From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat Feb 5 14:35:46 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, February 5 2000 Volume 01 : Number 713 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Speaking of California (I passed the smo Re: fsj: Sad statement about ORC Re: fsj: Speaking of California (I passed the smo fsj: [Fwd: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC] Re: fsj: list size fsj: Re: [FSJ-List] Re: What's the point? fsj: fyi: the latest ORC stuff and our lists Re: fsj: fyi: the latest ORC stuff and our lists FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 07:22:07 GMT From: Robert Barry Subject: Re: fsj: Speaking of California (I passed the smo >Gee, I screw-up and post on the wrong list and not one of the 822 >subscribers on the "other" list goes "huh...what are you writing about >anyway?" Of course, anyone on both lists is excused. Can't be expected to= =3D >remember details like which list the subject was on originally. Well, I for one didn't notice. The two lists are quite different in tone; a lot of "I'm looking to buy a Grand Wagoneer Limited; what should I look for?" on the other list- which is how I started out in the FSJ world. This list is more of an experts-forum/bench-racing/what's-on-my-mind-at-the-moment kind of list, that only works with a smaller group of people. Speaking of which, I'm starting to get FSJ withdrawl here! My Scary Cherokee has been sitting in the back yard waiting for me to install the new master cylinder I picked up last week. Work has been heck, and it's only been above 20=BA a couple days out of the last twenty, so I haven't been able to make= it roadworthy again. I've also got an old two-knob stereo and an old SSB CB radio to install, but I'm not going to risk frostbite to get some sound in there! I've only been driving it a month, but already I've been taking it for granted with the snow. Our lot at work is somewhat less-than-perfectly plowed, so when I took the car in this week, I had the displeasure of having to carefully pick my parking spot so I didn't get stuck spinning my tires on ice (and this is with positraction). With Scary, I *looked* for the slippery spots, preferably the spot half-occupied by a snow-bank so I could imitate the action shots from JP magazine. I'm also pleased with the way this truck runs in dead-cold weather; with nothing other than a stock-spec and adjusted 4350 4-bbl carb and stock ignition, this truck starts right up when the air temp is -2=BAF and the wind is whipping around. It starts and runs better in the cold than my GW! Well, tomorrow is supposed to be above freezing, and I get out of work at noon, so maybe I can restore its brakes and put Scary to work getting me through the slippery stuff. Bob Barry http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:20:54 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Sad statement about ORC =A0=A0 Sent message From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James=A0Blair) Date: Sat, Feb 5, 2000, 12:14am To: lenhart-at-off-road.com Subject: Aiding and Abetting Criminal Behaviour {Charges may be laid!} I am an unpaid major contributor to several of your E-lists for people with mechanical difficulties, especially the FSJ-list. As such, I cannot understand why you chose to post this neanderthal garbage: http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0This is a classic case of criminally negligent behavior and is legal fraud at it's least, and could result in the death of innocent person/s at worst. Not only did Mr. LaMarche break his rental agreement (regarding off-highway trips in rental vehicles), he admited to intentionally and criminally concealing the damage that he caused to the vehicle, which will leave it in less than legally safe condition. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0There are enough examples of people doing this crap in the news everyday. We don't need ORC advertising this brainless I'm-God-who-gives-a-damn-about-you attitude that makes people hate us offroaders. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0You may want to recall what side your bread is buttered on! You may see humour in this story, but the courts and offroaders trying to keep areas we can drive open will not! People trying to keep their insurance rates down will also not find it amusing, and neither will any advertisers on your site. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0DO NOT publish examples of this shoddy behavior, and remove the posting, or someone will turn it over to the authorities to possibly charge you with accessory to defraud, and possibly an accessory to manslaughter or murder if anyone is injured or killed while that vehicle was driven. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Once the insurance industry gets ahold of this post, you better have deep pockets, or a helluva good lawyer! Glorifying behaviour that only patients of a criminally insane asylum could enjoy has set you up to be sued to the hilt. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Do you want you, or your parents/ wife/ brother/ children driving this vehicle, or be on the same roadway as this vehicle? Use a little common sense man! I had a car fall on my head, and I have more sense than that! PS: I have cc'd a copy of this to Janet Reno and all the lists I'm on to show I am no part of this flagrant disregard for other's property and human life. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:37:14 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Speaking of California (I passed the smo A: I noticed it, but I kept quiet. I keep track of mine by having the other list in Digest format, and I just hit reply. I look at the to line before/or while pasting the original to see where it's going. That way, the worst I do is reply only to the original sender here! Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 11:20:57 -0600 From: poolcues-at-bellsouth.net Organization: Phoenix Pro Billiards X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {U S WEST.net} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fsj-list-at-moab.off-road.com Subject: Re: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC References: <007901bf6fa8$7740fd80$29a03fd1-at-kermit> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I see what you mean, Len This however may bite the hands that feed us, so to speak.. There is a new e mail list, like this, at http://www.onelist.com A new e mail list, called "1FSJ" this is the link to subscribe, http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/1FSJ This was made as a back up, in case what ever.. you can boycott there if you want, and have a real , and better control plus, moderators can be assigned to help day to day stuff go smoothly. and it's easier to remember the address to write too.. grin but a back up, just in case.. See ya later! R.J. FSJ, now only a "80", J-10 Honcho Len Sullivan wrote: > This is the reply sent by Mr. Chicas to a message I sent to all of the ORC > list admins. My initial response to this consists of only two words, which > I cannot use on the list because it would violate my own rules. My personal > feelings are if ORC wishes to continue this kind of thing they can do it > without me being associated with them. If this isn't resolved DAMN FAST, > y'all will either have a new administrator or you'll be receiving your list > posts from e-groups instead of ORC. > > -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10 > -FSJ List Administrator > -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959 > o ___ > ___/_II__I\___ > I__ _II__I_ _/ > (o) (o) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Patrick Chicas > To: <*****-admins-at-*******.off-road.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 1:00 AM > Subject: Re: proposed boycott of ORC > > > > > Hi Folks, > > > > We will have a response for all demands and outcrys by the publication of > > our next issue. Past that, let me make this very clear, we will never, > > ever, ever sucumb to the pressures of any group, entity or individual that > > wishes to censor content on ORC. To do so, would be 100% un-American. > > > > We have discussed internally, the path we will take in our response. Our > > guess is that a good number of people will do some deep soul searching and > > a lesser percentage will be totally outraged. That's fine, we will never, > > ever let a minority enflunce ORC. > > > > Take care. > > > > PJC > > > > On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Len Sullivan wrote: > > > > > Hello all > > > > > > A member of my local off-road club (the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club - > largest > > > offroad club in the state) has posted a message to all club members > > > expressing outrage at an article posted by ORC on their website, and has > > > proposed a boycott of ORC if the article is not retracted immediately. > > > > > > I've read the article in question, and it bothers me quite a bit that > the > > > host organization for our lists would post it. As OHV enthusiasts we > all > > > have to constantly defend our right to enjoy our hobby against those who > > > would close public lands to all vehicular travel, yet ORC is posting > exactly > > > the kind of 'evidence' that these groups use against us. Granted, the > > > person who wrote the article didn't knock down any trees or kill any > > > endangered species...........instead he allowed the destruction of a > rental > > > vehicle and endangered the lives of his passengers - including a 5 year > old > > > child. > > > > > > I encourage all of you to read the article and ask yourself if this is > the > > > kind of publicity that our sport needs. Let your conscience be your > > > guide.........if one of my list members posted anything like this I and > > > other RESPONSIBLE off-roaders on the list would slap him down > immediately. > > > I intend to write a letter to ORC demanding