From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Mar 1 09:43:01 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, March 1 2000 Volume 01 : Number 753 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: carb help... again... fsj: AMC 360 Engine Mods/Build fsj: NAPA and Valves Re: fsj: AMC 360 Engine Mods/Build Re: fsj: Re: Wagonmaster Kerrville Texas Re: fsj: AMC 360 Engine Mods/Build Re: fsj: NAPA and Valves fsj: Re: np229 gone... :( fsj: Re: One of our proposed destinations in news fsj: Re: carb help... again... fsj: Re: np229 gone... :( Re: fsj: Re: Wagonmaster Kerrville Texas Re: fsj: carb help... again... Re: fsj: AMC 360 Engine Mods/Build Re: fsj: Re: Wagonmaster Kerrville Texas FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:54:57 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: carb help... again... Ok, I've had a number of folks tell me what carb would work well on my 258 AMC, but it didn't stick in my brain and I haven't seen it in writing so it's like it never existed (unless you know someone else that has ADD you can't understand how important it is to have things clearly stated and printed out all in one location at one time. :) (that's why I make all these technical pages in table format... if I can see it like that I've got it! ) The 258 currently has a Holley 500cfm sitting on top of a Clifford Intake Manifold. It makes nice little black clouds when you shift... way too much for a 4.2L engine... it really sucks... ;) I was outbid on the stock BBD setup on ebay (no computer with it anyway), so I'm looking at what relatively inexpensive carb I can use to increase my fuel economy on the Clifford. I found a nice used Weber in Georgia, but it's a 500cfm as well... :( Another question I have is what are the specs on the Clifford anyway? Their website is quite lame... :( I'm not gonna spend $5 on a catalog for something I already own. Call me cheap, it's ok, I'm Bohemian. ;) So, one of the carbs I'm looking at or for are the Holley 390 cfm, JEGs has 'em for Only $ 258.99 http://www.jegs.com p/n 510-O-8007 Locally I've been quoted $375!! Will I see good fuel economy with that carb on the Clifford??? A used carb ain't much cheaper and usually is only "rebuildable". I've got a friend in Portland that knows of several stock setups for cheap... but if I can find a suitable/economical carb to drop on the Clifford it's a lot less hassle and can be done in a few hours. With gas prices going up and my wife only slightly less angry than a wet bumblebee over me selling Fritz... I've got to get my fuel economy back up without busting open my piggy bank. ;) BTW, the guy that bought Fritz is methodically going through the vacuum system and replacing and repairing everything. I can't believe the shop I had him checked out by last year didn't spot all the problems! No wonder the flippin' climate control system was so spastic. I may end up buying Fritz back when this guy gets totally fed up with chasing little gremlins around. :) He is still trying to figure the transmission flaring out as well, without doing a rebuild. He's got Fritz in a nice clean garage... Anyways, Fritz has nothing to do with my question. :) If anyone has a small carb, 2 or 4v for sale cheap, please get in touch with me. I'm looking to do the least work I can for the least amount of money. This is a temporary upgrade. :) Eventually I'll snag an NP242 and have everything I need to install the 4.0L engine/Aisin Warner 30-80LE tranny in Superdawg... Although I'm still dreaming about finding a complete 6.5L Turbo Diesel setup to drop in... ahhhh... what is life without dreams? It's the journey, not the destination, right? ;) ttyl, john - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:05:40 -0600 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: AMC 360 Engine Mods/Build Hi, of course, I'm interested in improving the performance of the 360 in my '89 GW. Starting with a carb/intake combination, new cam and hydraulic roller lifters, eventually an engine rebuild with flat top pistons, maybe headers and dual exhaust, though I don't wanna lose low end, and I kinda like the stock exhaust setup. Are there some good stories/articles/experiences out there with this type of thing ? Nothing radical, just improved performance/mileage/driveability/reliability/towing/sound/emissions/fun. Before considering adaptations, like Chevy or other, I'd like to consider modifications to stock. Should I search the archives here ? - - Landon '89 GW Austin, TX ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:10:30 -0600 From: "Landon Tesar" Subject: fsj: NAPA and Valves Hi, thanks for the advice, John. I went to NAPA and said 'needle