From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Feb 15 14:30:36 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, February 15 2000 Volume 01 : Number 729 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: NEW 1966 - 1969 SUPER WAGONEER PAGES & REGISTRY POSTED Re: fsj: NEW 1966 - 1969 SUPER WAGONEER PAGES & REGISTRY POSTED fsj: My 2 cents worth fsj: STP in MT Re: fsj: Re: A sad and amazing bone yard find fsj: What's draining my truck's Electrons? fsj: Ignition Upgrades fsj: First post Re: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #724, TF vs. TH400 Re: fsj: First post Re: fsj: First post Re: fsj: First post Re: fsj: What's draining my truck's Electrons? fsj: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque fsj: J-4600 FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:12:32 EST From: RMSquaredJeeps-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: NEW 1966 - 1969 SUPER WAGONEER PAGES & REGISTRY POSTED Fellow FSJ enthusiasts: Having taken advantage of the 10MB offered by www.homepages.com, I've updated my Super Wagoneer pages and posted them up on the web. I invite you to take a look at the main page at: http://jeepwagoneer.homepa ge.com/SW1.html There is a guest book link on the main page and I invite your comments, suggestions and criticisms either there or directly to me via E-mail. If you know someone who owns a Super Wagoneer, please direct them to my pages and ask them to contact me s I can add them to the Super Wagoneer Registry (which already has four listings). Any Super Wagoneer, in any condition (even in a junk yard) should be documented. If anyone has materials or information that they would like to contribute, please contact me directly. I hope to continually update the pages as more information and photographs become available. I am especially looking to interview former Willys, Kaiser and AMC personnel who might be able to shed some first-person information on the original planning of the Super Wagoneer series. Thanks, Richard Truesdell 1964 Jeep Wagoneer 1969 Jeep Super Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:39:10 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: NEW 1966 - 1969 SUPER WAGONEER PAGES & REGISTRY POSTED A: Nice looking start to your site Richard! Too bad the city of Seaddled deemed the one I found to be a hazard to public safety and crushed it :^( All because there was a 15 year old lien on it! Richard wrote: Fellow FSJ enthusiasts: Having taken advantage of the 10MB offered by www.homepages.com, I've updated my Super Wagoneer pages and posted them up on the web. I invite you to take a look at the main page at: http://jeepwagoneer.homepa ge.com/SW1.html There is a guest book link on the main page and I invite your comments, suggestions and criticisms either there or directly to me via E-mail. If you know someone who owns a Super Wagoneer, please direct them to my pages and ask them to contact me s I can add them to the Super Wagoneer Registry (which already has four listings). Any Super Wagoneer, in any condition (even in a junk yard) should be documented. If anyone has materials or information that they would like to contribute, please contact me directly. I hope to continually update the pages as more information and photographs become available. I am especially looking to interview former Willys, Kaiser and AMC personnel who might be able to shed some first-person information on the original planning of the Super Wagoneer series. Thanks, Richard Truesdell 1964 Jeep Wagoneer 1969 Jeep Super Wagoneer ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:50:48 -0700 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: fsj: My 2 cents worth Hi, I'm Kim, I own an '80 Wagoneer. I've owned a number of Chrysler products with the T-727, including an '74 'Cuda with a factory installed "purple stripe" 360 [it was one of the last run, and they used Direct Connection engines to get them done]. I have not noted any difference in longevity in this tranny compared with the T-400 or the C-6. I had to put a rebuilt in my Wagoneer because all the seals were leaking, the rest of it was still good to go. 126,000 on the clock, and not much "stuff" in the pan, in spite of only two fluid/filter changes before I took custody. My only question about the STP trick is what does it do in below zero weather? I live here in NW Montana, and I have seen more than one engine refuse to turn over with a can of STP in the crankcase. Re: nail heads I owned a '65 Buick Riviera with a 425, single quad, that would eat anything on the road stop light to stop light. A real Q-ship, 'cause by the time I got it, the infamous Ohio Rust Monster had eaten up most of the body. Had to wire the driver's seat to the frame to keep from doing that toboggan thing. I have a couple of questions for you FSJ gurus. I take it from reading the archives that low oil pressure readings are a common complaint. Mine are just below 20# at idle, and never make 40# underway, and I have to run 20W/50 to get that much. I replaced the sending unit, checked the relief spring, etc.., but that's what she reads. A gauge problem, or should I worry [been this way for 5 years now]. Has anyone seen/heard of/done a Diesel transplant into an FSJ? I'm thinking GM 6.3 liter, T-400 converted for my 219 tcase, etc...? I have friends who drive Diesel 3/4 ton Crew cabs and 1-ton dually pickups, and they get better mileage, all around, than I can get with optimum conditions. Glad to be here, hope the Huorns get the ORCs.