From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Feb 15 22:42:35 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Tuesday, February 15 2000 Volume 01 : Number 730 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque Re: fsj: STP in MT Re: fsj: My 2 cents worth Re: fsj: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque fsj: A sad and amazing bone yard find fsj: '73 J4600 Brakes, etc. Re: fsj: J-4600 Re: fsj: Diesel Re: fsj: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque fsj: Cummins 3.9L?? :) fsj: OME Springs [none] Re: fsj: J-4600 Re: fsj: OME Springs Re: fsj: J-4600 FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:37:11 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque A: There was some discussion awhile back on the AMClist about how AMC and many others retarded the cam timing by changing the crank gear notch. Nothing else was mentioned After It was written: Early models with the higher outputs had the valve timing set for maximum engine output. Unfortunately, this resulted in unburned fuel escaping out the exhaust. This in turn caused poor fuel economy and more pollution. <<< Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net wrote: The valve event timing for the 360 never changed from '71 to '91. The compression ratio was a little bit more for '71-'73ish at 8.4 to 1. 8.25 to 1 after that. The 2150 is a slightly bigger carb. than the 2100 for the 2bbls. Other than that, there is no rhyme or reason for Jeep's power specs. being all over the graph. < I have to disagree with you Michael. I had previously generalized because most of the books I have read indicated that all the major auto makers adjusted the valve timing of the engines by reducing the amount of time/angle that the intake and outake valves were both open. For more specific info I opened up my "Chiltons - Truck and Van Repair Manual 1971-1978." Though information on valve timing is limited in this reference I believe it does indicate the general trend that I mentioned. To keep things simple, I will just go over information on the 360 engine you mentioned (2bbl) from '71 to '72. In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had its intake valves opening at 18 1/2 degrees. In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had its intake valves opening at 14 3/4 degrees. This indicates that they were indeed adjusting valve timing during this period. In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" compression ratio of 8.5:1. In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" compression ratio of 8.5:1. No change, no effect. In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" horse power of 245-at-4400. In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" horse power of 175-at-4000. A significant drop in horse power. In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" torque of 365-at-2600. In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" torque of 285-at-2400. A significant drop in torque. Unfortunately I do not know much about carburetors, I hope to correct that soon. (that is start to correct it soon, it might take me awhile) The other literature I have read though still seems to point to the valve timing changes as the cause for the significant drop in performance. If you have other information, send it on in. Later, Jamie Phillips '73 J-4000 '77 F250 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:42:00 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: STP in MT A: In the tranny, it mixes well, as long as you're not running straight STP! LOL! I find it sticks to all the surfaces inside the tranny, so it doesn't allow dry takeoff like the fluid alone does. In fact, I think it's better for trannies than engines! If you have a new tranny now, I'd run synthetic ATF in it. Kim wrote: =A0=A0My only question about the STP trick is what does it do in below zero weather? I live here in NW Montana, and I have seen more than one engine refuse to turn over with a can of STP in the crankcase. kim ++++++++++ Cool!! Do you live in Kalispell??? Another Montanan'..... I'm from Havre MT. I've never had a problem with stp in the crankcase and I have to use it or I don't have any oil pressure at all. Even with it though I have zero oil pressure at idle after warm up. Yes I need a new motor :-) Doug ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:10:39 -0500 From: Robert Barry Subject: Re: fsj: My 2 cents worth >Hi, I'm Kim, I own an '80 Wagoneer. I've owned a number of Chrysler products [snip] >I have a couple of questions for you FSJ gurus. I take it from reading the >archives that low oil pressure readings are a common complaint. Mine are >just below 20# at idle, and never make 40# underway, and I have to run >20W/50 to get that much. I replaced the sending unit, checked the relief >spring, etc.., but that's what she reads. A