adapter for grease gun' and the guy said, 'OK, here, but it's $5.40' A quality item, I'm not complaining. Are the valves adjustable on the 360 V8 ? I think I've got some clattering in the valve train. Do the cams go soft ? Engine was rebuilt at 106K, now has 130K, I wonder if some lifters got switched...It's not a heavy metal sound, just significant ticking. - - Landon '89 GW Austin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:26:24 -0800 (PST) From: Jeep Wagoneer Subject: Re: fsj: AMC 360 Engine Mods/Build The most common upgrade for AMC 360s is the Edelbrock performer package. It is their intake manifold, cam and lifters, and carb (600cfm). I opted for the intake, cam, and lifters, but went with the 650cfm Holley Projection 4Di. The engine still has < 200miles on it, so I can't say too much about it, yet. But from what i have seen, it is going to very nice. I am blowing cars off the line and not pushing the engine. During the rebuild, the engine was bored .030 over, and standard heads (no special grind) are being used. I am also using an all stock exhaust, although for 75 I don't have a cat. Also, had to remove the air pump to use projection. (ok, mostly stock) Like I said, this engine seems to have grunt and plenty of go power. It'll take a while to figure out how the gas mileage is, but that wasn't my main concern. I used to get 11/13 mpg running on 7-cylinders and with weak compression, I hope to better it, but not by much. - --- Landon Tesar wrote: > Hi, > > of course, I'm interested in improving the > performance of the 360 in my > '89 GW. Starting with a carb/intake combination, > new cam and hydraulic > roller lifters, eventually an engine rebuild with > flat top pistons, > maybe headers and dual exhaust, though I don't wanna > lose low end, and I > kinda like the stock exhaust setup. > Are there some good stories/articles/experiences out > there with this > type of thing ? Nothing radical, just improved > performance/mileage/driveability/reliability/towing/sound/emissions/fun. > Before considering adaptations, like Chevy or other, > I'd like to > consider modifications to stock. Should I search > the archives here ? > > - Landon > '89 GW > Austin, TX > > > ===== John Jacobs - jeep_wag_75-at-yahoo.com 1975 Jeep Wagoneer Royal Oak, Michigan http://members.home.net/jacobsj/index.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:28:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jeep Wagoneer Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Wagonmaster Kerrville Texas What?!?!? What a minute, who hacked John's account and started writing negative stuff.. three years following him around the lists, and i aint never seen such a low.. it almost hurts. :-) maybe you need to take a timeout and think about what yer sayin - --- john wrote: > If I had the bucks I'd probably give some thought to > buying one of those rigs. > Having all the stuff done can be a major headache... > ask any of us with rigs > in process... ;) Sure you can build your own > cheaper... but somehow it never > turns out quite the same. :) > > john > ===== John Jacobs - jeep_wag_75-at-yahoo.com 1975 Jeep Wagoneer Royal Oak, Michigan http://members.home.net/jacobsj/index.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:58:12 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: AMC 360 Engine Mods/Build there might be something in the digests... http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/digests john At 11:05 PM 2/29/00 -0600, Landon Tesar wrote: >Hi, > >of course, I'm interested in improving the performance of the 360 in my >'89 GW. Starting with a carb/intake combination, new cam and hydraulic >roller lifters, eventually an engine rebuild with flat top pistons, >maybe headers and dual exhaust, though I don't wanna lose low end, and I >kinda like the stock exhaust setup. >Are there some good stories/articles/experiences out there with this >type of thing ? Nothing radical, just improved >performance/mileage/driveability/reliability/towing/sound/emissions/fun. >Before considering adaptations, like Chevy or other, I'd like to >consider modifications to stock. Should I search the archives here ? > >- Landon >'89 GW >Austin, TX - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:03:22 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: NAPA and Valves the rockers have a pivot point... I wouldn't exactly say they're adjustable... I'd have to look in the shop manual... Easy enough to replace the parts though... could be that your cam has gone flat... hard to say... john At 11:10 PM 2/29/00 -0600, Landon Tesar wrote: >Hi, > >thanks for the advice, John. I went to NAPA and said 'needle adapter >for grease