[ref. to J.R.R. Tolkiens "The Lord of the Rings"] :-). kim ++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:38:42 -0600 From: "Doug & Denice Keaster" Subject: fsj: STP in MT My only question about the STP trick is what does it do in below zero weather? I live here in NW Montana, and I have seen more than one engine refuse to turn over with a can of STP in the crankcase. > kim > ++++++++++ > Cool!! Do you live in Kalispell??? Another Montanan'..... I'm from Havre MT. I've never had a problem with stp in the crankcase and I have to use it or I don't have any oil pressure at all. Even with it though I have zero oil pressure at idle after warm up. Yes I need a new motor :-) Doug ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 100 08:13:41 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: Re: A sad and amazing bone yard find I guess the lesson I learned is everyone who doesn't have a fire extinguisher in their rig should go out and buy one now! And keep it where you can get to it fast! I'm still trying to talk myself into buying the rig I saw and a project. I probably would if I only had a place to store it for a few years. - -brad > I'm more determined than ever now to rewire my pristine M725..... Too bad > about that one though..... > > --Tacoma > > ---------- > > From: Brad Seevers > > > > Here is what is wrong with it -- it is a victim of an engine fire. It > took > > its toll. The hood is missing. Front windshield cracked. Engine > compartment > > is toast. Grill is melted. Some fire got to the dash area. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:31:58 -0500 From: Robert Barry Subject: fsj: What's draining my truck's Electrons? I knew it was too good to last; Scary, my '78 Cherokee, was on the road for a whole *week* since I finished completely rebuilding the brakes, so I knew it was time for something else. The "Something else" began to rear its ugly head yesterday, when the dash lights and headlights would occasionally dim, as though the whole system was losing voltage, or like there was a drain on the electrical system. It happened when moving or sitting still, with the engine running or with it stopped, but could not be induced to do it when the battery cables were wiggled, so I ruled out the battery (pretty new) and alternator (which I just rebuilt). Well, this morning, the battery was deader than a doornail. And when I hooked up a spare, it gave a good spark when I hooked up the negative cable, indicating a drain that killed my battery overnight. Dome light was not on, and there are currently no radio, or in fact any accessories plugged into the fusebox. So I'm looking at a drain on my battery. And I'm imagining it's something other than a straight short, as it took some time to kill the battery, and no fuses have blown, and every wire coming off the (+) lug on the starter relay is running a fusible link, none of which have burned up. Anyway, I think I know the routine; hook up an ammeter between the battery and the negative cable and measure how many amps are being drawn. Remove fuses one-by-one to isolate the circuit that might be shorting or draining the battery. If this reveals nothing, then start tracing unfused circuits up to and including the switches they control. My question is this; can anyone suggest some likely culprits? Has this particular set of symptoms shown up in your truck? Would it possibly be a problem with the starter relay itself (the first point of (+) connection on the truck)? Any suggestions appreciated. ________________________________________________ Bob Barry MailTo:RBarry-at-Providence.Edu http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:18:05 PST From: "John Bushnell" Subject: fsj: Ignition Upgrades There has been a GREAT discussion on ignition upgrades going on on the SWB (short wheelbase) forum over at off-road. The topics and links are provided below. Jeep 258 I-6 Ignition Upgrade... http://dosxxs.off-road.com/wwwthreads//showpost.pl?Cat=&Board=offroadjeepshort&Number=21010&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5 304 & 360 AMC Ignition Upgrade Article http://dosxxs.off-road.com/wwwthreads//showpost.pl?Cat=&Board=offroadjeepshort&Number=21099&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5 Distributor caps http://dosxxs.off-road.com/wwwthreads//showpost.pl?Cat=&Board=offroadjeepshort&Number=21585&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5 I hope you check these posts out, John Bushnell ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:37:11 -0600 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: First post Hi, I wrote a couple weeks ago about my excitement with a '73 J4000, determined to be a J4600, that only had a few holes in the floor. Wife nixed that, suggesting Volvo station wagon direction. I mated the two, and found an '89 GW to my liking - first Jeep or 4WD. It's got 130K miles, the engine has been rebuilt, though questionably, and the interior is excellent, with an ASC sunroof - pretty special, the 3.31 axle ratio, trans cooler, and factory towing. So, some questions.... Are the coil over rear shocks standard, part of the towing package, or aftermarket ? Is 12psi warm, in gear, idle oil pressure, 17psi neutral, and 39 highway cruise acceptable ? or should I worry about the bottom end ?