From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sun Mar 27 08:35:04 2011 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Sunday, March 27 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3719 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: Re: [WJ-Grand] math problem fsj: John's stunning fuel economy Re: fsj: John's stunning fuel economy Re: fsj: Re: [WJ-Grand] math problem Re: fsj: A.I.R. pump/stuff needed Re: fsj: John's stunning fuel economy Re: fsj: A.I.R. pump/stuff needed FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 20:09:14 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [WJ-Grand] math problem the 2.72 gears, oversized tires and attaching to the rear bumper of semis and keeping the speed down is what did it... my son knows how to drive for economy, all those physics classes he's been taking at college. ;) even 15 mpg out of an FSJ with a 360 V8 is impressive... couldn't be happier right now... well... could be, but it would involve Diesel... ;) having some issues with the smell of gasoline, especially in spring... will have to work on this thing wearing a respirator... I'm glad Diesel doesn't have that effect on my allergies. :) Propane is even worse though, that smelly stuff they put in there is related to onions... onions and I don't get along so well... I love 'em too... but usually the three days of internal bleeding after eating them keeps me from them for a while... at least I'm becoming more aware of what it is specifically that I'm allergic to, and one other benefit of allergies is an overactive immune system, rarely get sick, but when I do... wham. I'm thinking of swapping rims/tires with my son, but not sure I want to mess with success... just going to fix this thing up so things work, are tight and clean... this isn't just a placeholder, it's an investment. The prices of clean rust free J10s seem to be climbing. I was very willing to drive 200 miles to get this one.. sure there are other rust free J10s locally, but not with a decent paint job. This one is an older maaco job, but still decent looking. john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sat, 26 Mar 2011, Dpjones wrote: # Wow. That is some good mileage. My 2010 F150 w/5.4 V8 and 3.73 gears can only get 17-18mpg on the highway. # # Sent from David Jones' iPhone # # # On Mar 26, 2011, at 8:46, "dave" wrote: # # > I like the 17 mpg better! # > # > IIRC the 4bbl carb can get better gas mileage than the 2bbl. # > # > Of course we know you taught your son how to drive for mpg! ;-) # > # > # > # > later, # > # > dave AKA vwdoc1 # > # > From: WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com [mailto:WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john # > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 3:02 AM # > To: undisclosed-recipients: # > Subject: [WJ-Grand] math problem # > # > # > # > # > # > ok, it's been a long day... and I'm tired... but I'm confusing myself and # > using a computer to do it. # > # > here's the situation... the '83 J10 I just bought has larger tires than stock... # > so the odometer reads less than actually travelled. # > # > my son filled the J10 up in Vancouver, and got nervous in Tacoma (fuel gauge isn't working)... # > so he stopped and topped it off and was surprised that it would only take 7.1 gallons... # > the odometer math was 114.6 miles... but the GPS speed was about 10% off the speedo reading, # > so I used the two addresses from the gas stations on I-5... mapquested... came out to 124.97 miles. # > # > ok, so here's where my feeble math skills cause me some confusion... I think I have the right # > answer, but want to verify... so I can establish the algorithim in excel... # > # > odometer miles ERROR gals mpg cost per gal place & notes # > 19,390.2 start 0.0905 # > purchased in 404 NE 78th st, vancouver, wa - error =(J4/C4)-1 # > # > 19,504.8 114.6 125.0 7.1 17.68 $26.57 $3.76 # > purchased in 8433 south hosmer, tacoma, wa - actual miles: 124.97 # > # > actual miles error factor c4=odometer reading - d3-error factor # > 124.97 0.090488656 =(C4*$D$3)+C4 # > # > so my calculations should be actual reading x error factor + actual reading... right? # > # > to get the error factor I took the mapquest miles/odometer miles - 1... right? # > # > or do I take the difference in the miles, 10.37 miles and divide that by the odometer reading??? # > those miles are off a little bit... don't think that's right and my first formula works out... # > # > if that's the case he didn't get 16.1 mpg, or the 17.71 I first came up with, but 17.68 mpg, # > which is pretty close to an amazing record for a 360 V8... he claims he was drafting semi's # > at 60 (instead of driving at 70mph)... tires were pumped up to near max... # > # > in other news my Jetta got about 48 mpg, I tanked up at the same station but went across # > the columbia into portland, across on the banfield to 205 and down to clackamas, then