gun' and the guy said, 'OK, here, but it's $5.40' A quality >item, I'm not complaining. > >Are the valves adjustable on the 360 V8 ? I think I've got some >clattering in the valve train. Do the cams go soft ? Engine was >rebuilt at 106K, now has 130K, I wonder if some lifters got >switched...It's not a heavy metal sound, just significant ticking. > >- Landon >'89 GW >Austin > > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 01:10:38 -0500 From: "Ray Drouillard" Subject: fsj: Re: np229 gone... :( > I got outbid in the last 9 minutes... my wife keeps stealing > my computer and I couldn't get my bid in... I know how you feel. My wife was on the computer all night, and is now complaining that I have been on the computer all night. I'm trying to read my mail before I go to bed. I have been trying all night, but Mary kept looking at houses in Memphis. I think it's time to hook up the other computer and get the web sharing going on this brand-new copy of Windows 98 second edition. With a cable modem, I have bandwidth to spare :) Ray Drouillard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 06:20:21 GMT From: Robert Barry Subject: fsj: Re: One of our proposed destinations in news > wrote about: >> a proposed bill to designate the Black Rock Desert a National >> Conservation Area and also designate some areas Wilderness >> Areas. The Tree Huggers maintain the = intention is not to block >> public access in what would be the conservation = area. >> I don't think its chances of passing are very good as long as >> there is anything in it t=o block public access in anyway to >> what would become the Conservation Area. = I don't know about >> the Wilderness areas. > >I've been up to Red Rock Canyon, about ten miles west of Las Vegas, many >times. It's a National Conservation Area, and there's plenty of public >access; roads run through it from one end to the other. In the Wilderness >Areas, though, I think they don't want any roads. Well, yeah, but "roadless" doesn't mean that an area doesn't have roads; it just means that it doesn't have any "classified" roads, which fit a certain definition of "road" (after all, this is a _Clinton_ initiative... i.e. the same man who can ask with a straight face "What do you mean by *is*?"). Also it's reported that there are exceptions where a roadless area can have up to a half-mile of classified road in each section. Of course, the becomes pretty meaningless when the sections they are talking about are a single acre in size. Technically, my city of Providence could be considered a "roadless" area... So this roadless issue is something to keep an eye on. ________________________________________________ Bob Barry MailTo:RBarry-at-Providence.Edu http://studentweb.providence.edu/~rbarry/wheels/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:24:02 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: carb help... again... Which carb? The Holley 390cfm? I recall you mentioning the Offy manifold, but it costs $250+. Do you think the 390cfm carb will be worth the hassle/expense on the clifford or should I migrate back to a stock setup without the computer? I don't want to spend a lot, because it would make more sense to buy an NP242 and drop the fuel injected 4.0L in. :) BTW, I bought a pair of driveshafts for a short wheelbase J10 that had an NP229... so I've got a spare set of shafts to work with in modifying to mate up a different tranny! It'll be nice to have all the original stuff intact when I make the change over. :) john At 10:26 PM 2/29/00 -0700, Kim Smith wrote: >>>> As I said before, I can speak with some knowledge about that carb on the Offy Two Port. That set up should give you what you want. I expect it will improve your efficiency on Clifford, since you will be cutting down your venturi area by over 50% when on the primaries, and by 22% total. That 500cfm Holley is renown as a gas hog. Its best use is for class racing where you are limited to a 2v carb. When you run the numbers, even our V8's almost never pull enough rpm to justify the cfm's of carb we run on them. My experience is that the major errors made in building 4X4, towing, and real-world street engines are: 1. Too much cam, resulting in low vacuum, poor low rpm torque, therefore lousy economy and poor performance. 2. Too much carb, all the above plus bogging off idle, black smoke from the exhaust pipe, and making OPEC wealthy. 