(mechanical guage) How much crunch should I hear from the transfer case when shifting from neutral to hi or lo range selec-trac 4WD ? (so far I've turned the truck off, shifted, and restarted) Is 'Julie' a good name ? the vehicle has so many accessories. What are some good highway type tires with fairly rigid sidewall - 235/75 or so? What's the best place to start to prevent wiring fire ? Could offer that a good way to determine axle ratio is to take the cover off, count ring teeth, count pinion teeth. Axle Ratio = #Ring teeth/#pinion teeth Taking the cover off is not disassembling, it's inspecting. Stories about the wrecks are unbelievable, but I believe them. Less work for the cops to punish those who fit the system. Thanks for the post considering advantages through the years. - - Landon '89 GW Austin, TX ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:07:00 -0800 From: Clark Novak Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #724, TF vs. TH400 Well okay... maybe I didn't think this out all that well. But it sounded good!! :) Clark - ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Blair" To: "Clark Novak" ; Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 12:00 AM Subject: Re: fsj: Re: fsj-digest V1 #724, TF vs. TH400 A: Why? You'd be better off (simpler, less costly and time consuming) to swap the tranny and put in a Dodge engine! (If a change is what you need) To do the GM thing, it would require transdapters, or if you go TH400, then you'd need a front axle and all the QT stuff too! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:27:58 -0800 From: Thunderbird Subject: Re: fsj: First post "Landon Tesar" wrote: > Hi, > > I wrote a couple weeks ago about my excitement with a '73 J4000, > determined to be a J4600, that only had a few holes in the floor. Wife > nixed that, suggesting Volvo station wagon direction. I mated the two, > and found an '89 GW to my liking - first Jeep or 4WD. It's got 130K > miles, the engine has been rebuilt, though questionably, and the > interior is excellent, with an ASC sunroof - pretty special, the 3.31 > axle ratio, trans cooler, and factory towing. So, some questions.... > > Are the coil over rear shocks standard, part of the towing package, or > aftermarket ? Over in the rear under in the front is factory. > Is 12psi warm, in gear, idle oil pressure, 17psi neutral, and 39 highway > cruise acceptable ? or should I worry about the bottom end ?(mechanical > guage) Low pressure is pretty standard. > How much crunch should I hear from the transfer case when shifting from > neutral to hi or lo range selec-trac 4WD ? (so far I've turned the truck > off, shifted, and restarted) If you are in N you have to shut it off. You should make a steady, swift motion from hi-lo and back, not moving ao at least <2 mph > What are some good highway type tires with fairly rigid sidewall - > 235/75 or so? Depends on what you like. How much you are spending...etc. > What's the best place to start to prevent wiring fire ? check the wires around exhaust and around carb. > - Landon > '89 GW > Austin, TX If you make it to Dallas let us know...Lindel is usually pretty eager to meet up with people, too. Brian 78 J10-4 4bbl/360/TH400/PTQT/D44/D44 97 Thunderbird LX 4.6 V8/Sport "Four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo - use in that order." - --Ed Howdershelt ______________________________________________________ Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com Birthday? Anniversary? Send FREE animated greeting cards for any occasion at http://greetings.xoom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:44:55 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: First post At 12:37 PM 2/15/00 -0600, Landon Tesar wrote: >Are the coil over rear shocks standard, part of the towing package, or >aftermarket ? those sound like aftermarket overload springs... not standard >Is 'Julie' a good name ? the vehicle has so many accessories. I always name my rigs "boy" names... no point in stirring up trouble with the only lady in my life... ;) >What are some good highway type tires with fairly rigid sidewall - >235/75 or so? BFG AT's or Michelin LTX's are excellent, run both, very happy >What's the best place to start to prevent wiring fire ? look for loose wiring hanging around... especially near manifolds, tie 'em up, electrical tape 'em, look for loose connections/corrosion. Alternator to battery connections, under the dash, headlight switch, dimmer switch, fuse panel... amp gauge john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:59:29 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: First post Landon=A0Tesar wrote: >I wrote a couple weeks ago about my excitement with a '73 J4000, determined to be a J4600, that only had a few holes in the floor. Wife nixed that, suggesting Volvo station wagon direction. I mated the two, and found an '89 GW to my liking - first Jeep or 4WD. It's got 130K miles, the engine has been rebuilt, though questionably, and the interior is excellent, with an ASC sunroof - pretty special, the 3.31 axle ratio, trans cooler, and factory towing. So, some questions.... Are the coil over rear shocks standard, part of the towing package, or aftermarket ? A: The coil over shocks were added to help with Wag sag, a common problem on these beasts (mine has air shocks that are a little too short!) If you want to raise it back to stock height, getting another used rear spring pack, and using the main leaf from them with the ends cut off will bring it back up, and still give a nice ride. (Then you could put in Edelbrock shocks) This is especially useful if you tow. >Is 12psi warm, in gear, idle oil pressure, 17psi neutral, and 39 highway cruise acceptable ? or should I worry about the bottom end ?