From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Apr  7 09:51:34 2000
From: fsj-digest <owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net>


fsj-digest           Thursday, April 6 2000           Volume 01 : Number 806



Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps
       Brian Colucci <versicom-at-juno.com>
       Digest Coordinator

Contents:

	Re: fsj: Fw: THANKS FOR QUARTER PANEL SUGGESTIONS 
	fsj: KISS
	Re: fsj: KISS
	Re: fsj: KISS
	Re: fsj: RE: T-xx and spline counts
	fsj: Re: Rear Window
	fsj: Latin help...
	fsj: Lists status - April 4, 2000
	Re: fsj: 401 rods in 4.6 stroker motor
	Re: fsj: Latin help...
	fsj: john paul pt quad(?)
	Re: fsj: RE: T-xx and spline counts

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:23:43 -0700
From: john <john-at-wagoneers.com>
Subject: Re: fsj: Fw: THANKS FOR QUARTER PANEL SUGGESTIONS 

At 10:57 PM 4/4/00 -0600, Kim Smith wrote:
>> next followed by fianlly attending to the oil leaks. My driveway looks
>like the Exxon Vadez was moored there.
>
>Well, that's what you get for leaving the third mate at the helm and getting
>drunk in your cabin! :-)
>Of course, you know that the idea of a leak free Jeep, esp. an FSJ,
>is a delusion that could get you committed to the cuckoo's nest??? <VBG>

Hey, get a 258... other than the valve cover they're much more leak free
than any 360 I've ever had!  Same with my 4.0L in my xj.  (after replacing
the rear main seal it's perfect... of course I waited until 199k before
fixing that... ;)

john
- -----------------------------------------------------
 john-at-wagoneers.com      http://www.wagoneers.com
     ...don't leave life without Jesus, please!
 Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold...
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:45:37 -0700
From: john <john-at-wagoneers.com>
Subject: fsj: KISS

>Subject: Re: xj: Hub (?) question
>
>After watching John play with Doug's wiring harness for hours trying to
figure
>out why his low beams weren't working and finally figuring out it was
burnt out
>bulbs, let me go ahead and ask the obvious question... did they remove all
>three bolts from the back side of the knuckle/hub?
>

What paul is trying to say... with his elbow in my rib cage... is that
check the simple stuff first. ;)  

LIKE:

Before dismantling half the electrical system, check the bulbs first... ;)
  (yes, BOTH bulbs CAN burn out at the same time.... ;)
Before dismantling the fuel pump first determine if there is fuel in the tank.
Before replacing the starter, have the battery checked.

Before reloading the operating system on a workstation because a user couldn't
    log in, make sure the caps lock was off.
and so on... don't ask me how I know these things... ;)

btw, KISS = keep it simple silly (or stupid)

john
- -----------------------------------------------------
 john-at-wagoneers.com      http://www.wagoneers.com
     ...don't leave life without Jesus, please!
 Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold...
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:10:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair)
Subject: Re: fsj: KISS

A: Sublim messages ahead!

Paul W wrote:
>>After watching John play with Doug's wiring harness for hours trying
to figure out why his low beams weren't working and finally figuring out
it was burnt out bulbs, let me go ahead and ask the obvious question...
did they remove all three bolts from the back side of the knuckle/hub? 

John wrote:
>What paul is trying to say... with his elbow in my rib cage... is that
check the simple stuff first. ;) 
LIKE: 
Before dismantling half the electrical system, check the bulbs first...
;) (yes, BOTH bulbs CAN burn out at the same time.... ;) 

A: I tried to tell you that in the first place! Sheesh! As soon as I saw
the hole in the lens, I figured that's what it was!

>Before dismantling the fuel pump first determine if there is fuel in
the tank. 

A: LOL! Or before dropping the tank, make sure it's empty, not full!

>Before replacing the starter, have the battery checked. 

A: Draw test the starter. Quick way to check the battery (and cable
connections) is turn the lights on and try cranking. The amount of dark
thrown by the lights is inversely proportional to either the amount of
power in the battery or corrosion of the clamps, or both!

