From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Jan 3 23:36:37 2011 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, January 4 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3676 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM RE: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM fsj: new to me 258 FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 16:04:33 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM used to be able to find shop manuals at the public library... haven't been to one in years, no idea what's available. typical factory manuals run around $100, one time fee, and they resell pretty easily... on ebay one can often find PDF versions of the shop manuals from $5 to $50. I purchased a good quality photo copy of a 1981 Jeep shop manual, I just sold it on ebay, but before I shipped it I scanned it into PDF format... thinking of doing that to a few more, but it's a time consuming process... I wonder if there are places that could do it for you... and of course wonder if it's ok to resell such copies... I don't think the dealerships care about the older models. I suspect that if you made copies of things that were out of print or even 5 years or older they'd leave you alone. Any thoughts from the collective on this? I wonder about the copies of pdf manuals I've already purchased, but since I needed the info I bought them anyway... just wondering if I could sell copies as well. :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 3 Jan 2011, Troy Phagan wrote: # My guess is that $20.00 Alldata is a one vehicle/model specific only # subscription good for one year. (You can get similar info at the autozone # website.) In such case, I'd go with the FSM. # Last time I had full All Data it was $135+ a month. (Several years ago.) # It was good for a shop to have access to it sometimes, but we dropped it # because it was often too 'generic' and expensive for what we got out of it. # In my opinion, it was better than like a Haynes or Chilton's, but not as good # as FSM. # # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 19:09:52 -0800 (PST) From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM WOW you SCANNED a FSM??? Man that is hundreds of pages, or am I misunderstanding something? I've seen (and have) lots of manuals I've collected (thanks many times Ol' Tom) that were in .pdf format. I just assumed someone got electronic copies. I cannot fathom how one could scan front and back that many pages... how many months does that take? LOL Very impressed. lol... JeepNut - ---------------------------------------------------------- '92 Cherokee Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of the grandkids in 2009 -at- 270K miles.... '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. '87 Street Comanche #24/100. In storage. '88 Grand Wagoneer - '81 AMC 360 -.030 over- Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, TFI System upgrade, TF727 -mild kit- NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, stainless extended brake lines, ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15 14 Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 - --- On Mon, 1/3/11, john wrote: From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM To: "Troy Phagan" Cc: fsj-at-digest.net Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 6:04 PM used to be able to find shop manuals at the public library... haven't been to one in years, no idea what's available. typical factory manuals run around $100, one time fee, and they resell pretty easily... on ebay one can often find PDF versions of the shop manuals from $5 to $50. I purchased a good quality photo copy of a 1981 Jeep shop manual, I just sold it on ebay, but before I shipped it I scanned it into PDF format... thinking of doing that to a few more, but it's a time consuming process... I wonder if there are places that could do it for you... and of course wonder if it's ok to resell such copies... I don't think the dealerships care about the older models. I suspect that if you made copies of things that were out of print or even 5 years or older they'd leave you alone. Any thoughts from the collective on this? I wonder about the copies of pdf manuals I've already purchased, but since I needed the info I bought them anyway... just wondering if I could sell copies as well. :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 3 Jan 2011, Troy Phagan wrote: # My guess is that $20.00 Alldata is a one vehicle/model specific only # subscription good for one year. (You can get similar info at the autozone # website.) In such case, I'd go with the FSM. # Last time I had full All Data it was $135+ a month. (Several years ago.) # It was good for a shop to have access to it sometimes, but we dropped it # because it was often too 'generic' and expensive for what we got out of it. # In my opinion, it was better than like a Haynes or Chilton's, but not as good # as FSM. # # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 19:12:09 -0800 (PST) From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM THERE's the kind of comparative feedback I was really looking for... Thanks Troy. Guess I'll order up that set of FSMs. Oh and the heater seemingly has started working perfectly well now of it's own accord.... for how long... who knows... LOL JeepNut - ---------------------------------------------------------- '92 Cherokee Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of the grandkids in 2009 -at- 270K