that it be removed and a > > > retraction/apology put up in it's place. If they won't, I'm sure that > > > e-groups would be happy to host my list. I've spent too much time > defending > > > our sport to sit idly by and allow a site as visible as ORC to post > > > something like this. > > > > > > Here is a link to the article: > > > > > > http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10 > > > -FSJ List Administrator > > > -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959 > > > o ___ > > > ___/_II__I\___ > > > I__ _II__I_ _/ > > > (o) (o) > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > > > > > > > > International Full Size Jeep Association http://fsj.4x4.org > FSJ-List listserver provided by: > Off-road.com http://www.off-road.com - --------------2BBFC0F318A26A573D088019-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:01:45 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: list size 822? sheesh... remember our fears of a large list when we had 50 folks? :) I think we're up over 100, I'll do a list stats in a day or so and share the info. :) The traffic has increased so much on the XJ list on digest.net that I've slipped into the digest mode. :) I'm the list mom too... ;) The Diesel Benz list has gotten really quiet since I sold Fritz... Of course Diesel Benz automobiles are pretty doggone trouble free... I sure with the M class had a Diesel. If it did I'd really consider buying a new one... never had a new car or truck. If the Grand Cherokee (WJ) had better visibility I'd give it more thought... later, john >Michael=A0Baxter goofed and wrote: >Gee, I screw-up and post on the wrong list and not one of the 822 >subscribers on the "other" list goes "huh...what are you writing about >anyway?" Of course, anyone on both lists is excused. Can't be expected >to remember details like which list the subject was on originally.=20 - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 13:03:23 -0600 From: poolcues-at-bellsouth.net Subject: fsj: Re: [FSJ-List] Re: What's the point? So you ar supporting a criminal act? by posting it, ( the article ) was not cool.... and the rental company , will not think so either. What you did was way too extreme! Len , did not threaten you! He threaten the company? How? Did he... Physically ? In case you forgot, you need a reality check! Your "Company" is supported by us, (the people) and we are also Consumers! And as word spreads, ( And you can bet your ass it will! ) We.. (the people), aka... "your bread and butter",.. will shut you and your precious "Company" down, then you will be another clue less, arrogant Company Man going through bankruptcy court, whining at them to save your ass. I am not falling for the rational , sweet talking bullshit your defend your actions with. What could he really do.. at that point,... but resign? This will not be forgotten , as I'm sure you hope it will be. It can become quite the article in the news, and the better business bureau, T.V. ect.. Why?.. Because We the people, can do this... even the power of one can do this! Also.. he did his job well as a List Adm. was a darn good one for the most part! Secondly,.. his position as a list Adm.., was not a paid one, and having a person basically work for you and not pay them, ... is for some people ..criminal. Getting free work as a tax write off, or what ever positive spin of a word, want to apply just to get around, from giving any compensation due to him what so ever. This is the Thanks he gets? I think that this compensation law is in our U.S. constitution! Volunteers, should get better treatment! Kicking him off , as the list Admin. was not the answer! So the question is now... who are you going to get to replace him? R.J. http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/1FSJ Patrick Chicas wrote: > Hi Lynn, > > I removed the admin because he fervorously demanded action and then > threatened further action and activities if we did not make changes > immediately. > > Lynn, it is not Len's or any other person right to expect that these > demands will be followed through on per their schedule. If we were to > cower to such demands numerous articles and issues covered would have been > censored over the years at ORC. > > Len is free to post messages at will on our system. This is freedom of > speech. I simply wish to not have subversives at the throttles of our > machines at ORC. To leave them in place would be administartively > negligent. > > Thanks > > On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, TLynn wrote: > > > Mr. Chicas, > > What is the point? You published an article that was demeaning to all > > OHV enthusiasts and then removed the FSJ list-admin because he reflected the > > views of the list and voiced his concern. It dosen't matter what reply you > > post later on your site about the article because most of the 800 or so on > > the FSJ list will more than likely not be returning to your web site. So > > again I ask you--- What was the