>Before reloading the operating system on a workstation because a user
couldn't =A0 log in, make sure the caps lock was off. 
and so on... don't ask me how I know these things... ;) 
btw, KISS =3D keep it simple silly (or stupid) 
john

A: Or keep it simple smartalec!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr
http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on
allexperts.com Pics: 
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 23:22:50 -0700
From: john <john-at-wagoneers.com>
Subject: Re: fsj: KISS

At 11:10 PM 4/4/00 -0700, James Blair wrote:
>John wrote:
>>What paul is trying to say... with his elbow in my rib cage... is that
>check the simple stuff first. ;) 
>LIKE: 
>Before dismantling half the electrical system, check the bulbs first...
>;) (yes, BOTH bulbs CAN burn out at the same time.... ;) 
>
>A: I tried to tell you that in the first place! Sheesh! As soon as I saw
>the hole in the lens, I figured that's what it was!

It was one of those cases where I listened to the user instead going through
the process myself.   In other words I hadn't engaged my brain. ;)  You
tried to get through my thick skull... but it was thicker than usual
Sunday. :)

For some reason I got fixated on what he said instead of doing the logic
myself.
You'd think I'd know better than to just listen to someone instead of
working through
things on my own...  That's also why a writer can't proof read his own
work...  Or
why a programmer can't test his own code...  ;)  (can't should be "shouldn't")

yeah, btw... so where were you when I also didn't realize that I could have
stuffed
Paul's axle in the little wagoneer and THEN later pulled it put on the new
bearing?  :)
He could have taken it home right away...  ;)

BTW, gonna take the little wagoneer into town Thursday night and have the
new bearing
pressed on... Paul, you still working swings?   What time is your dinner
break?  I can
run it over after we get it done... of course it'll probably be late
Thursday night...

john
- -----------------------------------------------------
 john-at-wagoneers.com      http://www.wagoneers.com
     ...don't leave life without Jesus, please!
 Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold...
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 100 09:59:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brad Seevers <bks-at-co.intel.com>
Subject: Re: fsj: RE: T-xx and spline counts

Well, it would indead be a legenary setup if it has 21 splines!  21 splines
were never SUPOSED to be in FSJs, but these are jeeps...

21 splines were also never suposed to be in CJs, and I'm sure they never were
because the T-5 (and T-176, T-4, And SR-4) were only used from 1980 on.  In 
1980 they also switched to the D300 t-case.  The jeep D300 tcase was only
ever made with 23 splines.

The 1980 IH Scout also used the D300, and I think it may have had 21 splines,
but there are signif differences between the IH and Jeep versions of the D300.
In other words, you can't swap inputs between them!  The Jeep version uses
an input spud shaft and bearing retainer all as part of the t-case.  The
scout version does not -- it is like the D20 and the transmission output
shaft has a gear on the end that goes in the t-case.

But, YJs may have used 21 spline t-5s.  I don't know.  YJs all used NP t-cases
that could have been either 23 or 21 splines.

Well, enough of that!

- -brad

John writes:

> If it breaks I'll drop in the 4.0L and Aisin Warner 4spd auto I bought
> a few years ago.  I'll either need to change the output shaft to 23 spline,
> or get a different xfr case.  Or, LW, I may have one of those legendary
> setups with 21 splines... it's possible, but probably not likely.  I
> don't think 21 splines went into FSJs, even in 83.  But reshafting the
> AW4 isn't too big of a deal from what I've heard.  Either way I'm probably
> looking at three to five bills to make the swap.  But the swap will get
> me fuel injection, an automatic and probably 20mpg...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:46:11 -0700
From: john <john-at-wagoneers.com>
Subject: fsj: Re: Rear Window

http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/tailgate/tailgate.html

At 08:09 AM 4/5/00 -0500, Fry, Jeffrey Maj 1AF/DOXN wrote:
>John,
>	There was a great article on how to fix the rear window on the Jeep.
>It explained how to take it apart and get the electronic to work...could you
>give me a point out to that kind of information.
>
>thanks
>
>jeff
>
- -----------------------------------------------------
 john-at-wagoneers.com      http://www.wagoneers.com
     ...don't leave life without Jesus, please!
 Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold...
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:48:06 -0700
From: john <john-at-wagoneers.com>
Subject: fsj: Latin help...