miles.... '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. '87 Street Comanche #24/100. In storage. '88 Grand Wagoneer - '81 AMC 360 -.030 over- Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, TFI System upgrade, TF727 -mild kit- NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, stainless extended brake lines, ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15 14 Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. - ---------------------------------------------------------- Registered Linux user #287453 - --- On Mon, 1/3/11, Troy Phagan wrote: From: Troy Phagan Subject: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM To: fsj-at-digest.net Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 11:10 AM My guess is that $20.00 Alldata is a one vehicle/model specific only subscription good for one year. (You can get similar info at the autozone website.) In such case, I'd go with the FSM. Last time I had full All Data it was $135+ a month. (Several years ago.) It was good for a shop to have access to it sometimes, but we dropped it because it was often too 'generic' and expensive for what we got out of it. In my opinion, it was better than like a Haynes or Chilton's, but not as good as FSM. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 19:20:09 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM it was a photocopy, doublesided and in a loose-leaf binder... just fed it to the machine, and it had s/w to convert to jpg or pdf... took me a few hours walking back and forth with sections while doing other stuff... it's the 1981 jeep manual... how much y'all willing to pay for a copy? it consists of several smaller pdfs... john On 1/3/2011 7:09 PM, JeepNut wrote: > WOW you SCANNED a FSM??? Man that is hundreds of pages, or am I > misunderstanding something? > I've seen (and have) lots of manuals I've collected (thanks many times Ol' > Tom) that were in .pdf format. I just assumed someone got electronic copies. > I cannot fathom how one could scan front and back that many pages... how many > months does that take? LOL Very impressed. lol... > > > JeepNut > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > '92 Cherokee Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of > > the grandkids in 2009 -at- 270K miles.... > > '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. > > '87 Street Comanche #24/100. In storage. > > '88 Grand Wagoneer > > - '81 AMC 360 -.030 over- Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, > > TFI System upgrade, TF727 -mild kit- NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- > > B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, stainless extended brake lines, > > ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15 > > 14 Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Registered Linux user #287453 > > --- On Mon, 1/3/11, john wrote: > > From: john > Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM > To: "Troy Phagan" > Cc: fsj-at-digest.net > Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 6:04 PM > > used to be able to find shop manuals at the public library... haven't > been to one in years, no idea what's available. > > typical factory manuals run around $100, one time fee, and they resell > pretty easily... on ebay one can often find PDF versions of the > shop manuals from $5 to $50. > > I purchased a good quality photo copy of a 1981 Jeep shop manual, > I just sold it on ebay, but before I shipped it I scanned it into > PDF format... thinking of doing that to a few more, but it's a time > consuming process... I wonder if there are places that could do it > for you... and of course wonder if it's ok to resell such copies... > I don't think the dealerships care about the older models. I suspect > that if you made copies of things that were out of print or even > 5 years or older they'd leave you alone. Any thoughts from the collective > on this? > > I wonder about the copies of pdf manuals I've already purchased, but since > I needed the info I bought them anyway... just wondering if I could sell > copies as well. :) > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Mon, 3 Jan 2011, Troy Phagan wrote: > > # My guess is that $20.00 Alldata is a one vehicle/model specific only > # subscription good for one year. (You can get similar info at the autozone > # website.) In such case, I'd go with the FSM. > # Last time I had full All Data it was $135+ a month. (Several years > ago.) > # It was good for a shop to have access to it sometimes, but we dropped it > # because it was often too 'generic' and expensive for what we got out of > it. > # In my opinion, it was better than like a Haynes or Chilton's, but not as > good > # as FSM. > # > # > - -- ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 19:20:50 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM based on what I saw working with a bentley and all-data on my TDI, the bentley was clearly as good, or better than the all-data... On 1/3/2011 7:12 PM, JeepNut wrote: > THERE's the kind of comparative feedback I was really looking for... > Thanks > Troy. Guess I'll order up that set of FSMs. > > Oh and the heater seemingly has > started working perfectly well now of it's own accord.... for how long... who > knows... LOL > > > JeepNut > ---------------------------------------------------------- > '92 Cherokee > Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of > the grandkids in 2009 -at- 270K > miles.... > '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. > '87 