point? I would percieve that a person in > > your position would be trainned in a much more articulate manner that just > > to say "We will have a response for all demands and outcrys by the > > publication of > > > our next issue. Past that, let me make this very clear, we will never, > > > ever, ever sucumb to the pressures of any group, entity or individual that > > > wishes to censor content on ORC. To do so, would be 100% un-American." > > I think you could have at least explained why you published an article that > > could possibly harm all OHV participants. And if all you are going to claim > > in defense is "freedom of speech" then why censor our list-admin? > > > > > > > > Tim Lynn > > "ToolMan-JeepBum" > > "It's a Jeep Thing" > > ICQ 21916084 > > 75' J-10(in restoration-unnamed) > > 96' XJ(Skinny) > > 74' Wag(parts) > > 77' J-10(Bull-Dawg) 401/TH400, QT, 4" lift, MSD6T & billet dist., 32x11.5 > > AT's, > > tlynn-at-sheltonbbs.com > > > > > > > > International Full Size Jeep Association http://fsj.4x4.org > FSJ-List listserver provided by: > Off-road.com http://www.off-road.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 12:33:37 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: fyi: the latest ORC stuff and our lists Not sure if y'all are getting this or not. There are some ugly things happening at ORC again. Surprise, surprise. Anyway, the message below bounced because the guy responding wasn't on the list. =20 FWIW, there is room for refugees from either ORC lists. We only ask that anyone subscribing adhere to the 4 rules that I've established for the lists I started, and also that you adhere to the lists of our gracious service provider, Richard. We have a great bunch of responsible, mature and intelligent folks on our lists. We enjoy some great technical info and personal interaction. = We have to be careful that we don't lose that as the list grows. That means we have to tolerate folks who may not communicate well, or, like me, too much.= :) Anyway, RJ just created another FSJ list on onelist that might be a good= place for a yet to be determined FSJ topics area. I believe that there is an XJ webring or another xj list off of orc as well. If we can all agree which list does what subject areas or topics then we can keep traffic within reason and enjoy= each other... just a thought. RJ can be reached at: poolcues-at-bellsouth.net Anyone is welcome here. The 4 rules are loose enough to follow and keep things friendly... BTW, there is a 2 dr 84 xj cherokee missing a 2.5L engine for $400 over by Snohomish Airport (Automotive Development 9911 Airport Way, Snohomish)... it does have the AT trans/xfr case, white/red interior, a little moldy inside, body good, contact Shannon Pence 360.568.9494 I checked with Olympic 4x4, $650 + $100 core for a 2.5L engine... =20 later, john =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D FORWARDED MESSAGE: James, I looked at the article to see what the fuss was about. Indeed even the=20 writing of such an article is in poor taste even *if* it is fictitious, as the=20 author claims. I fail to the see the point of publishing articles like this= =20 since it has no benefit an any level to anyone. I didn't find it amusing in= =20 any way, and it didn't even appeal to the twisted side of *my* morbid=20 sense of humor. I guess ORC is getting really hard up for articles to fill= =20 up their web space. I noticed a fresh looking editorial note at the beginning (dated yesterday= =20 2/4/00) promising a statement of clarity to be published soon. This=20 makes it look like they have no intention of retracting or removing the=20 article. What interested me was ORC's disclaimer at the end of the article. Was=20 this added since you sent you letter of concern? Or was it there all along? Craig ~~~~~~~ James Blair wrote ~~~~~~ > =A0=A0 Sent message From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James=A0Blair) Date: Sat, > Feb 5, 2000, 12:14am To: lenhart-at-off-road.com Subject: Aiding and > Abetting Criminal Behaviour {Charges may be laid!}=20 > I am an unpaid major contributor to several of your E-lists for people > with mechanical difficulties, especially the FSJ-list. As such, I cannot > understand why you chose to post this neanderthal garbage: > http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0This is a classic case of criminally negligent > behavior and is legal fraud at it's least, and could result in the death > of innocent person/s at worst. Not only did Mr. LaMarche break his > rental agreement (regarding off-highway trips in rental vehicles), he > admited to intentionally and criminally concealing the damage that he > caused to the vehicle, which will leave it in less than legally safe > condition.=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0There are enough examples of people doing this crap in > the news everyday. We don't need ORC advertising this brainless > I'm-God-who-gives-a-damn-about-you attitude that makes people hate us > offroaders.