Ok... it's been way too many years for me to remember my Latin from High
School...

anyway, y'all know the phrase:

	veni, vidi, vici  (not sure if I spelled the last one correctly)
which means:
	I came, I saw, I conquered.

Well, I'd like to create a couple of sayings in Latin like this:

	I came, I saw, I ate

and 

	I came, I saw, I wheeled.

:)
thanx,
john
- -----------------------------------------------------
 john-at-wagoneers.com      http://www.wagoneers.com
     ...don't leave life without Jesus, please!
 Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold...
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:37:04 -0700
From: john <john-at-wagoneers.com>
Subject: fsj: Lists status - April 4, 2000

Members of list 'xj': 53 subscribers
Members of list 'xj-digest': 64 subscribers
 
Members of list 'fsj': 81 subscribers
Members of list 'fsj-digest': 69 subscribers
 
Members of list 'diesel-benz': 89 subscribers
Members of list 'diesel-benz-digest': 46 subscribers

XJ: 117
FSJ: 150
DBL: 135

Wow, I didn't realize there were so many folks on the Diesel Benz list...
it's pretty
quiet since I sold Fritz. ;)  Must be so quiet because the Mercedes are so
reliable.  :)

And the FSJ list is the largest for inverse reasons... ;)  However, I love
my 83 J10
Stepside so much I parted with a very, very nice 81 300D... (I'm keeping in
touch with
the new owner, if he ever puts Fritz up for adoption I'll be first in line. :)

john
- ----------------------------------------------------
  john-at-wagoneers.com   http://www.wagoneers.com   
  		http://www.freegift.net/                  
- ----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:07:23 -0400
From: Michael Baxter <MBaxter-at-compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: fsj: 401 rods in 4.6 stroker motor

Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) writes:

>> 5.7" from what? I need shorter pistons, and .150 will definitely kill
ping! <<

5.7" rod intended for a small-block Chevy (SBC). I looked at the specs. I=

have at home last night and the Chevy 5.7" rod looks like the best bet.
Ford 351C rods are 5.779" long with a little end of .912", but the big en=
d
was a whopping 2.31".

The 5.7" Chevy rod comes in two flavors. 2.00 and 2.1" for the big end.
After '67-'68 is when they switched to the 2.1" journal size. The little
end is .9272".

Compared to the AMC 304/360/et al. rod, it's close. The little end of the=

AMC rod is right around .93" and the rod journal is 2.0945". As far as
width goes, SB chevy rods have been used on AMC 360 cranks in the past.
There's someone on the AMC List who regularly builds 360s with long SBC
rods.

Nice part about SBC rods is the aftermarket is loaded with better than
stock cast SBC rods. All the way to titanium if you really wanted to go f=
or
overkill :-).


 Michael Baxter, MBaxter-at-Compuserve.com-OR-N7OVD-at-arrl.net
 http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter
 From Reno, NV USA on 05-Apr-2000

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:30:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair)
Subject: Re: fsj: Latin help...

A: Veni, vidi, gusti (guessing) and Veni Vidi, Jeepi!

John M wrote:
Ok... it's been way too many years for me to remember my Latin from High
School... 
anyway, y'all know the phrase: 
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0veni, vidi, vici (not
sure if I spelled the last one correctly) which means: 
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0I came, I saw, I
conquered. 
Well, I'd like to create a couple of sayings in Latin like this: 
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0I came, I saw, I ate 
and 
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0I came, I saw, I
wheeled. 
:) 
thanx,
john 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr
http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on
allexperts.com Pics: 
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:11:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: john <john-at-virtual-cafe.com>
Subject: fsj: john paul pt quad(?)

Oh, one more thing paul... I spent most of my time fixing
the fuse holder setup... not troubleshooting the lights. :)  Actually,
I spent more time trying to FIND a fuseholder in my "shop". :)

I did a visual on the wiring and spotted the melted down fuse holder... could
have been a jeep-b-q since he was only using his fog lights to get around...