back # > up 205/I-5... cruise set at the speed limit and if needed I got on it to get around congestion... # > # > pictures to follow... will be at http://fotomeister.us/2011/03-Mar-25-J10 took some night shots... # > # > It sure was nice to drive a J10 again... really miss superdawg... and I think my son will buy # > this from me when the dawg is done... # > # > john # > # > ----- # > ---------------------------------------------------------- # > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum # > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us # > ---------------------------------------------------------- # > # > # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 00:32:58 -0400 From: Mark Wallace Subject: fsj: John's stunning fuel economy 17 MPG in a 360 with a Carburetor? That is impressive. What is the carburetor and what intake manifold is it on? If I recall the factory 4 BBL disappeared in the late 70's, but it was a Motorcraft spreadbore on a low rise cast iron manifold. With my series of Carburetors (a Holley 600 CFM Vacuum Secondary in the 90's, and a 650 CFM Carter AFB with air valve secondaries in the 2000's) and an Edelbrock dual plane intake manifold (and various other mods) I seem to get 13 to 14 MPG on the highway no matter how I drive. 3.31 gear in the differentials and all. 83 would have been a lockup torque converter on the TF 727. Not a terrible transmission, but not a great one either. The trailer tow versions are reasonably durable though. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 22:25:31 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: Re: fsj: John's stunning fuel economy it was my son Mark's skill... and daring... he got 17.56 by drafting semis at 60mph... not something I would have done, he was concerned about running out of gas and having to attempt a restart... it's a bit of a bear to start... suspect there is a leak in the fuel system (smell gas) and that's causing the level to drop making it harder to start... he finally hit some heavy traffic and decided to play it safe and tank up... that's when he figured out he did really well... I was surprised at how little I could get in... ...out in the free air it dropped to 15 mpg, combined total for the run from Vancouver, WA to Snohomish 16.43 mpg. it's the motorcraft 2150, 2v... yes on the 727, likely a lockup... also has oversized tires by about 9% and 2.72 axles... truck is clean and straight... no a/c, no tilt, basic, don't even know if it has a spare, haven't looked. :) no plans to do anything other than fix everything properly... no mods planned... just replace worn parts and rubber parts... make it tight and as stock as possible. the value of these things is starting to go up... unfortunately my son will likely want to buy it when I'm done with it... we were both amazed at how open the cab felt, got to love that panascopic vision... can hardly wait for superdawg to be done so I can be in a Diesel short wheelbase version. In the meantime, at least I have one... :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sun, 27 Mar 2011, Mark Wallace wrote: # 17 MPG in a 360 with a Carburetor? That is impressive. What is the carburetor # and what intake manifold is it on? If I recall the factory 4 BBL disappeared # in the late 70's, but it was a Motorcraft spreadbore on a low rise cast iron # manifold. # # With my series of Carburetors (a Holley 600 CFM Vacuum Secondary in the 90's, # and a 650 CFM Carter AFB with air valve secondaries in the 2000's) and an # Edelbrock dual plane intake manifold (and various other mods) I seem to get 13 # to 14 MPG on the highway no matter how I drive. 3.31 gear in the differentials # and all. # # 83 would have been a lockup torque converter on the TF 727. Not a terrible # transmission, but not a great one either. The trailer tow versions are # reasonably durable though. # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 01:09:58 -0500 From: Kim Tesar Subject: Re: fsj: Re: [WJ-Grand] math problem A good approach when looking for error is: % Variance = ((Observed - Actual) / Actual) * 100 If we take the mapquest values as actual, % Variance = ((114.6 - 124.97)/124.97)*100 = -8.3% So how can I calculate actual miles using the new truck odometer? Using our known variance and the equation above, solve for actual... Actual * % Var = (Observed - Actual) * 100 Actual * % Var = (100 * Observed) - (100 * Actual) Actual * % Var + 100 * Actual = 100 * Observed Actual = (100 * Observed ) / (% Variance + 100) Actual = (100 * Observed ) / (-8.3 + 100) Actual = (100 * Observed ) / (91.7) Actual miles = Odometer miles * 1.09. MPG is just actual miles / gallons. 