(mechanical guage) A: Mechanical or the original? The stock ones are for amusement only! That's about average for most AMC motors with some miles on them. My 6 cyl still has 40 lbs, and it's been run out of oil 3 times! >How much crunch should I hear from the transfer case when shifting from neutral to hi or lo range selec-trac 4WD ? (so far I've turned the truck off, shifted, and restarted) A: It shouldn't be too bad, but quick shifting at >5 mph seems to work best (I even do that with my NP208) >Is 'Julie' a good name ? the vehicle has so many accessories. A: The hills are alive with the sound of Jeeps! >What are some good highway type tires with fairly rigid sidewall - 235/75 or so? A: I like the sidewalls of the new Avon tires I bought, but they are 255-85R-16 (I got '88 or newer Chev non-4x4 rims) which require a lift (works out to 33-10-16) >What's the best place to start to prevent wiring fire ? A: You're lucky if the ammeter is gone by '89 (I recall so) since that's the most common part to catch fire. The '83 Dodge van with ammeter I bought for parts was burnt because of it, and the '86 I'm fixing was burnt out behind the dash. The wiring going into the tailgate (I unplugged mine and converted to hand crank first week I had it) Make sure nothing can short the cigarette lighter (kids with pennies make a real mess!) Clean all the electric connectors you can find with electric anti-corrosive spray. >Could offer that a good way to determine axle ratio is to take the cover off, count ring teeth, count pinion teeth. Axle Ratio =3D #Ring teeth/#pinion teeth Taking the cover off is not disassembling, it's inspecting. A: Still messy, especially when so far ALL the unopened Jeep front axles I've looked at had a tag in plain sight! >Stories about the wrecks are unbelievable, but I believe them. Less work for the cops to punish those who fit the system. Thanks for the post considering advantages through the years. - - Landon '89 GW Austin, TX ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:07:56 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: What's draining my truck's Electrons? A: Unplug the tailgate wiring behind the back bumper on the inboard side of the left frame. The flex joint is commonly bad. It does sound like my ammeter when it died. When you jump start and get running, put your hand under the dash (unless your A/C is in the way) and feel the back or the ammeter for heat. Robert=A0Barry wrote: >I knew it was too good to last; Scary, my '78 Cherokee, was on the road for a whole *week* since I finished completely rebuilding the brakes, so I knew it was time for something else. The "Something else" began to rear its ugly head yesterday, when the dash lights and headlights would occasionally dim, as though the whole system was losing voltage, or like there was a drain on the (snip) My question is this; can anyone suggest some likely culprits? Has this particular set of symptoms shown up in your truck? Would it possibly be a problem with the starter relay itself (the first point of (+) connection on the truck)? Any suggestions appreciated. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:49:06 -0600 From: Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com Subject: fsj: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque After I had written: >>> Early models with the higher outputs had the valve timing set for maximum engine output. Unfortunately, this resulted in unburned fuel escaping out the exhaust. This in turn caused poor fuel economy and more pollution. <<< Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net wrote: >The valve event timing for the 360 never changed from '71 to '91. The compression ratio was a little bit more for '71-'73ish at 8.4 to 1. 8.25 to 1 after that. The 2150 is a slightly bigger carb. than the 2100 for the 2bbls. Other than that, there is no rhyme or reason for Jeep's power specs. being all over the graph. < I have to disagree with you Michael. I had previously generalized because most of the books I have read indicated that all the major auto makers adjusted the valve timing of the engines by reducing the amount of time/angle that the intake and outake valves were both open. For more specific info I opened up my "Chiltons - Truck and Van Repair Manual 1971-1978." Though information on valve timing is limited in this reference I believe it does indicate the general trend that I mentioned. To keep things simple, I will just go over information on the 360 engine you mentioned (2bbl) from '71 to '72. In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had its intake valves opening at 18 1/2 degrees. In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had its intake valves opening at 14 3/4 degrees. This indicates that they were indeed adjusting valve timing during this period. In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" compression ratio of 8.5:1. In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" compression ratio of 8.5:1. No change, no effect. In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" horse power of 245-at-4400. In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" horse power of 175-at-4000. A significant drop in horse power. In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" torque of 365-at-2600. In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" torque of 285-at-2400. A significant drop in torque. Unfortunately I do not know much about carburetors, I hope to correct that soon. (that is start to correct it soon, it might take me awhile) The other literature I have read though still seems to point to the valve timing changes as the cause for the significant drop in performance. If you have other information, send it on in. Later, Jamie Phillips '73 J-4000 '77 F250 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:23:36 -0600 From: Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com Subject: fsj: J-4600 Landon, I myself have purchased a '73 J-4600 about a year ago and I can not find break parts for it. The drums are no longer made. I have pretty much come to the conclusion that I will have to swap axles. Could you either ask the owner of that J-4600 what they are doing for breaks and email me/the list or possibly send the phone number so that I could contact the owner on my own. I would really appreciate it. Jamie Phillips '73 J4600 '77 F250 home email: jphil78888-at-aol.com work email: Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #729 *************************