BTW, I found my lineman pliers...  my wife had gotten ahold of 'em some how...
mystery to me. :) It was in a toolbag locked up in a box on my truck!!!  She's
good... ;)

The Commando was too nice to ruin.  And besides that I didn't like the
way it rode, drove, handled or wheeled.  :)  Otherwise it was a great rig.

john

    ----

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
        john-at-wagoneers.com   ****   http://wagoneers.com 
              don't leave life without Jesus, please...
                   Snohomish, Washington USA    
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:06:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair)
Subject: Re: fsj: RE: T-xx and spline counts

A: Hi Doc! Hey john, I was emailing a guy named Jeff in TX that has an
IH the he wants to put a 258 into with a Jeep D300, but he thinks it has
a 21 spline 727 (I told him to send me a pic of the trans pan to be sure
it's not a 998) so I may be swapping my spare 23 spline output shaft for
his 21. Outside of having an oddball output shaft, I don't know what
else I'll do with it. (put a 242 in my wife's '84 Laredo?) His GW has
'88 Chev TBI on the 360! He's also selling an '84 GW. I also chatted on
the phone today with a guy that had a T5 with 21 spline but it went for
core when he had a Tremec built for his F100 4x4. (NOT STOCK) He builds
hot rod 4x4s and is looking for the number of the shop he got the Tremec
from (I think it's probably Dark Horse). 

Doc wrote:
The T-5 isn't known for durability, my friend. I wouldn't recommend
putting one in an FSJ. 

