From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Mon Jan 10 17:01:51 2011 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, January 11 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3681 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: car colors Re: fsj: re: programmers fsj: Re: [db] '86 Cherokee Turbo Diesel... fsj: Re: car colors RE: fsj: Re: car colors fsj: Spark plugs RE: fsj: car colors fsj: spark plugs FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 12:08:44 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: car colors On Mon, 10 Jan 2011, Wes Molsberry wrote: # Never mind the details.....it's silver....I hate silver cars. silver is superb... or at least tolerable... unless it's really been abused... (like this xj: http://wagoneers.com/tmp/XJ-turboDiesel-1986/) I'm not convinced that isn't frost, or dirt... might take a look with my on, hoping that he'll replace 2 of his 3 cars with the Diesel xj, so he'll just have that and his 300D. the '85 GW and the '90 929 could go away and we will be able to navigate our driveway with one less obstacle... only two, maybe three more years before he gets his degree... :) my wj, vw, 300d and soon my j10 will be some variation of gray/silver... it's a forgiving color... I still like light ivory creme, light yellow or tan... my wife and friends object... I don't like white, something about a white jeep or car when it starts getting old that just doesn't look right... not crazy about burgundy either... had less than good experiences with a few chevies and jeeps that were that color. although I did have a '67 mustang that color, that was a good one... did 140 mph on the autobahn with it... have a friend who is quite hard over on green... something about a car that color falling on his head during an earthquake or something... ;) I'm not a fan of red either... but when you buy only used cars you usually don't have a choice... repainting is expensive and never really produces the quality you'd expect, unless you really spend a lot... to get the paint job I'd want it would cost many times more than what I would be able to buy the vehicle for... :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 12:19:22 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: re: programmers this was a great response Troy. Very good understanding of what's behind them and provides a lot of good advice... there's always trade offs when tweaking... sometimes those trade offs can be expensive. on one TDI forum they say to disable the EGR in the computer... another forum says to block it off and eliminate the error code... turns out the one saying to change the computer ends up messing with the mass air flow and hurts economy.... the other group doesn't report any bad side effects... egr's on Diesels are a very bad idea... http://johnmeister.com/DIESELS/tdi/tdi-clean-intake/P1120756_2010-09-04.jpg ref: my 4.7L V8 in the WJ... got input from a friend saying to use NGK plugs, hotter range, he suggested: NGK BKR5E-11 any thoughts, suggestions, confirmations? The WJ has been getting horrible mileage in town, but is rarely used and then to haul 4,000lbs of j10 hydraulic dump trailer with topsoil in it... we're talking 10-11mpg... used to get 14 mpg. it will do 21 mpg on the freeway when out of this area. ;) 18-19mpg through the rockies... last tune up was 2006, but that was less than 20, maybe 30K ago... how often are we supposed to change spark plugs (asks Diesel John... ;) ... this is my only gas powered rig, except the lawnmower... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 10 Jan 2011, Troy Phagan wrote: # Sorry, I wasn't paying much attention to the earlier discussions regarding # programmers and tuners. I happen to sell several brands, please send me any # further questions if interested. # # The item in question was a Hypertech. I do sell those on occasion, but I # sell other brands more frequently. I have no personal experience with the # tuners on a Jeep. None of ours are new enough to use programmers... heh. # # Superchips makes a tuner for the 4.0, and also Superchips makes a tuner for # the 4.7 WJ (Superchips part number 3875) Go to the superchips.com website # and do Y-M-M to verify the PN and see the specs. # # If buying new, for the money I'd skip the 'mileage only' tuners and get the # standard tuners. (FlashPaq not just MileasgeXS) It's a minor price upgrade # and the "performance tuners" also include the "mileage tuners" features and # programming but not vice-versa. Often, people tell me they wind up using # the "performance tune" to get the best mileage on the HWY. Any gains in the # city are very difficult to substantiate or expect due to random variables. # # I normally sell to customers who drive full size pickups, gas and diesel, # with larger motors. However, when I do sell chips/ tuners/programmers to # customers with smaller vehicles and engines, I generally warn them that they # are not gaining much because the smaller displacement motors can only do so # much. Most GAS tuners gain a very modest percentage of # efficiency/performance; on a smaller engine there is only so much to work # with. # # On all the gas tuners that I know of, you normally choose an Octane quality # of fuel that you use, and then a "Towing/Economy" or a "Performance" tune # suitable to that octane. All the chip advertisements are normally for 91+ # Octane with the "Performance" tune. (Most HP claims are at very high RPM) # Obviously, it's mostly a