a nice 3" exhaust will work nicely for you... >> > on my '81 I got it up >> > # > >> to ALMOST 13 mpg that way. :) >> > # >> > # I'd second that. I don't think >> _all_ John's >> > reasons were valid, and >> > # some only count as one point, but >> the headers really >> > aren't worth the >> > # hassle of re-tightening them all >> the time. >> > # >> > # Either way, though, I'd use copper gaskets (for the >> > >> manifolds or >> > # headers) as long as you have them off anyway. >> > Those >> things rock. >> > # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3620 **************************