17.6. Impressive indeed. - - Landon /////// On Mar 26, 2011, at 11:20 AM, john wrote: > The progressive 4v can get better mileage because the primaries are > smaller. On my 81 went from 10 to 12, more or less. > > Talked to him this morning, he was drafting semis to get the > mileage, he noted that mythbusters saw a 60% increase in economy > doing that. > > He confirmed my math and showed me an easier way to calculate with > the error factor. > > He also said the mileage from Tacoma here will be more realistic, > he didn't drive it as gingerly once he realized it would make it > home. :) > > Soon as I have my morning latte I will head on up the hill to top > it off. He's thinking it'll be closer to 12mpg. So 16-17mpg > drafting semis on I-5 is impressive. > > Beautiful sunrise this morning. Still trying to determine which of > the 128 pictures I tool is the best. > > > > john at http://wagoneers.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: "dave" > Sender: WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com > Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 07:46:57 > To: > Reply-To: WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [WJ-Grand] math problem > > I like the 17 mpg better! > > IIRC the 4bbl carb can get better gas mileage than the 2bbl. > > Of course we know you taught your son how to drive for mpg! ;-) > > > > later, > > dave AKA vwdoc1 > > _____ > > From: WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com [mailto:WJ-Grand-at-yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf > Of john > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 3:02 AM > To: undisclosed-recipients: > Subject: [WJ-Grand] math problem > > > > > > ok, it's been a long day... and I'm tired... but I'm confusing > myself and > using a computer to do it. > > here's the situation... the '83 J10 I just bought has larger tires > than > stock... > so the odometer reads less than actually travelled. > > my son filled the J10 up in Vancouver, and got nervous in Tacoma > (fuel gauge > isn't working)... > so he stopped and topped it off and was surprised that it would > only take > 7.1 gallons... > the odometer math was 114.6 miles... but the GPS speed was about > 10% off the > speedo reading, > so I used the two addresses from the gas stations on I-5... > mapquested... > came out to 124.97 miles. > > ok, so here's where my feeble math skills cause me some > confusion... I think > I have the right > answer, but want to verify... so I can establish the algorithim in > excel... > > odometer miles ERROR gals mpg cost per gal place & notes > 19,390.2 start 0.0905 > purchased in 404 NE 78th st, vancouver, wa - error =(J4/C4)-1 > > 19,504.8 114.6 125.0 7.1 17.68 $26.57 $3.76 > purchased in 8433 south hosmer, tacoma, wa - actual miles: 124.97 > > actual miles error factor c4=odometer reading - d3-error factor > 124.97 0.090488656 =(C4*$D$3)+C4 > > so my calculations should be actual reading x error factor + actual > reading... right? > > to get the error factor I took the mapquest miles/odometer miles - > 1... > right? > > or do I take the difference in the miles, 10.37 miles and divide > that by the > odometer reading??? > those miles are off a little bit... don't think that's right and my > first > formula works out... > > if that's the case he didn't get 16.1 mpg, or the 17.71 I first > came up > with, but 17.68 mpg, > which is pretty close to an amazing record for a 360 V8... he > claims he was > drafting semi's > at 60 (instead of driving at 70mph)... tires were pumped up to near > max... > > in other news my Jetta got about 48 mpg, I tanked up at the same > station but > went across > the columbia into portland, across on the banfield to 205 and down to > clackamas, then back > up 205/I-5... cruise set at the speed limit and if needed I got on > it to get > around congestion... > > pictures to follow... will be at http://fotomeister.us/2011/03- > Mar-25-J10 > took some night shots... > > It sure was nice to drive a J10 again... really miss superdawg... > and I > think my son will buy > this from me when the dawg is done... > > john > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 01:32:55 -0500 From: Kim Tesar Subject: Re: fsj: A.I.R. pump/stuff needed No functional test to pass, systems have to be in place and hooked up. No catalytic converter on the 6 cyl, but even in 79, there were systems, they even make sense with the great manuals we have available. I'm on a bit of a discovery with this. It's unfortunate that cars through the 70s and 80s were built with these components, but as owners, we are not well trained to handle them. I'd like to hear from Mark about what kind of cottage engineering industry existed at AMC for vacuum systems. PCV (we've talked about this) EGR (I think the one from the other motor is leaking, the vacuum port does not hold vacuum when off the truck at least) AIR (still not clear that this is effective without a catalytic converter, I read that it helps to cool the exhaust stream...so we can send it to a catalytic converter?) I do have the manifold and check valve, but not the diverter valve, pump, and hoses TAC for the warm air intake - I don't have a place to connect the warm