matter of ignition timing and fuel map curves. # # The way I explain to customers is that the OEM engineers leave a little room # in computer for "idiot proof" unforeseen circumstances. They don't know if # you will be at sea level with 91 octane, or at 8,000 ft using 85 octane. The # tuners nudge the fuel/ ignition maps and ask you to make a commitment to a # minimum octane fuel to squeak out a little bit more efficiency. That # efficiency can be used for more power or more mileage; depending on the tune # and the driver. # # None of the tuner manufactures will promise MPG gains; it is too dependent on # driver habits and real world conditions. They CAN hook a vehicle to a dyno # in a lab-like environment and show repeatable results on chart for that, # though. # # Most commonly, customers report improved throttle response, and occasional # minor gains in MPG if consciously driven for MPG, primarily on the HWY. The # throttle response is helpful for those towing / looking for power because you # might not gain much total HP, but the engine revs better, creating a better # driving experience. I ask customers if the other features of the tuners such # as: tire size corrections / View & clear DTC's, Rev Limiter & Speed Governor # restriction editing and so forth are of benefit to them. If they are NOT, # they might be disappointed because the mileage/HP gains are so slight. If # you look at the over-all functionality of the devices, however, it can be a # good fit for many people. # # For Jeep engines, and more info try: # http://www.edgeproducts.com (4.0 only, I think.) # http://www.superchips.com (Various, widest range of engine coverage.) # http://www.hypertech.com/ (4.0 only, I think; but may have # products for Hemi's) # http://www.bullydog.com (Hemi only, I think) # http://www.diablosport.com (Hemi for sure, possibly others are # available.) # # Also not mentioned are all the OBD2 monitoring devices available; they are # not "tuners" and do not actually edit any settings but they allow for # monitoring of fuel consumption, throttle position, and other parameters of # interest in real time that can give driver feedback. BullyDog has the # WatchDog "driving coach" which gives a real-time estimation of fuel usage and # offers suggestions for better driver technique and feedback for better MPG. # I have not used any of these products, but mention it for those who may be # curious. It's like driving around with a code reader / scan tool attached # all the time. There is an MSD product called "Dash Hawk" that does this, and # the Edge "Insight", etc. # # Regards, # Troy # # tsp-at-crptruck.com # # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 12:43:42 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [db] '86 Cherokee Turbo Diesel... On Mon, 10 Jan 2011, Alec Cordova wrote: # You already did an XJ with the factory diesel, so you should know # better than to do it again. # Unless the automatic transmission is as good a match for that engine # as the pairing in an 85 300D, performance will be even worse than what # you previously had, and I doubt that thing would be capable of towing # much of anything. # # Even if it means a Frankendiesel, you're probably much better off # putting a more common (in the US) diesel into an XJ, both in terms of # livability and even resale. # # Unless you just want another one or two year project that you'll sell, # I don't see this meeting your long term needs. # Alec # On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:58 PM, john wrote: # > SHOULD I PASS ON THIS PROJECT? # > http://wagoneers.com/tmp/XJ-turboDiesel-1986/ you're right... 0 to 60 was around 19 seconds with the 5 speed, if you tried to tow a shadow you'd almost have to put the transfer case in low range to get moving... 1st gear was too tall... I had an 800lb trailer... if I had a load in it I literally had to use low range to get it rolling on an incline, and then try to pop it into high range once rolling... towed a mazda pickup on a small trailer I had built... oy vay... that was fun... not... another time I got a bunch of something from a friend who lived on a lake, long straight steep paved driveway... had to run up it in low range... the 2.1L TD got 26 in town, 32 on the freeway, would cruise nicely at 70 mph... but it needed a granny low to get moving if it was loaded... and of course the rubber band needed to be changed every 20k... and they used o-rings instead of gaskets so the thing was always springing leaks... and the electrical system on mine was by the french version of the prince of darkness... paris-rhone... went through many alternators... and the manual trans on that thing was horrid... rattled at an idle because the main bearing was loose, the slave cylinder was always leaking on the clutch... and of course the seats had no lumbar support so my 5th was causing me to use a cane... ah yes, the memories... but on the other hand it was brilliant off road, you'd pop that thing in gear on a trail, let the clutch out and it would idle over stuff the wranglers were struggling with... had great range on the open road... was comfortable on trips... drove it all the way down the CA coast... drove it over to Rockport on that nice twisty, windy highway for 30 miles of gentle drifting and curves... handled great... the issues I had with it could be over come... but I can't reengineer age or french flawed designs without starting over... seats can be replaced, but the basic engine is an example of engineering with no safety margin... and you're right... a 904 slushbox behind it would work, but not well, the 904/727s aren't great in jeeps to begin with... y'all are great... love some of the comments... thanx all for the therapy session... and mental exercise... I plan on looking at it anyway... just to see it... won't pay a grand for it, but I have a feeling that if it looks recoverable at all I may make an offer and might even get it... not to build up as a dream daily driver, but just as a fun little project to make a little money and learn a few more things, and rescue yet another jeep... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:23:24 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: car colors my mercedes is smoke silver, held up well, sits outside. the wj is http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/SuperDawg/tonka-paint-demo/ which is one of these: http://www.wjjeeps.com/colors.htm thinking it's 11. Silverstone Metallic because both my '99 and '00 had it. should look good on my J10... tried all these colors: see: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Colors/SuperDawg-experimental-colors.html http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Colors/ color charts from '80-91 for amc/xj/sj there. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 10 Jan 2011, Wes Molsberry wrote: # Not crazy about red either. I read somewhere that red and silver # oxidize far quicker than other colors. Something about metalic oxide # pigment particles in the paint. I like the look of austere metalic # gray colors (as on our 86' BMW 535i). Of course the paint has nearly # completely flaked off the hood and trunk. I like the color of the # paint that remins, however . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:15:26 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: Re: car colors Try out http://paintscratch.com for factory color codes by year make and model. I use it a lot at work to get the codes for customer's cars. > Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:23:24 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: cyberwes-at-qwestoffice.net > Subject: fsj: Re: car colors > > my mercedes is smoke silver, held up well, sits outside. > > the wj is http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/SuperDawg/tonka-paint-demo/ > which is one of these: http://www.wjjeeps.com/colors.htm > > thinking it's 11. Silverstone Metallic because both my '99 and '00 had it. > > should look good on my J10... tried all these colors: > see: http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Colors/SuperDawg-experimental-colors.html > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Colors/ color charts from '80-91 for amc/xj/sj there. > > john > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2011, Wes Molsberry wrote: > > # Not crazy about red either. I read somewhere that red and silver > # oxidize far quicker than other colors. Something about metalic oxide > # pigment particles in the paint. I like the look of austere metalic > # gray colors (as on our 86' BMW 535i). Of course the paint has nearly > # completely flaked off the hood and trunk. I like the color of the > # paint that remins, however . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:23:49 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: fsj: Spark plugs I would do a colder plug because the knock sensor will drop timing back if it pings. I run BKR6EK plugs (commonly used in German cars now instead of Bosch which cause them to fail emissions) ref: my 4.7L V8 in the WJ... got input from a friend saying to use NGK plugs, hotter range, he suggested: NGK BKR5E-11 any thoughts, suggestions, confirmations? The WJ has been getting horrible mileage in town, but is rarely used and then to haul 4,000lbs of j10 hydraulic dump trailer with topsoil in it... we're talking 10-11mpg... used to get 14 mpg. it will do 21 mpg on the freeway when out of this area. ;) 18-19mpg through the rockies... last tune up was 2006, but that was less than 20, maybe 30K ago... how often are we supposed to change spark plugs (asks Diesel John... ;) ... this is my only gas powered rig, except the lawnmower... john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 15:00:00 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: RE: fsj: car colors 16 years ago today in fact. '91 Honda Civic that I had lowered for a customer. He took it for an oil change at Walmart and it clunked when coming off the rack. He left a trail of oil all the way home. He went back and they told him it was too low and that the oil pan had been caved in, which would cost him $800 to repair. He topped off the oil, drove it home and called me. I put it up on axle stands with blocks under the wheels and crawled under. I discovered they hadn't tightened the drain plug, so I torques it correctly. I was looking for any other leaks with the motor running when I heard what sounded like a truck coming up the driveway. I was looking to see what it was when the floor went sideways (Duvall '95 quake) and the car went over. I tried to stop it from falling (I was too far under to get out fast) but couldn't find anything solid enough to grab until it was too late. The tires bounced off the wood blocks, which slowed the descent and most likely saved my life! I screamed and my buddy came running, only to see the back end of his car come through the wood garage door. I had finally found a solid point to lift (probably the