3. Too much exhaust. Novak has built or been involved in building more 4X4 conversions as anyone, and their catalog says it best: there's no need for headers until you get over 4500rpm. kim '80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219 - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:31:04 -0800 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: np229 gone... :( Wingate works well... I can't recall if I put a copy up on: http://wagoneers.com/UNIX/PC-info/SOURCE/ nope... If I can find the copy I will... or you can download it from http://www.tucows.com or wherever it might be... works great! john At 01:10 AM 3/1/00 -0500, Ray Drouillard wrote: > >> I got outbid in the last 9 minutes... my wife keeps stealing >> my computer and I couldn't get my bid in... > >I know how you feel. My wife was on the computer all night, and is now >complaining that I have been on the computer all night. I'm trying to read >my mail before I go to bed. I have been trying all night, but Mary kept >looking at houses in Memphis. > >I think it's time to hook up the other computer and get the web sharing >going on this brand-new copy of Windows 98 second edition. With a cable >modem, I have bandwidth to spare :) > >Ray Drouillard > > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:28:24 -0800 From: john Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Wagonmaster Kerrville Texas reality can be very harsh sometimes... you'll be cruisin' right along thinkin' things are awesome and then blam... sudden stoppage... you pick yerself up, look around and realize that you just dropped enough bills to buy one of those little bobtail jeeps or jeep look-a-likes from the far west... but after you shake yourself a few times you realize that you can't put a price tag on "panoscopic vision" and timeless style. While I think some of the newer rigs might be pretty cool, two things, no three things prevent that from happenin' here. 1) the better half won't part with "her" jeep 2) the J10 Stepside ain't leavin' either 3) we are highly allergic to car paymnets... shoot, can't even spell um. :) john At 09:28 PM 2/29/00 -0800, Jeep Wagoneer wrote: >What?!?!? What a minute, who hacked John's account and >started writing negative stuff.. > >three years following him around the lists, and i aint >never seen such a low.. it almost hurts. :-) > >maybe you need to take a timeout and think about what >yer sayin > >--- john wrote: >> If I had the bucks I'd probably give some thought to >> buying one of those rigs. >> Having all the stuff done can be a major headache... >> ask any of us with rigs >> in process... ;) Sure you can build your own >> cheaper... but somehow it never >> turns out quite the same. :) >> >> john >> > >===== >John Jacobs - jeep_wag_75-at-yahoo.com >1975 Jeep Wagoneer >Royal Oak, Michigan >http://members.home.net/jacobsj/index.htm >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > - ----------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com http://www.wagoneers.com ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:40:40 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: carb help... again... A: Carter (think a couple Prez's ago) BBD is the stock carb and comes in with and without computer flavours (only AMC/ Jeep used the computer one AFAIK) 390 would be okay IF that's not what you already have! (yours can be rejetted BTW, but I'm not a Holley kinda guy) Oly had a NV242 (don't ask for a NP242 or you'll get the 21 spline kind!) Why not get the EFI stuff for the 4.2L and put the AW4 in? (I have a front driveshaft we can cut to match from the '93 GC that is 2.5" longer than the one in Elmo) John wrote: Ok, I've had a number of folks tell me what carb would work well on my 258 AMC, but it didn't stick in my brain and I haven't seen it in writing so it's like it never existed (unless you know someone else that has ADD you can't understand how important it is to have things clearly stated and printed out all in one location at one time. :) (that's why I make all these technical pages in table format... if I can see it like that I've got it! ) The 258 currently has a Holley 500cfm sitting on top of a Clifford Intake Manifold. It makes nice little black clouds when you shift... way too much for a 4.2L engine... it really sucks... ;) I was outbid on the stock BBD setup on ebay (no computer with it anyway), so I'm looking at what relatively inexpensive carb I can use to increase my fuel economy on the Clifford. I found a nice used Weber in Georgia, but it's a 500cfm as well... :( Another question I have is what are the specs on the Clifford anyway? Their website is quite lame... :( I'm not gonna spend $5 on a catalog for something I already own. Call me cheap, it's ok, I'm Bohemian. ;) So, one of the carbs I'm looking at or for are the Holley 390 cfm, JEGs has 'em for Only $ 258.99 http://www.jegs.com p/n 510-O-8007 Locally I've been quoted $375!! =A0 Will I see good fuel