air hose to the manifold, seems of limited value in warm climate/ days. And there's a distributor advance dependency on the TAC open as well. Might as well count the weighted flap in the exhaust that opens up as the engine warms. I'm just glad I have: 1. an American truck that's easy to work on 2. parts are generally available, with some scrounging 3. a good community on the internet 4. shop manuals online at oljeep.com - - Landon On Mar 26, 2011, at 2:27 AM, john wrote: > you have emissions on a '79??? my '83 doesn't require any... > and I'm quite happy, because I'm not sure it would pass. :) > > I may have some of the air lines, not sure about the banjo bolts > though... will > look tomorrow... or if mine has them I'll remove them... > > I'm still twiddling bits in excel, not sure but I think my kid > got 17.7 mpg... he was drafting semis at 60mph on I-5 (speed limit > was 70)... > > raw data is 114.6 miles, 7.1 gallons... mapquest shows the two > gas stations he drove between was 124.97 miles apart... factoring > that percentage > of error in as .0917 the miles are correct and the mpg goes to 17.7 > (from 16.1). > > It has oversized tires, about 10% worth... > > john > > date odometer miles ERROR gals mpg > 25-Mar-11 19,390.2 start 0.0917 15.4 17.70 > 25-Mar-11 19,504.8 114.6 125.1 7.1 17.70 > > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > On Sat, 26 Mar 2011, Kim Tesar wrote: > > # Hi all, > # > # Need one for my J10 to pass inspection. Has to be hooked up. > # I can find one locally for $35 but would gladly pay 25+shipping > to buy from > # someone on the list. > # > # Bracket, belt, diverter valve, and even hose also needed for 79 > Jeep, does > # not have to match exactly. > # > # Landon > # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 08:20:52 -0700 From: Michel Balea Subject: Re: fsj: John's stunning fuel economy The best I got many years ago on a few tanks of gas was 19.8mpg, across Nevada highway 50, just kept my foot at the same level, so speed was anywhere from 65 to 45 on hillclimb. 5 years ago I did 18.5mpg coming back on 5 thru the central valley after the grapevine. Me too I have 2.7x because of the 16% reduction of the MM part time kit on 3.07. But it has been in the 14mpg lately, I need to fix a few things, beside the 349kmiles on the OEM engine. In fact I have not driven it for the last 12months. The EGR failed opened giving me a overly lean mixture, and when I removed it, one of the stud broke in the intake manifold, my back took a dump, so I was not going to lift the intake until I was better..... As a note on the lack of power, the EGR has been removed and a plate has been secured to seal the intake, the increase in power has been stunning.... I probably regained another 30hp...... As a side note the 85 w 3.31 gets a very variable 12-13.5mpg, the 3.31, it is a lot of fun and so is the use of the skinny pedal. The gas gauge is inop after 100 miles so I refill every 200 miles or so, and get very different refill depending on how sensitive the sensor of the pump is. As for the gas smell, check the vent and filler hose for the gas tank. Next is the charcoal canister, and of course any other fuel line around the carb, I have never had an issue with the gas tank sending unit seal, but depending of the configuration, you may have a 1/4" dry hose for the return line. Looks good, how long is the inside of the bed..... looks like a contender to tranport (my) motorcycles..... Michel On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 10:25 PM, john wrote: > it was my son Mark's skill... and daring... > he got 17.56 by drafting semis at 60mph... not something I would > have done, > he was concerned about running out of gas and having to attempt a > restart... it's > a bit of a bear to start... suspect there is a leak in the fuel system > (smell gas) > and that's causing the level to drop making it harder to start... he > finally hit > some heavy traffic and decided to play it safe and tank up... that's when > he figured > out he did really well... I was surprised at how little I could get in... > > ...out in the free air it dropped to 15 mpg, > combined total for the run from Vancouver, WA to Snohomish 16.43 mpg. > > it's the motorcraft 2150, 2v... > > yes on the 727, likely a lockup... also has oversized tires by about 9% > and 2.72 axles... truck is clean and straight... no a/c, no tilt, basic, > don't even know if it has a spare, haven't looked. :) > > no plans to do anything other than fix everything properly... no mods > planned... just replace worn parts and rubber parts... make it tight > and as stock as possible. > > the value of these things is starting to go up... unfortunately my > son will likely want to buy it when I'm done with it... > > we were both amazed at how open the cab felt, got to love that panascopic > vision... > > can hardly wait for superdawg to be done so I can be in a Diesel short > wheelbase