gauge problem, or should I worry >[been this way for 5 years now]. Well, it isn't going to get any better, but it also sounds like it isn't going to get any worse. These readings are comparable to what my '78's engine reads; as long as there is *some* pressure, you're basically OK. Needless to say, a rebuild is in your future (and mine), but that's true of any truck, so it may not *need* one for another five to fifteen years. ________________________________________________ Bob Barry MailTo:RBarry-at-Providence.Edu http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:08:05 -0500 From: Robert Barry Subject: Re: fsj: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque >>>> Early models with the higher outputs had the valve timing set for [snip] >Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net wrote: >>The valve event timing for the 360 never changed from '71 to '91. [snip] >I have to disagree with you Michael. I had previously generalized because >most of the books I have read indicated that all the major auto makers >adjusted the valve timing of the engines by reducing the amount of >time/angle that the intake and outake valves were both open. That's not always the case; many manufacturers retained the same camshaft grinds, as it worked "good enough" to pass emissions. Two examples: The regular-performance Olds 350, in 2-bbl and 4-bbl form, used the *exact* same camshaft (valve events, lift, even part#) during its entire production run from 1968-1980. Same with the low-performance 455, from 1968-1976. Also, the Mopar 440's high-performance camshaft with long duration ended up producing very low emissions, and was thus installed in emissions-era big-blocks. Same thing with the Ford 460 camshaft; in that case, the same cam was used, but merely retarded at the timing gear. These changes were aimed at meeting emissions regulations for the least investment possible, not for maximum fuel-mileage; hence, fuel-mileage and drivability suffered greatly. It was only in the early to mid-80's that they became serious about re-engineering the whole powertrain from the ground up. By then, of course, most V-8's and I-6's were history (FSJ's being an exception) >For more specific info I opened up my "Chiltons - Truck and Van Repair >Manual 1971-1978." Though information on valve timing is limited in this >reference I believe it does indicate the general trend that I mentioned. > >To keep things simple, I will just go over information on the 360 engine >you mentioned (2bbl) from '71 to '72. > >In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had its intake valves opening at 18 1/2 degrees. >In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had its intake valves opening at 14 3/4 degrees. >This indicates that they were indeed adjusting valve timing during this >period. What were the closing events? This could be a retarded timing gear, if not an actual change in the camshaft (a book with part #'s would be good to solve this). >In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" compression ratio of 8.5:1. >In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" compression ratio of 8.5:1. >No change, no effect. > >In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" horse power of 245-at-4400. >In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" horse power of 175-at-4000. >A significant drop in horse power. Of course, 1971 is a gross rating, while 1972 is net. Same for the torque ratings below. >In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" torque of 365-at-2600. >In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" torque of 285-at-2400. >A significant drop in torque. > >Unfortunately I do not know much about carburetors, I hope to correct that >soon. (that is start to correct it soon, it might take me awhile) Those changed over the years. Interestingly enough, the biggest changes in hp ratings is not a gradual decrease as the years went on, but rather a seemingly arbitrary assignment of numbers, going down and up, then down then up then down again. So, for example, some early-80's 360's were rated at 129hp (the lowest hp/ci rating of any V-8 in post-WWII history, BTW), or at 144hp, while the same identical engine was rated at 175hp in 1988 (identical rating to the net output of the '72 engine), but then back down again to 144hp by 1991. These, of course, could simply be the measurement of the same engine at different points (175hp at the flywheel, 144hp at the transfer-case output shaft, and 129hp at the wheels). Of course, the entire point of this message? NONE of those ratings is enough for a FSJ! ;) >The other literature I have read though still seems to point to the valve >timing changes as the cause for the significant drop in performance. ________________________________________________ Bob Barry MailTo:RBarry-at-Providence.Edu