=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0You may want to recall what side your bread is > buttered on! You may see humour in this story, but the courts and > offroaders trying to keep areas we can drive open will not! People > trying to keep their insurance rates down will also not find it amusing, > and neither will any advertisers on your site.=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0DO NOT publish examples of this shoddy behavior, and > remove the posting, or someone will turn it over to the authorities to > possibly charge you with accessory to defraud, and possibly an accessory > to manslaughter or murder if anyone is injured or killed while that > vehicle was driven.=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Once the insurance industry gets ahold of this post, > you better have deep pockets, or a helluva good lawyer! Glorifying > behaviour that only patients of a criminally insane asylum could enjoy > has set you up to be sued to the hilt.=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Do you want you, or your parents/ wife/ brother/ > children driving this vehicle, or be on the same roadway as this > vehicle? Use a little common sense man! I had a car fall on my head, and > I have more sense than that!=20 > PS: I have cc'd a copy of this to Janet Reno and all the lists I'm on to= =20 > show I am no part of this flagrant disregard for other's property and > human life.=20 >=20 >JimBlair, - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:43:17 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: fyi: the latest ORC stuff and our lists A: As my friend Michel pointed out, friday was the Chinese new year of the dragon, which means sudden changes. Not sure if Craig is on one of these lists, but no, the disclaimer wasn't there when I read it first. The whole article reflects poorly on all of us that like to go offroading and smacks of the moral and intellectual decay that is rampant. If it was your own vehicle, that's one thing, but to willfully destroy a rental car, they pretend like nothing happened so the next sucker can get in and possibly cause a major accident is deceitful and criminal in any sane person's judgement. I am barred from posting there now (Big Whoop. More time to work on my Jeep! Err.. house, I mean!) Stand by for a major influx of people though, as the ship abandons the rats! John wrote: Not sure if y'all are getting this or not. There are some ugly things happening at ORC again. =A0 Surprise, surprise. Anyway, the message below bounced because the guy responding wasn't on the list. FWIW, there is room for refugees from either ORC lists. We only ask that anyone subscribing adhere to the 4 rules that I've established for the lists I started, and also that you adhere to the lists of our gracious service provider, Richard. We have a great bunch of responsible, mature and intelligent folks on our lists. We enjoy some great technical info and personal interaction. =A0 We have to be careful that we don't lose that as the list grows. That means we have to tolerate folks who may not communicate well, or, like me, too much. :) Anyway, RJ just created another FSJ list on onelist that might be a good place for a yet to be determined FSJ topics area. I believe that there is an XJ webring or another xj list off of orc as well. If we can all agree which list does what subject areas or topics then we can keep traffic within reason and enjoy each other... just a thought. =A0 RJ can be reached at: poolcues-at-bellsouth.net Anyone is welcome here. The 4 rules are loose enough to follow and keep things friendly... BTW, there is a 2 dr 84 xj cherokee missing a 2.5L engine for $400 over by Snohomish Airport (Automotive Development 9911 Airport Way, Snohomish)... it does have the AT trans/xfr case, white/red interior, a little moldy inside, body good, contact Shannon Pence 360.568.9494 =A0 I checked with Olympic 4x4, $650 + $100 core for a 2.5L engine... later, john =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D FORWARDED MESSAGE: James, I looked at the article to see what the fuss was about. Indeed even the writing of such an article is in poor taste even *if* it is fictitious, as the author claims. I fail to the see the point of publishing articles like this since it has no benefit an any level to anyone. I didn't find it amusing in any way, and it didn't even appeal to the twisted side of *my* morbid sense of humor. I guess ORC is getting really hard up for articles to fill up their web space. I noticed a fresh looking editorial note at the beginning (dated yesterday 2/4/00) promising a statement of clarity to be published soon. This makes it look like they have no intention of retracting or removing the article. What interested me was ORC's disclaimer at the end of the article. Was this added since you sent you letter of concern? Or was it there all along? Craig ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #713 *************************