Street > Comanche #24/100. In storage. > '88 Grand Wagoneer > - '81 AMC 360 -.030 over- > Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, > TFI System upgrade, TF727 -mild kit- > NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- > B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, stainless > extended brake lines, > ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15 > 14 > Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Registered Linux > user #287453 > > --- On Mon, 1/3/11, Troy Phagan wrote: > > From: > Troy Phagan > Subject: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM > To: > fsj-at-digest.net > Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 11:10 AM > > My guess is that > $20.00 Alldata is a one vehicle/model specific only subscription good for one > year. (You can get similar info at the autozone website.) In such case, I'd > go with the FSM. > Last time I had full All Data it was $135+ a month. > (Several years ago.) It was good for a shop to have access to it sometimes, > but we dropped it because it was often too 'generic' and expensive for what we > got out of it. In my opinion, it was better than like a Haynes or Chilton's, > but not as good as FSM. > - -- ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 19:39:06 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Loxtercamp Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM When I got my E30 BMW, I took a look at the FSM and it was in German. The dealership offered the Robert Bentley manual so I bought it. It was fabulous...they do a nice job. It was also the manual that I found in the shops I brought my car to (when I had to...) Greg ________________________________ From: john To: JeepNut Cc: FSJ List Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 9:20:50 PM Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM based on what I saw working with a bentley and all-data on my TDI, the bentley was clearly as good, or better than the all-data... On 1/3/2011 7:12 PM, JeepNut wrote: > THERE's the kind of comparative feedback I was really looking for... > Thanks > Troy. Guess I'll order up that set of FSMs. > > Oh and the heater seemingly has > started working perfectly well now of it's own accord.... for how long... who > knows... LOL > > > JeepNut > ---------------------------------------------------------- > '92 Cherokee > Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of > the grandkids in 2009 -at- 270K > miles.... > '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. > '87 Street > Comanche #24/100. In storage. > '88 Grand Wagoneer > - '81 AMC 360 -.030 over- > Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, > TFI System upgrade, TF727 -mild kit- > NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- > B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, stainless > extended brake lines, > ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15 > 14 > Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Registered Linux > user #287453 > > --- On Mon, 1/3/11, Troy Phagan wrote: > > From: > Troy Phagan > Subject: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM > To: > fsj-at-digest.net > Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 11:10 AM > > My guess is that > $20.00 Alldata is a one vehicle/model specific only subscription good for one > year. (You can get similar info at the autozone website.) In such case, I'd > go with the FSM. > Last time I had full All Data it was $135+ a month. > (Several years ago.) It was good for a shop to have access to it sometimes, > but we dropped it because it was often too 'generic' and expensive for what we > got out of it. In my opinion, it was better than like a Haynes or Chilton's, > but not as good as FSM. > - -- ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 20:01:52 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM I wonder what other manuals Bentley does... I have two right now, one for older gas VWs and the one for my TDI. On 1/3/2011 7:39 PM, Greg Loxtercamp wrote: > When I got my E30 BMW, I took a look at the FSM and it was in German. The > dealership offered the Robert Bentley manual so I bought it. It was > fabulous...they do a nice job. It was also the manual that I found in the shops > I brought my car to (when I had to...) > > Greg > > > > ________________________________ > From: john > To: JeepNut > Cc: FSJ List > Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 9:20:50 PM > Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM > > based on what I saw working with a bentley and all-data on my TDI, the bentley > was > clearly as good, or better than the all-data... > > On 1/3/2011 7:12 PM, JeepNut wrote: >> THERE's the kind of comparative feedback I was really looking for... >> Thanks >> Troy. Guess I'll order up that set of FSMs. >> >> Oh and the heater seemingly has >> started working perfectly well now of it's own accord.... for how long... who >> knows... LOL >> >> >> JeepNut >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> '92 Cherokee >> Laredo, bought new, an heirloom. Passed to one of >> the grandkids in 2009 -at- 270K >> miles.... >> '04 Grand Cherokee Laredo. Bone stock. It's hers. >> '87 Street >> Comanche #24/100. In storage. >> '88 Grand Wagoneer >> - '81 AMC 360 -.030 over- >> Edelbrock Performer/1400 600cfm 4bbl, >> TFI System upgrade, TF727 -mild kit- >> NP229, D44's F/R -3:31- >> B.J.'s Offroad 6" kit/ drop pittman, stainless >> extended