http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:47:35 -0500 From: Michael Baxter Subject: fsj: A sad and amazing bone yard find Brad Seevers writes: >> As I wandered down the rows, I looked over and there is was. A 1979 Cherokee Widetrack. Now that is by no means a surprise - -- this yard typically has anywhere from 2 to 10 FSJs at any given time. What wa= s a surprise was the condition this one was in -- almost show room conditio= n! << I just ran into an '80 WT here at Pick-N-Pull in similar condition. It had some dents here and there but, it was rust free as well. I think ther= e were 8-9 FSJs at the local Pick-N-Pull when Mac and I pulled that Buick 3= 50 for him last week. And Pick-N-Pull turns them over fast. Longest I've see= n a FSJ there is about 5-6 weeks. Of course, every time we find FSJs in jun= k yards, there is one less on the road :-(. Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 15-Feb-2000 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:28:58 -0600 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: '73 J4600 Brakes, etc. sent this to Jamie, but thought I'd post for general interest.... - - L >> Could you either ask the owner of that J-4600 what they are doing for breaks << Thanks for asking, Jamie. I kind of felt that the list left you hanging on this one. It is drum in front, and probably has the drums you are interested in, the guy said he was gonna put the axles on a Cherokee Chief or some such that he had, and I felt bad about it, 'cuz it's not a bad truck. He mumbled something about a disc brake conversion, so this might really work out. I got the impression he'll need some help($) to pull this off. Aus-Tex Motors, Inc. 9602 North IH-35 Austin, TX 78753 (512) 821-3666 Please let me know how this works out. Another idea I had is I know a foundry in Fort Worth that can pour you a couple new ones, and get the machining done if you can pay for the pattern. You might even make some money in the deal if you find a market. I can't think of any better use for these lists. You know, he only wanted $1300 for the whole truck, TH400 with new case, 4WD worked, the motor was clean, started and ran fine on some very old gas. It was inspectable. White spoke wheels, and some worn heavy tread white letter tires. There was practically no rust in the bed, and some rust on the outside where the bed seams to the chassis. It is a man's truck for sure. Darn suburbia! - - Landon Tesar ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:38:02 -0800 From: Joe Schaefer Subject: Re: fsj: J-4600 At 14:23 2/15/00 -0600, you wrote: >Landon, > >I myself have purchased a '73 J-4600 about a year ago and I can not find >break parts for it. The drums are no longer made. > >I have pretty much come to the conclusion that I will have to swap axles. >Could you either ask the owner of that J-4600 what they are doing for >breaks and email me/the list or possibly send the phone number so that I >could contact the owner on my own. > >I would really appreciate it. > >Jamie Phillips > >'73 J4600 >'77 F250 > > Jamie, I did the brakes on my 4600 a couple of years ago and everything but the drums was available from NAPA. Regards, joe schaefer, nordland wa, usa, oldiron-at-waypt.com 63 wag, 73 j-4000, 82 cj-8 "we doan need no steenkin power windows..." - -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:53:40 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Diesel At 01:50 AM 2/15/00 -0700, Kim Smith wrote: >Has anyone seen/heard of/done a Diesel transplant into an FSJ? I'm thinking >GM 6.3 liter, T-400 converted for my 219 tcase, etc...? I have friends who >drive Diesel 3/4 ton Crew cabs and 1-ton dually pickups, and they get better >mileage, all around, than I can get with optimum conditions. > >Glad to be here, hope the Huorns get the ORCs.[ref. to J.R.R. Tolkiens "The >Lord of the Rings"] :-). > >kim >++++++++++ I've thought a lot about it... talked about it even more... ;) don't you mean a 6.2? I'd love to drop a 6.5L TD with a 700r4 (or current equivalent) with an NP242 in my 83 J10 Stepside.... dieseljohn :) (who is currently dieselless right now since I sold Fritz, my 81 300D) - ----------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/83stepside/ (Superdawg) http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Jx000s/marks-67-J3000/ (son's FSJ) http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:49:07 -0800 From: Joe Schaefer Subject: Re: fsj: '84 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 360 2v HP/torque >For more specific info I opened up my "Chiltons - Truck and Van Repair >Manual 1971-1978." Though information on valve timing is limited in this >reference I believe it does indicate the general trend that I mentioned. > >To keep things simple, I will just go over information on the 360 engine >you mentioned (2bbl) from '71 to '72. > >In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" compression ratio of 8.5:1. >In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" compression ratio of 8.5:1. >No change, no effect. > >In 1971 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" horse power of 245-at-4400. >In 1972 the 360 (2bbl) had an "advertised" horse power of 175-at-4000. >A significant drop in horse power. > No it's not a significant drop in HP, it's a significant "rating" change. What your not catching here Jamie is that in 1972 the auto industry changed HP ratings from GROSS to NET. That's generally about a 30+% drop in numbers. Never try to compare 71 and earlier to 72 and later HP numbers. It's an oranges/apples thing. Regards, joe schaefer, nordland wa, usa, oldiron-at-waypt.com 63 wag, 73 j-4000, 82 cj-8 "we doan need no steenkin power windows..." - -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:58:58 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Cummins 3.9L?? :) Quick, someone measure to see if this will work... ;) john, er dieseljohn... ;) Subject: Fwd: Cummins 3.9L conversion womack-at-axs4u.net This is the adress to get ahold of this guy. Talk about an AWSOME engine for the XJ. This is the 3.9L Cummins...basically a 5.9L cummins with 2 cylinders cut off. All for only 4500 dollars???? Man if I have the money when my engine blows and if I can get it to fit this is what is going in my XJ. T. Scott Kephart, "America's only true sports car is the Jeep" - Enzo Ferrari Dear Dr. Kephart, I apologize for being so slow in responding to your e-mail. Things have been really hectic around here. The engine dimension is 26" long and 30" high. Anything is possible. Base engine price which is one of our rebuilds with a one year unlimited mileage is $4500.00 of which I have plenty. Thank you. Gregg Womack. - ----------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/83stepside/ (Superdawg) http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Jx000s/marks-67-J3000/ (son's FSJ) http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html http://www.wagoneers.com/book-info.html Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:28:55 -0700 From: "Berry, Bradley A" Subject: fsj: OME Springs OK Guys, I called ARB to plug for Old Man Emu springs for our big jeeps yesterday, hoping that they had decided to build them in the previous year and a half since I had called. Not a chance. But I talked with a Buddy King who was pretty knowledgeable. He claims that they don't see a profitable market for their springs on our vehicles as their R&D and tooling runs about $15,000 per spring. So, they'd have to sink 30K to make the first set, and they don't see that as being recoverable. Short of convincing several hundred of our friends and neighbors to send in a deposit, we're out of luck for a set of custom springs; however, depending on our specific requirements, there might be something they currently produce which is useable. So he requested the following information: eye-bolt to eye-bolt length, along the camber of the spring. # of leaves Vehicle Weight arch of the spring (distance from plane of the eyebolts, to the inside face of the spring.) I guess we'd have to give him the final distance above with the weight on & off the wheels, as he didn't specify it. Any other info such as stock spring rates & shackle size would get us a little farther along. If anybody happens to know this, or has the time to check it before I get to it, please let me know. Thanks, Brad Berry 88 GW ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:03:50 -0600 From: Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com Subject: [none] Thanks for the info Landon, I'll check it out. >He mumbled something about a disc brake conversion, so this might really work out.< Somone else had suggested this possibility also. When I looked into it previously however the price was about $600 or $700 per axle and when I asked about putting it on a Jeep J4000 (much less a J4600) Truck they just said "what????" and "Oh, we don't cover those vehicles." I may end up drawing the break area on AutoCAD and sending it to them to see if what they have will fit. Later, Jamie Phillips '73 J4600 '77 F250 home email: jphil78888-at-aol.com work email: Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:25:44 -0600 From: Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com Subject: Re: fsj: J-4600 joe schaefer wrote: >Jamie, I did the brakes on my 4600 a couple of years ago and everything but the drums was available from NAPA. > Was it a '73 J-4600 with 12" by 2" drums front and back with a 5 lug pattern? Not the 12 1/8" by 2" with 8 lugs. (I think these were on the J-4700 and up that year) Because I have checked with NAPA here and they can find it in the books but they can not locate any. I have also checked with other auto parts chains, catalog sales and internet sites that supposedly could get anything (such as www.wrenchead.com) and not one of them could locate these drums. I have a Hollander (40th edition) Auto-Truck Interchange and it only lists that particular year and truck as using those drums. Of course this edition only covers about '60 to '74. I was in a bid war on eBay for a 50th edition (about '70 to '84) and thought I had it for $127.50 when in the last five minutes it jumped to over $200. (argh!!) Later, Jamie "still looking for answers" Phillips '73 J4600 '77 F250 home email: jphil78888-at-aol.com work email: Jamie.L.Phillips-at-us.ul.