economy with that carb on the Clifford??? A used carb ain't much cheaper and usually is only "rebuildable". I've got a friend in Portland that knows of several stock setups for cheap... but if I can find a suitable/economical carb to drop on the Clifford it's a lot less hassle and can be done in a few hours. With gas prices going up and my wife only slightly less angry than a wet bumblebee over me selling Fritz... I've got to get my fuel economy back up without busting open my piggy bank. ;) BTW, the guy that bought Fritz is methodically going through the vacuum system and replacing and repairing everything. I can't believe the shop I had him checked out by last year didn't spot all the problems! No wonder the flippin' climate control system was so spastic. I may end up buying Fritz back when this guy gets totally fed up with chasing little gremlins around. :) He is still trying to figure the transmission flaring out as well, without doing a rebuild. He's got Fritz in a nice clean garage... Anyways, Fritz has nothing to do with my question. :) If anyone has a small carb, 2 or 4v for sale cheap, please get in touch with me. I'm looking to do the least work I can for the least amount of money. This is a temporary upgrade. :) =A0 Eventually I'll snag an NP242 and have everything I need to install the 4.0L engine/Aisin Warner 30-80LE tranny in Superdawg... =A0 Although I'm still dreaming about finding a complete 6.5L Turbo Diesel setup to drop in... =A0 ahhhh... what is life without dreams? It's the journey, not the destination, right? ;) ttyl, john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:44:18 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: AMC 360 Engine Mods/Build A: Check here, and the amx files website. http://www.amxfiles.com Landon wrote: Hi, of course, I'm interested in improving the performance of the 360 in my '89 GW. Starting with a carb/intake combination, new cam and hydraulic roller lifters, eventually an engine rebuild with flat top pistons, maybe headers and dual exhaust, though I don't wanna lose low end, and I kinda like the stock exhaust setup. Are there some good stories/articles/experiences out there with this type of thing ? Nothing radical, just improved performance/mileage/driveability/reliability/towing/sound/emissions/fun. Before considering adaptations, like Chevy or other, I'd like to consider modifications to stock. Should I search the archives here ? - - Landon '89 GW Austin, TX ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:53:39 -0800 (PST) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Wagonmaster Kerrville Texas A: Gee, maybe I should take orders for custom built SJs! Standard package starting at, oh, say $10,000? Any takers? (PS: Elmo 2 will not sell for less than $20,000! I'll have nearly $10,000 in csh into it!) At 08:31 PM 2/29/00 -0500, Ralph L. Dean wrote: =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0John, do you know anything about the wagon master in kerrville texas selling full size jeeps on the net...his his prices seem high but do you know if he is an honest dealer...thanks..ralph - ---------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/ One of the guys on the FSJ list bought one and even gave a report on it after a year. He seemed happy if my feeble memory serves me correctly. (I need to put a search engine on my digest archive... mental note for Perl script... ;) I did the math of what it would take to go through and restore a Wagoneer. The numbers come up pretty close (within 25 to 30%) to what wagonmaster charges... The effort involved in getting a Wagoneer to that state is not inconsequential. I've gone through 3 or 4 wags and spent 25 to 50% of what he charges, but my rigs didn't come close to the look of his. =A0 A simple engine overhaul can easily run $2 to $3K, $4 if you do it at the dealer! A paintjob almost 2k... it adds up real fast... =A0 Not to mention finding the parts and a wrench to do it. So, based on hearsay, qualified as it may be, and a preliminary analysis of cost in restoring one of these rigs, I'd say that you probably will be fine. To get a nice, clean, solid rig already setup and working fine is worth a lot of money. =A0 I just spent 2 weeks waiting for one of my Jeeps to get out of a shop, and spent $800!!! and it still ain't as good as I wanted it to be. If I had the bucks I'd probably give some thought to buying one of those rigs. Having all the stuff done can be a major headache... ask any of us with rigs in process... ;) Sure you can build your own cheaper... but somehow it never turns out quite the same. :) john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #753 *************************