brake lines, >> ProComp 3000 shocks, Maxxis Buckshot 33x12.5x15 >> 14 >> Spoke OEM Wagonwheels, IPF 65/55 lamps...and then some. >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> Registered Linux >> user #287453 >> >> --- On Mon, 1/3/11, Troy Phagan wrote: >> >> From: >> Troy Phagan >> Subject: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM >> To: >> fsj-at-digest.net >> Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 11:10 AM >> >> My guess is that >> $20.00 Alldata is a one vehicle/model specific only subscription good for one >> year. (You can get similar info at the autozone website.) In such case, I'd >> go with the FSM. >> Last time I had full All Data it was $135+ a month. >> (Several years ago.) It was good for a shop to have access to it sometimes, >> but we dropped it because it was often too 'generic' and expensive for what we >> got out of it. In my opinion, it was better than like a Haynes or Chilton's, >> but not as good as FSM. >> - -- ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 22:40:47 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM Somewhere around here I have the MR253 and an '84 electrical diagram (GW and Jtruck) that I bought new before Chrysler ended them. I posted them for sale for a bit about 10 years ago, but they were still available new back then (these are like new. The diagram is still in the wrapper and I have a greasy shop copy of the MR253 for those rare times I need it) > Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 16:04:33 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: tsp-at-crptruck.com > CC: fsj-at-digest.net > Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Alldata vs. FSM > > used to be able to find shop manuals at the public library... haven't > been to one in years, no idea what's available. > > typical factory manuals run around $100, one time fee, and they resell > pretty easily... on ebay one can often find PDF versions of the > shop manuals from $5 to $50. > > I purchased a good quality photo copy of a 1981 Jeep shop manual, > I just sold it on ebay, but before I shipped it I scanned it into > PDF format... thinking of doing that to a few more, but it's a time > consuming process... I wonder if there are places that could do it > for you... and of course wonder if it's ok to resell such copies... > I don't think the dealerships care about the older models. I suspect > that if you made copies of things that were out of print or even > 5 years or older they'd leave you alone. Any thoughts from the collective > on this? > > I wonder about the copies of pdf manuals I've already purchased, but since > I needed the info I bought them anyway... just wondering if I could sell > copies as well. :) > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Mon, 3 Jan 2011, Troy Phagan wrote: > > # My guess is that $20.00 Alldata is a one vehicle/model specific only > # subscription good for one year. (You can get similar info at the autozone > # website.) In such case, I'd go with the FSM. > # Last time I had full All Data it was $135+ a month. (Several years ago.) > # It was good for a shop to have access to it sometimes, but we dropped it > # because it was often too 'generic' and expensive for what we got out of it. > # In my opinion, it was better than like a Haynes or Chilton's, but not as good > # as FSM. > # > # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 01:17:22 -0600 From: Kim Tesar Subject: fsj: new to me 258 Since my engine has low oil pressure (good at start up but idles at about 5 psi when hot) and I hear a rod knock, and I don't feel like screwing up a rear main seal replacement/oil pan seal with the engine in the truck, and I want to start on a stroker project, and it was cheap, I bought a used (90K) 258 from an 81 Scrambler to keep the J10 moving while I tear into the old engine. So I'm finding things out about this engine, like, oh, nice aluminum valve cover, oh, not so nice welding job on the side of the head around one of the valve cover bolt bores. Looks like someone helicoiled several of the valve cover bolt bores?? Weird. Missing water pump, fuel pump, oil pump, oil filter connector, harmonic dampener, flywheel, oil pan, oil pump pickup, timing cover, but has intake/exhaust manifolds, carb, distributor, thermostat housing, oil filter bypass assembly.... It also needs a rear main seal, but at least it's on an engine stand. I put some Marvel Mystery oil in the cylinders, and oil on the pushrods and valve stems and cranked it around several times, seems pretty tight in the cylinders. Watch out, the camshaft wanted to walk out the front of the engine! 3/4 inch side to side play in the timing chain, I think i'll replace that. I am wondering a few things.... Should i be able to move the rod journals back and forth and hear a click ? No oil on these. I may remove the rod from the journal with the loudest click and measure the crankshaft. Should the rockers be pretty loose when valve springs are uncompressed? No oil pressure on the lifters at the moment. Any suggestions on an oil pump? Probably looking at the Mopar Hi Vol, that can be used for stroker later.... Any concerns using the heavier flywheel(79) on the lighter crankshaft (81)? Do the alternator and power steering mount the same on an 81 head as on a 79 head? What little, tiny exhaust ports! No wonder the 4.0 can flow better.... - - Landon Limping 79 j10 ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3676 **************************