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:40:21 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: OME Springs be sure to cc the data to me, I'm working with ARB on some IPF stuff right now and have their OME setup on my little wagoneer. I've talked to them about the FSJ several times and have figured out some better shocks for our FSJ's over what they recommend. Also, Marc Bowers works there, he used to work with me at ORC on cherokee america, and he has a J3000... :) john At 04:28 PM 2/15/00 -0700, Berry, Bradley A wrote: >OK Guys, > >I called ARB to plug for Old Man Emu springs for our big jeeps yesterday, >hoping that they had decided to build them in the previous year and a half >since I had called. Not a chance. But I talked with a Buddy King who was >pretty knowledgeable. He claims that they don't see a profitable market for >their springs on our vehicles as their R&D and tooling runs about $15,000 >per spring. So, they'd have to sink 30K to make the first set, and they >don't see that as being recoverable. Short of convincing several hundred of >our friends and neighbors to send in a deposit, we're out of luck for a set >of custom springs; however, depending on our specific requirements, there >might be something they currently produce which is useable. So he requested >the following information: > >eye-bolt to eye-bolt length, along the camber of the spring. ># of leaves >Vehicle Weight >arch of the spring (distance from plane of the eyebolts, to the inside face >of the spring.) > >I guess we'd have to give him the final distance above with the weight on & >off the wheels, as he didn't specify it. Any other info such as stock >spring rates & shackle size would get us a little farther along. If anybody >happens to know this, or has the time to check it before I get to it, please >let me know. > >Thanks, > >Brad Berry >88 GW > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:52:24 -0800 From: Joe Schaefer Subject: Re: fsj: J-4600 At 18:25 2/15/00 -0600, you wrote: >joe schaefer wrote: > >>Jamie, I did the brakes on my 4600 a couple of years ago and everything >but >the drums was available from NAPA. >> > >Was it a '73 J-4600 with 12" by 2" drums front and back with a 5 lug >pattern? >Not the 12 1/8" by 2" with 8 lugs. (I think these were on the J-4700 and up >that year) > >Because I have checked with NAPA here and they can find it in the books but >they can not locate any. > >I have also checked with other auto parts chains, catalog sales and >internet sites that supposedly could get anything (such as >www.wrenchead.com) and not one of them could locate these drums. > >I have a Hollander (40th edition) Auto-Truck Interchange and it only lists >that particular year and truck as using those drums. Of course this >edition only covers about '60 to '74. > >I was in a bid war on eBay for a 50th edition (about '70 to '84) and >thought I had it for $127.50 when in the last five minutes it jumped to >over $200. (argh!!) > >Later, > >Jamie "still looking for answers" Phillips > >'73 J4600 >'77 F250 Yup Jamie, identical to yours: 1973/4600, 16" wheels, 5 lug, D-60-2 semi-floater axle(flush hubs, don't stick out through the rim), 12x2 brakes... Ask the NAPA or whatever parts shops you're checking with if they still have the "parts books". If they're using a computer ask for the owner of the place and ask for the books. Computers are the worst thing that could happen to us older rig owners...owners of older rigs...whatever. Seems the old stuff (that really is still avail) never got put into the puter either due to ignorance or lazyness. Prolly 75% of the parts "it's not in the computer" are really out there and the "$7/ex would you like fries with that...counter person" hasn't a clue... I'm gonna be off line here tonight for a month so I can't help ya much today but if the 4600 isn't a daily driver I can look up the part numbers you need in my PM. I'll get your request today but can't deal with it till I get back late March...airplanes to catch and all that... Regards, joe schaefer, nordland wa, usa, oldiron-at-waypt.com 63 wag, 73 j-4000, 82 cj-8 "we doan need no steenkin power windows..." - -- ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #730 *************************