axles) and bench pressed the car off me, throwing it away from me at the same time. I sank my heels into the wall (I have a photo of it somewhere) and adrenaline took over. I must've been a sight as I got up with my right eye hanging out of it's socket and blood coming out of my ear. My buddy puked when he saw that and I was so dazed that all I knew was I had to get to the hospital and I tried to drive myself. I was quickly talked out of that and whisked into an ambulance. At the hospital, my doctor happened to be on duty and came to deal with me. He quickly cleaned off my eyeball and popped it back into the socket, which made me feel a little better. They kept me overnight and I overheard the nurses say "poor guy! He's not going to make it". They checked on me every hour and I kept telling them "I'm still here!". I waited a couple days to tell my dad (he'd had a heartattack just a couple months before) but my mom and the rest of my family knew (including my recent girlfriend) I called him up and said "Thanks Dad!" and he said "For what?" and my reply was "For giving me such a hard head!" I was out of the hospital in a short week and mending. I do have proof of brain damage though. I got married for the second time a couple weeks later! (My wife usually pipes up at this point that I got the injury, but she must've been damaged because I was her third husband!) Feb 14th will be our 16th anniversary. PS: that's not the only green car I've had trouble with. Just the worst from a personal injury point of view. A green '73 Buick Le Sabre I bought for $50 cost me $45,000 in legal fees and accident costs in an accident that was not even my fault, but the cop, insurance adjuster and judge were all related to the guy that hit me > Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 12:08:44 -0800 > From: john-at-wagoneers.com > To: cyberwes-at-qwestoffice.net > Subject: fsj: car colors > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2011, Wes Molsberry wrote: > # Never mind the details.....it's silver....I hate silver cars. > > > silver is superb... or at least tolerable... unless it's really been abused... (like this xj: > http://wagoneers.com/tmp/XJ-turboDiesel-1986/) I'm not convinced that isn't frost, or dirt... > might take a look with my on, hoping that he'll replace 2 of his 3 cars with the Diesel xj, > so he'll just have that and his 300D. the '85 GW and the '90 929 could go away and we will > be able to navigate our driveway with one less obstacle... only two, maybe three more years > before he gets his degree... :) > > > my wj, vw, 300d and soon my j10 will be some variation of gray/silver... it's a forgiving > color... I still like light ivory creme, light yellow or tan... my wife and friends object... > > I don't like white, something about a white jeep or car when it starts getting old that just > doesn't look right... > > not crazy about burgundy either... > had less than good experiences with a few chevies and jeeps that were that color. > although I did have a '67 mustang that color, that was a good one... did 140 mph on the autobahn with it... > > have a friend who is quite hard over on green... something about a car that color falling > on his head during an earthquake or something... ;) > > I'm not a fan of red either... but when you buy only used cars you usually don't have a choice... > repainting is expensive and never really produces the quality you'd expect, unless you really spend > a lot... to get the paint job I'd want it would cost many times more than what I would be able > to buy the vehicle for... :) > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:01:00 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: fsj: spark plugs being a hard core Diesel guy I have lost all understanding of spark plugs... but since I still own one vehicle that requires them, and is likely due for the arcane ritual, I'm considering making some changes in the type to see if I can improve economy. I've gotten differing opinions from trusted friends... so I'm quite confused... no need for any conflict resolution, just a better understanding of what the heat ranges do and why they will improve power or economy... I have heard many recommend NGKs... so that will be a given. Dealing with a '99 WJ - Grand Cherokee with a 4.7L V8. I only run the least expensive gasoline available, I think it's 89 octane, or might be 87, whichever is typical at Costco, Shell or Fred Meyer/Safeway/QFC. Operating range altitude is sea level to 650 feet typically, highest elevation likely encountered is 3,500 feet. Typical temperatures here are 40 deg F winter, 70 deg summer, occassional cold snaps/heat waves. why would one use a colder temperature range plug? why would one use a hotter temperature range plug? understand that spark ignition will ping if the flame front is too rapid, causing knock and could even lead to burning holes in the piston... at the same time if the fuel isn't burned up, you're wasting it... this is why Diesel is so superior, the flame front is slower and more complete, but I digress. I've fiddled with temp range on plugs in the past... like 20 years ago when I didn't know better and spent all my time and money messing with gasoline engines... :) Am standing by for a tutorial... :) and hoping to improve the economy in my WJ... because right now it's as bad as a full size jeep... instead of behaving more like an XJ... ;) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3681 **************************