version. > > In the meantime, at least I have one... :) > > john > > > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum > http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Sun, 27 Mar 2011, Mark Wallace wrote: > > # 17 MPG in a 360 with a Carburetor? That is impressive. What is the > carburetor > # and what intake manifold is it on? If I recall the factory 4 BBL > disappeared > # in the late 70's, but it was a Motorcraft spreadbore on a low rise cast > iron > # manifold. > # > # With my series of Carburetors (a Holley 600 CFM Vacuum Secondary in the > 90's, > # and a 650 CFM Carter AFB with air valve secondaries in the 2000's) and > an > # Edelbrock dual plane intake manifold (and various other mods) I seem to > get 13 > # to 14 MPG on the highway no matter how I drive. 3.31 gear in the > differentials > # and all. > # > # 83 would have been a lockup torque converter on the TF 727. Not a > terrible > # transmission, but not a great one either. The trailer tow versions are > # reasonably durable though. > # ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 08:34:09 -0700 From: Michel Balea Subject: Re: fsj: A.I.R. pump/stuff needed I have no spares, but regarding a the egr, the same one is installed on a 84-87 Honda civic with carburetor, it is an exact fit..... the gasket list both 360 and 1.5l engines... The flap for the exhaust is useless, I have removed both wagoneers, the shaft will wear a crack on the donut, i had mine weld shut after I removed the shaft. For the TAC warm air hose, you can find a gizmo on the HELP section of your favorite parts store that is wrapped around the exhaust manifold so you can attach the warm air hose. I did a quick search on the dorman site but did not find that part. Michel On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 11:32 PM, Kim Tesar wrote: > No functional test to pass, systems have to be in place and hooked up. > > No catalytic converter on the 6 cyl, but even in 79, there were systems, > they even make sense with the great manuals we have available. > I'm on a bit of a discovery with this. It's unfortunate that cars through > the 70s and 80s were built with these components, but as owners, we are not > well trained to handle them. > I'd like to hear from Mark about what kind of cottage engineering industry > existed at AMC for vacuum systems. > > PCV (we've talked about this) > EGR (I think the one from the other motor is leaking, the vacuum port does > not hold vacuum when off the truck at least) > AIR (still not clear that this is effective without a catalytic converter, > I read that it helps to cool the exhaust stream...so we can send it to a > catalytic converter?) I do have the manifold and check valve, but not the > diverter valve, pump, and hoses > TAC for the warm air intake - I don't have a place to connect the warm air > hose to the manifold, seems of limited value in warm climate/days. > And there's a distributor advance dependency on the TAC open as well. > Might as well count the weighted flap in the exhaust that opens up as the > engine warms. > > I'm just glad I have: > 1. an American truck that's easy to work on > 2. parts are generally available, with some scrounging > 3. a good community on the internet > 4. shop manuals online at oljeep.com > > - Landon > > > On Mar 26, 2011, at 2:27 AM, john wrote: > > you have emissions on a '79??? my '83 doesn't require any... >> and I'm quite happy, because I'm not sure it would pass. :) >> >> I may have some of the air lines, not sure about the banjo bolts though... >> will >> look tomorrow... or if mine has them I'll remove them... >> >> I'm still twiddling bits in excel, not sure but I think my kid >> got 17.7 mpg... he was drafting semis at 60mph on I-5 (speed limit was >> 70)... >> >> raw data is 114.6 miles, 7.1 gallons... mapquest shows the two >> gas stations he drove between was 124.97 miles apart... factoring that >> percentage >> of error in as .0917 the miles are correct and the mpg goes to 17.7 (from >> 16.1). >> >> It has oversized tires, about 10% worth... >> >> john >> >> date odometer miles ERROR gals mpg >> 25-Mar-11 19,390.2 start 0.0917 15.4 17.70 >> 25-Mar-11 19,504.8 114.6 125.1 7.1 17.70 >> >> >> ----- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold >> http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 si vis pacem, para bellum >> http://johnmeister.com http://wagoneers.com http://fotomeister.us >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> On Sat, 26 Mar 2011, Kim Tesar wrote: >> >> # Hi all, >> # >> # Need one for my J10 to pass inspection. Has to be hooked up. >> # I can find one locally for $35 but would gladly pay 25+shipping to buy >> from >> # someone on the list. >> # >> # Bracket, belt, diverter valve, and even hose also needed for 79 Jeep, >> does >> # not have to match exactly. >> # >> # Landon >> # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3719 **************************