John wrote:
If it weren't there already, I wouldn't have. :) I've heard of the
problems, and even had a used 258/t-5 out of a wrangler that I bought
for the NP231. I sold the engine/trans... I could feel that the T-5
wasn't that good in just playing 
around with it. It didn't feel very solid. Superdawg's 5 speed has a
better feel, we're 
guessing it's a World Class T-5. Brad Seevers was telling me that the
specs between the two 
=A0=A0is significantly different. 
The PO of my Stepside tells me that she had it rebuilt special. From
what history I've gleaned some guy on the south side of Seattle builds
up T-5's and the Jeep dealer knew 
about him. So current theory is that it's a World Class T-5. I've
flogged Superdawg a few times and if it were the wimpy version of the
T-5 I'm sure I would have broken it. I've mauled a tranny before and am
confident in my destructive abilities... ;) 
So, until it breaks, I'm suspecting I lucked out and have the World
Class version of the T-5 and loving it. =A0 FWIW, the gal paid almost
$3,000 for the tranny and new clutch. I haven't taken anything apart to
count splines or even look at the top cover to get a part number for
Brad. 
If it breaks I'll drop in the 4.0L and Aisin Warner 4spd auto I bought a
few years ago. I'll either need to change the output shaft to 23 spline,
or get a different xfr case. Or, LW, I may have one of those legendary
setups with 21 splines... it's possible, but probably not likely. I
don't think 21 splines went into FSJs, even in 83. But reshafting the
AW4 isn't too big of a deal from what I've heard. Either way I'm
probably looking at three to five bills to make the swap. But the swap
will get me fuel injection, an automatic and probably 20mpg... 
Right now I'm only getting about 14mpg... the Clifford intake and Holley
carb are not exactly a fuel efficient setup... but ohhh boy does
Superdawg howl when I get on him... you would think it's a V8 under the
hood and not a 258. It definetly has more get up and go than Old Blue
did, even when I put an Edelbrock intake/carb on him... (Old blue had
2.72's, Superdawg has 3.31's, makes a significant difference.) 
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Timex is, as you put it,
in sick bay. Trannies, transfer cases, and 
driveshafts lying in the bed. 
does pep boys sell coveralls? how about rubber gloves? 
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0You shouldn't be getting
worse mileage with the Clifford intake and the 
Holley... you should be getting BETTER mileage, unless you like to put
your foot into it a lot. You might not have it tweaked correctly, that's
entirely possible. Also, Holleys most definitely aren't known for
economy. 
it's possible that it's not dialed in correctly... No, I've actually
been pretty mellow with it. I thought about rejetting and all, but it's
a hassle and even James Blair doesn't think we can do much better with
the economy, neither does another mechanic friend who helped me with Old
blue... 
I've tried keeping my rpm's down and taking it easy... did get better
mileage, but only around 14. I am running 31's, but I'm even allowing
for a 6% error in my mileage... 
I think a Clifford manifold and TBI setup would be a fairly economical
possible alternative to the Mopar EFI kit, at least until one can come
up with $1,000. Then again, isn't the TBI kit pretty close to that? Hmm. 
I had the Holley TBI, analog setup, bought it from a guy, went to
install it and couldn't get it to fit! I called Holley and they said ya
gotta use the stock manifold... so I sold the used TBI to the Jeep
dealer for a project they were shipping to Alaska. I'd heard a few
horror stories about the Holley TBI and decided against using it. 
Tom Anhalt did the Mopar TBI kit and is happy with it... but before I
spent
that kind of money I'll just use my 4.0l. :) 
If you know of another carb I could use on the Clifford Manifold I'd be
willing 
to give it a try. I was talking with James Blair Sunday about it and the
consensus 
was that the large runners on the Clifford Intake are designed for
higher rpms (2,500 and up) 
so there wasn't much that could be done to help the economy. I was also
reading somewhere 
that the narrower intake runners on the stock 258 are much better for
low rpm torque. 
(what's peak torque at? 210 ft lbs at 1800 rpm is what I've seen...) 
Anyway, James snagged another dead Eagle and may have all the linkages I
need to put 
the manifold I got from him on along with the carb I bought off of ebay.
I still need 
a stock air cleaner and the wiring to control the manifold heater
setup... and an intake 
gasket... It sure would be nice to get better mileage, especially with
fuel costs the 
way they are. 
Either way, I'm loving my J10 Stepside... I sold my 81 300D because I'd
rather drive it! 
Fritz was a very nice Benz, low mileage, ultra clean. I just couldn't
see paying money to 
insure it, and those old Benz's are like FSJ's, they just don't take
well to sitting around. :) 
Stuff just quits working. 
I can't tell you how happy I am NOT to have to mess around with a leaky
360 V8 or a rear window. :) 
(Of course the valve cover on my 258 is one of those plastic specials...
;) I'm kicking myself 
that I didn't keep the Clifford valve cover on that yj's 258 I sold...
arggghhhh... I don't 
want to pay $150 for a valve cover!!! 
See ya in a couple weeks... let me know on the coverall / glove
situation
down there. ;) 
Otherwise I'll pick up a set before I head down. :) 
What year is Timex again? I've got an MR 253 dated March 84, it has a
section on the T-176 
and another on the NP208... You want maybe I should photocopy those
sections??? ;) 
BTW, I'm gonna cc the fsj list because this is the most technical FSJ
content I've 
typed in about two weeks... ;) 
john 
- -Doc 
- -----Original Message----- 
From: john [mailto:john-at-wagoneers.com]
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 10:56 PM
To: fariello-at-evcom.net
Subject: T-xx and spline counts 
At 09:48 PM 4/3/00 -0400, Dennis M. \"Doc\" Fariello wrote: 
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0I've got the T-18, I've
got all the major parts... 
it's going in :) 
- -Doc 
cool. Is Timex mobile right now? Or is she in sick bay? ;) I don't have
a tranny jack either, I borrow one from a mechanic friend, 
although his isn't that good either... I think I'll rent one next time
I do such work... 
I've got a spare 4.0L and Aisin Warner 4speed auto... if my NP208 in
Superdawg is 21 spline I could use it to replace my 258/T-5 (I'd heard
that the T-5 could be a 21 spline!). =A0 I'd love to get a fuel injected
4.0L Six in my Stepside... the Clifford intake and Holley carb make him
as thirsty as one of those boat anchor 360s... :) 
Otherwise to make the 4.0/4sp at swap 
=A0=A0I'll have to swap out my output shaft in the Aisin Warner to a 23
spline... or swap out the xfr case for a 21 spline input shaft... Either
way I'm looking at spending more money... :( I've been gathering up
pieces for about 4 years now... only need the TCU (transmission control
unit) and the transfer case solution and I'll have almost everything I
need. 
Of course, I'd still rather have a Diesel. :) 
john 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr
http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on
allexperts.com Pics: 
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

End of fsj-digest V1 #806
*************************